Are there any armor values in KAP, Book of Armies, Book of Knights & Ladies, etc. That people think are out of whack?

I'm asking because I'm fine tuning my piece armor to match up with the official values in the books, and might have missed some errata or comment on some of the more exotic armors.

Yeah.

Cuirbouilli should be 6 points (WARLORD, KAP 5.2), not 8. Note that the armors in KAP 5.2 explicitly include a helmet already, too.

(Although IMHO, full suits of Cuirbouilli were very rare if even existing in Medieval Western Europe, and instead this would be a full-hauberk length gambeson in my campaigns.)

Yeah.

Cuirbouilli should be 6 points (WARLORD, KAP 5.2), not 8.
But Cuirbouilli isn't 6 in KAP5.2. Hard Leather is. Cuirboilli is leather that has been treated to be harder. Now why Greg introduced a third leather option in K&L, I don't know., but he did use it extensively in Book of Armies. I had wished he had simply used suit with a little less mail, like a haubergeon, or used padded or leather leggings instead of mail in K&L to get the 8 point armor.

Is Hard Leather officially the same as cuirboilli now?





Note that the armors in KAP 5.2 explicitly include a helmet already, too.

Yup, but luckily I don't believe they specify what type of helmet. So we could assume less coverage or weaker materials with lower rated suits to match up with the the 25% helmeted rule. So someone in 4 point leather might have a padded or leather cap (1 point) instead of the steel helmet and coif that someone in 10 point mail would have.




(Although IMHO, full suits of Cuirbouilli were very rare if even existing in Medieval Western Europe,

Hard to say, as leather didn't last to long, compared to metal. I know the Romans used it to make a "economy" version of the Segmentata but no examples survived. I will say that I don't think it was as common as it became in KAP5, where it is the best protection in terms of price, and thus the default for poor knight and rich bandits.




and instead this would be a full-hauberk length gambeson in my campaigns.)

The standard gambeson historically was full hauberk length.
I see the gambeson in Warlord is worth 4 points now, instead of the 2 points it was worth as a doublet. And that a haubergeon is worth 8. So I take then that the haubergeon can replace cuirboilli on all those entires in BoA, and for poor knights?

Book of Warlord has a gambeson as being worth 4 points, but a haubergeon worth 8. Now is 25% of that is head protection, we wind up with the body portions being worth 3 for the gambeson and 3 for the haubergeon. That's Gambeson (3) + Haubergeon (3) + Head Armor (2)= 8. So the padding is now just as good as the mail? Or can we assume that there are padded laggings or some such factored into the gambeson?

I don't want to be a pain, I just want to get the official armor values clarified so I can finish the piece armor. What I got now, works, but I'd like to have it match up with everything as it currently stands, if possible.

KAP 5.2, p. 139:
Armor Type Reduction
Padded armor 2
Leather armor 4
Hard leather 6
Chainmail 10

KAP 5.2, p. 191:
Padded armor 7d.
Leather armor 15d.
Hard leather 60d.
Chainmail £2

KAP 4, p. 241:
Padded (felt or cloth, 2 pts.) 7d.
Leather (4 pts.) 15d.
Cuirbouilli (6 pts.) 60d.
Norman Chain, inc. pot helm (10 pts.) £2


Hard leather = cuirbouilli, QED.

Except that Book of Armies has 4 and 6 point Leather along with 8 point curibolli. Sometimes on the same table.
KAP4 doesn't help because KAP5 changed quite a bit with armor (unhelmeted rule, 21 point Gothic plate, etc.)

So either the 8 point cuirbolli was an intentional addition or some sort of goof.

Mind you 6 point cuirbolli would probably make a lot more sense and work out better both game wise and form my standpoint of breaking armor down into pieces. I also prefer the idea of poor knight getting an 8 point outfit with a haubergeon rather than cuirbolli. And it would make sense price wise. A haubergeon is probably in the 1.5-1.75L price range which would make it several times the price of cuirbollli (which doesn't have a price listed anywhere, supporting your theory, but if it isn't hard leather it would probably still be a lot cheaper than mail)

I'm willing to chuck the 8 point curirbolli and replace it with 8 point Haubergeon if everyone else is. Especially as it would already be consistent with the numbers I'm, getting with piece armor.

Maybe I should post a table with the various armors, incldung all the addtional one from ARMIES, WARLORD, and the one's I've added to see if the numbers look right to people?



Can we also assume that the armors listed in WARLORD also includes leg protection? That would help to explain the differences between the 2 point Jack, and 4 point leather, as well as the 2 point doublet vs the 4 point gambeson.

Except that Book of Armies has 4 and 6 point Leather along with 8 point curibolli. Sometimes on the same table.


It is the same goof as below.



KAP4 doesn't help because KAP5 changed quite a bit with armor (unhelmeted rule, 21 point Gothic plate, etc.)


Disagreed. The basis of the game has remained very much the same.



So either the 8 point cuirbolli was an intentional addition or some sort of goof.


It is a goof brought about by the fact that Greg forgot that the armor already includes helmet. (KAP 5.2, p. 143.)

So he took 6 point cuirbouilli/hard leather and added a 2 pt open helmet to it, and hey presto, 8 point cuirbouilli was born. By having two helmets.

Thus, in ARMIES, Leather 4 pts = leather without a helmet, and Leather 6 pts = leather + open helmet. But 4tps armor already includes a helmet, so you have double helmets in 6 pts leather again.


Not to mention other oddities, such as:

Cuirbouilli armor and helm (8 points)
Chain mail and open helm (10 points)

But:
Cuirbouilli armor and nasal helm (10 points)
Chain mail and nasal helm (11 points)

Somehow, adding a nasal to the open helm makes cuirbouilli as good as a full chain hauberk with an open helm. Wow. Let's hope the Saxons never find out our nasal helm technology! Not to mention giving +2 to cuirbouilli and just +1 to chain mail.

And then we have:
Reinforced chain mail and closed helm (12 points)
So you have a much more protective helmet that is a pain to wear, and you have additional reinforcements on the chainmail, and somehow, these TOGETHER add as much as the addition of the nasal guard to the open helmet (with a chainmail, or only half of what you get with a Cuirbouilli). Truly, we live in wondrous times.


This is a big reason why I hate this kind of piecemeal armor construction, since it doesn't work in KAP. You wear armor only on one part of your body, but it protects the whole of your body. There is no way that having JUST a closed helm is as good as having a full gambeson and an open helm, but that is what the system is trying to tell us...

Ironically, Knights Adventurous (3rd edition) had this piecemeal construction as well, but by keeping helmets in just two categories, open (1pt) and closed (2pts), the helmet didn't matter that much, the rest of the armor did. And yes, cuirbouilli there is explicitly 5+1 open helm = 6 pts for the complete suit.

It is the same goof as below.
It is a goof brought about by the fact that Greg forgot that the armor already includes helmet. (KAP 5.2, p. 143.)

So he took 6 point cuirbouilli/hard leather and added a 2 pt open helmet to it, and hey presto, 8 point cuirbouilli was born. By having two helmets.

Thus, in ARMIES, Leather 4 pts = leather without a helmet, and Leather 6 pts = leather + open helmet. But 4tps armor already includes a helmet, so you have double helmets in 6 pts leather again.

Okay, thanks, Now I have a basis to work from. Oh, and for the record I just started up anew game and they were all poor knight and the 8 point Haubergeon seemed much better than the 8 point cuirboilli. Much more knightly.



Not to mention other oddities, such as:

Cuirbouilli armor and helm (8 points)
Chain mail and open helm (10 points)

But:
Cuirbouilli armor and nasal helm (10 points)
Chain mail and nasal helm (11 points)

Somehow, adding a nasal to the open helm makes cuirbouilli as good as a full chain hauberk with an open helm. Wow. Let's hope the Saxons never find out our nasal helm technology! Not to mention giving +2 to cuirbouilli and just +1 to chain mail.


That's actually something I can explain with my piece armor system, at least for the mail. I'm won;t bother with the cuirbolli if it's a goof. In order to get the various pieces to add together, some have values other are not whole points. So you add up the armor and round off. So if a suit of armor was 10.25 points with an skullcap, but the nasal added 0.25, it could bump it up to 10.5 and round to 11. Much more believable that the nose piece actually being worth a full point, IMO.



And then we have:
Reinforced chain mail and closed helm (12 points)
So you have a much more protective helmet that is a pain to wear, and you have additional reinforcements on the chainmail, and somehow, these TOGETHER add as much as the addition of the nasal guard to the open helmet (with a chainmail, or only half of what you get with a Cuirbouilli). Truly, we live in wondrous times.

Again, that's where the piece armor makes sense. If the mail was worth 10.25 and the nasal bumped it up to 10.5, then it would take a full point to get to 12.




This is a big reason why I hate this kind of piecemeal armor construction, since it doesn't work in KAP. You wear armor only on one part of your body, but it protects the whole of your body. There is no way that having JUST a closed helm is as good as having a full gambeson and an open helm, but that is what the system is trying to tell us...

LOL! Ironically I had a method that did work, but I dropped it because of the new 25% unhelmeted rule (which I hate). Originally had head armor being worth about 10% of the total so a good helm wasn't worth as much as a full gambeson with leggings.




Ironically, Knights Adventurous (3rd edition) had this piecemeal construction as well, but by keeping helmets in just two categories, open (1pt) and closed (2pts), the helmet didn't matter that much, the rest of the armor did. And yes, cuirbouilli there is explicitly 5+1 open helm = 6 pts for the complete suit.

I know. That's kinda what I was basing things on, until the unhelmeted rule came out. I actually had it so an open helm was worth a point, but as you added nasal, cheekgards, faceplates, etc. to it it evolved into a closed helm, in quarter point increments. It was working pretty good too, except that it didn't match up with the 25% rule. So I revised it to make the head worth 25% of the total armor and upped the torso (to help match the values for Roman armor) to better match with the unhelmeted rule. Funny thing is, it was unnecessary, since there is nothing that stops someone in a gambeson from putting on a Great Helm if he has one, and breaking the 25% rule.

I'll post two sample builds so you can compare them


But, I can get something that works, and recreate the existing armors to values that match whats in the books, but adding a piece or two here and there.

Thanks for explaining the cuirbolli, it actually helps me a lot! In the spreadsheet I was using it's values were too close to mail for my liking. Now it works out a lot better.

Here are two sample builds for 10 point Mail Armor for comparsion, review. They should give an idea of what I'm trying to do. The nice thing about this is that I can take illustrations and work out armor values that are appropriate for Pendragon. And it would be possible to put pictures of suitats with armor ratings, and just let people pick that way, whihtout having to build thier own suits.


This is based on the head being about 25% of the armor, and the torso about 50%

Skullcap [Skull, padded] 1.5 points
Mail Coif [Skull, neck] 1 point
Hauberk, long sleeved [Shoulders, Chest, Upper Arms, Elbows, Lower Arms, Abdomen, Hips, Groin, Thighs] 3.5 points
Mail Mittons [Hands] 0.25 points
Mail Hose [Thighs, Knees, Calves] 0.75 points
Mail Sabatons [Feet] 0.25 points
Arming Doublet [Shoulders, Upper Arms, Elbows, Chest, Abdomen, Groin, Hips, Thighs] 2 points
Padded Hose [Thighs, Knees, Calves] 0.5 points
Total: 9.75 points, rounds to 10.



And this is the older one where the head is worth about 10% and the torso around 35%

Skullcap [Skull, padded] 0.75 points
Mail Coif [Skull, neck] 0.5 point
Hauberk, long sleeved [Shoulders, Chest, Upper Arms, Elbows, Lower Arms, Abdomen, Hips, Groin, Thighs] 4.5 points
Mail Mittons [Hands] 0.25 points
Mail Hose [Thighs, Knees, Calves] 2 points
Mail Sabatons [Feet] 0.5 points
Arming Doublet [Shoulders, Upper Arms, Elbows, Chest, Abdomen, Groin, Hips, Thighs] 1.25 points
Padded Hose [Thighs, Knees, Calves] 0.5 points
Total: 10.25 points, rounds to 10.



Anybody like either of them?

I truly dislike any system that has fractions.

Keep it easy-peasy...
Chainmail Hauberk - including open face helm = 10 pts
Advanced Chainmail Hauberk - now with nasal and more facial protection = 12 pts

BUT - I know that some folk enjoy the idea of having bits and bobs of different armor - so... ok.

I truly dislike any system that has fractions.

Keep it easy-peasy...
Chainmail Hauberk - including open face helm = 10 pts
Advanced Chainmail Hauberk - now with nasal and more facial protection = 12 pts

BUT - I know that some folk enjoy the idea of having bits and bobs of different armor - so... ok.

The nice thing is, since we use the total protection score, and don't bother with hit locations, the method I used could do both. Or, in other words, If I have a set of Celtic Mail and it's rated at 8 points, and a Roman Lorica Hatama and it's rated at 9 points, you could still use that suits and values without needing to bother with how I came up with those numbers. We could put those on a table with prices and it would work just fine, even if someone didn't know what chausses or sabatons were.

All you need to know is the protection, DEX penalty, availability and price.

Here is a table with some (most?) of the armor sets. I've got to go through the Book of Armies again. Entries in Italics are sets I made up from "reverse engineering" illustrations of armored warriors. Some entries from official sources have been adjusted a little in terms of describing headgear or limb armor, usually to rationalize why it was slightly better or worse than something very similar (i.e doublet, vs. jack, vs. gambeson). Cuirbouilli is assumed to be 6 points per Morien.

Doublet (2 points)
Leather Jack (2 points)
Gambeson with Padded Leggings and Skullcap (4 points)
Quilted Armor with Padded Leggings and Skullcap (4 points)
Leather Armor with Skullcap (4 points)
Leather Armor with Leather Hood & Mantel (4 points)
Hard Leather Armor (Cuirboilli) with Skullcap (6 point)
Jack of Plate with Skullcap (8 points)
Haubergeon with Skullcap (8 points)
Saxon Haubergeon with Halfmask Helm (9 points)
Celtic Coat of Mail with reinforced shoulders and Lobstertail Helm (9 points)
Roman Lorica Hamata (Mail) with Lobster Tail Helm (9 points)
Norman Mail with Skullcap(10 points)
Improved Normal Mail with Nasal Helm (11 points)
Roman Lorica Squamata (Scale) with Lobstertail Helm (11 points)
Reinforced Mail with Heame (12 points)
Byzantine Cataphacti Light Scale with Open helm (12 points)
Roman Lorica (12 points)
Lorica Segmentata with arm guards, greaves, and Lobster Tail Helm (12 points)
Improved Reinforced Mail with Heaume (13 points)
Partial Plate and Heaume(14 point)
Brigadine with Haume (14 points)
Byzantine Cataphacti Heavy Scale with Closed helm (14 points, but see next entry)
Roman/Cataphacti Full Lorica Squamata (Scale) with additional shoulder protection, armguards, greaves, facemask and lobstertail Helm (14 points)
Roman Lamellar (14 points, but see next entry)
Lorica Segmentata with arm guards, leg guards, Lobster Tail Helm (12 points) and facemask (14 points)
Plate Armor with Visored Hem (16 points)
Reinforced Plate with Houndskull Helm (18 points)
Gothic Plate with Armet Helm (20 points)
Gothic Plate with Frog Mouth helm (21 points, but the Frog Mouth is a Jousting Helm)
Gothic Plate with Tilting Pieces and Frong Mouth Helm (TBA)

I disagree especially with Lorica Squamata and Lorica Segmentata. Neither of the two should give significantly better protection than Lorica Hamata, and definitely should be worse than Norman mail hauberk with a nasal helm. Lorica Hamata in my humble opinion should be equivalent to a haubergeon at best, since it has less upper arm protection, but those cheekpieces add quite nicely to face protection. Admittedly, I would be ready to call it a draw at 8 points, since the hauberk adds sleeves and leg protection, and the mail hood covers the throat and chin, too, something Roman helmets don't do. So there should be a bigger difference than just 1 point.

Of course, Lorica Segmentata hasn't been in use for centuries by Uther's time, so I would be just as happy to not see it at all.

I disagree especially with Lorica Squamata and Lorica Segmentata. Neither of the two should give significantly better protection than Lorica Hamata, and definitely should be worse than Norman mail hauberk with a nasal helm.


I mostly agree with you, just ask Karnwulf! I have a hard time believing that the sementata can give protection in the 12-14 range while leaving the so much bare skin.
The higher values for the Segmentata and Squamata are partially due to Greg's writeups in KAP4, and Boof of Armies. I really wanted to put them a bit lower. I was only able to get to the higher values when I added the full lamaller arm sleeves and leggings, and a faceplate.

The Hamata is actually much closer to protection to the Squamata and Segmenta that it appears. The wrtueup on the table for the Hamata is with bare limbs, while the ones for the Squmata and Segmentatsa include the lamellar limb coverings and, in the case of the Squamata a full faceplate. If you take away those extra limb and face plates, the values for the other Lorica drop down considerably.

My goals were to match what was in the Book of armies, and try to fix it so that all three Loricas were essentially identical, except for the weapon vs. armor adjustments).





Lorica Hamata in my humble opinion should be equivalent to a haubergeon at best, since it has less upper arm protection, but those cheekpieces add quite nicely to face protection. Admittedly, I would be ready to call it a draw at 8 points, since the hauberk adds sleeves and leg protection, and the mail hood covers the throat and chin, too, something Roman helmets don't do. So there should be a bigger difference than just 1 point.

I gave the advantage to the lorica for two reasons. First, most version of it I see actually are hauberk length. Secondly, most versions also double up the armor on part of the shoulders and chest.

But if you were to go with a shorter version of the lorica, with no sleeves, it would work out to 7 points by my piece armor method, and probably 6 without those cheek plates you like, after rounding.

Oh, and that's one of the nice things about the piece armor method. You can build a slightly different version of a lorica hamata and use it instead of or in conjunction with someone else's writeup. Or, if we could get a consensus on armor values we could pick what people think to be the best version of something to go with.

One limitation that I am working under is that I am, at least so far, trying to give the armor values that match with existing KAP ratings. Often against my own preferences.

If I were going to throw out the existing scores and go with what I though the number should be, some of the armors would have different values. For example, the Lorica Hamata.

I think that Greg meant the Lorica in the Book of Armies to be the Hamata, and he gave it the same stats as reinforced Mail. Then he figured the Sementata was superior (a common belief is that plate is always superior to mail, and it has only recently been challenged), and made it the 14 point lamellar armor. At least that is what I think he meant in Book of Armies. So I came up with a method that will let someone reach those values. They will have to add every scrap of addtional armor they Romans ever had to do it, but they can hit those numbers. But if I didn't have to think about Book of Armies, I'd have written up 7-9 point Loricas.






Of course, Lorica Segmentata hasn't been in use for centuries by Uther's time, so I would be just as happy to not see it at all.


Well, Greg does included in it several books. Historical accountancy isn't exactly a strong point in KAP. There wasn't any Gothic Plate in the 5th century, either.

Oh, and if you see it or not depends a lot of the GM. If he doesn;t have any Romans around wearing it, then it won't be there to be seen.

I disagree especially with Lorica Squamata and Lorica Segmentata. Neither of the two should give significantly better protection than Lorica Hamata, and definitely should be worse than Norman mail hauberk with a nasal helm. Lorica Hamata in my humble opinion should be equivalent to a haubergeon at best, since it has less upper arm protection, but those cheekpieces add quite nicely to face protection. Admittedly, I would be ready to call it a draw at 8 points, since the hauberk adds sleeves and leg protection, and the mail hood covers the throat and chin, too, something Roman helmets don't do. So there should be a bigger difference than just 1 point.

I disagree about Segmentata. It should be considered Partial Plate, perhaps a point less because of all the exposed extremities. Sqaumata is scale, and should be treated as such. Scale in Pendragon has pretty much always been regarded as superior to chain. No arms, so maybe a point or two less for this.

As for Hamata, it has to be distinguished. Are we talking about the Republican Hamata, sans arm protection, but with reinforced shoulders, or are we talking about the Late-Roman Hamata which IS a haubergeon?


Of course, Lorica Segmentata hasn't been in use for centuries by Uther's time, so I would be just as happy to not see it at all.

Actually there is no evidence one way or the other. Some had to last much later than evidence suggests. If it was as widespread as it initially seems to have been it can't all have simply vanished, and we don't seem to be finding enough at battlefield sites to account.

Its an older supplement (Boy King), but we do have Legionarius as a social class. They generally get Leather, but I could see a Legionarius walking out of a town to defend it in his family heirloom, a preserved Segmentata. Certainly not Matter, but fun!

And to be fair, sometimes I prefer to try a game that's more like Warlord, and less like Mallory. :D:D

SDLeary

I disagree about Segmentata. It should be considered Partial Plate, perhaps a point less because of all the exposed extremities. Sqaumata is scale, and should be treated as such. Scale in Pendragon has pretty much always been regarded as superior to chain. No arms, so maybe a point or two less for this.

That's how Greg seeemed to regard it in in Book of Armies with the 14 point Lamellar. I think it should be less because of the exposed extremities, poor lower abdomen protection, lack of a mail coif or bishops mantel, and open face helm vs. closed visored helm.



As for Hamata, it has to be distinguished. Are we talking about the Republican Hamata, sans arm protection, but with reinforced shoulders, or are we talking about the Late-Roman Hamata which IS a haubergeon?

LOL! Exactly. And there are varations in between, I've seen Hamatas with everything from bare shoulders with no reinforcement to to full sleeves, with the entire upper chest reinforced.

The good news, from my point of view, is that I can stat up either, or both.




Actually there is no evidence one way or the other. Some had to last much later than evidence suggests. If it was as widespread as it initially seems to have been it can't all have simply vanished, and we don't seem to be finding enough at battlefield sites to account.

Check out the late Roman Cataphacti. The often have lamellar plate mancia on the arms, not scale



Its an older supplement (Boy King), but we do have Legionarius as a social class. They generally get Leather, but I could see a Legionarius walking out of a town to defend it in his family heirloom, a preserved Segmentata. Certainly not Matter, but fun!

But it's soft leather and should have been hard/cuirboilli.



And to be fair, sometimes I prefer to try a game that's more like Warlord, and less like Mallory. :D:D
SDLeary

Exaclty. KAP1 was kinda a mix of Mallory and other, especially Welsh, sources While Greg certainly shifted more towards Mallory with KAP3-4, he also has also moved to incorporate other sources and versions in KAP5. For instance more Geoffrey of Monmouth. That's why it goes from Ambrosius Aurelianus to Aurelius Ambrosius. Setting the groundwork for a moreHstorical-Roman interpretation isn't necessarily a bad thing. There could even been room for doing soemthing like that with Aurelius or even Riothamus.

BTW, just to clarify, I'm willing to adjust values and even toss out what in Book of Armies if thats they way people want to go with this. Currently, I'm trying to keep things consistent with previous KAP5 publications, but I'm flexible on this. I could even make a version of my spreadhseet avaible so people could mess with it and fine tune it.

Ideally, if we can come to some sort of consensus about particular suits of armor, maybe I could expand this into a reference book. With (public domain) illustrations of the suits and lines pointing to the pieces and their value.

I disagree about Segmentata. It should be considered Partial Plate, perhaps a point less because of all the exposed extremities. Sqaumata is scale, and should be treated as such. Scale in Pendragon has pretty much always been regarded as superior to chain. No arms, so maybe a point or two less for this.


Coverage is totally different, and I think you give Segmentata way too much benefit in protection. Both mail and segmentata are proof against cuts. Mail might be more vulnerable to crushing (maces), but also has more padding underneath. But it is the arms especially, and legs secondarily, where Segmentata really falls down in the rankings. Not to mention all the openings on the throat, armpits, etc. Segmentata doesn't even cover the groin.

Now Atgxtg pointed out that in his kit, there are manica and all other sorts of pieces, but it still leaves plenty of gaps, while Partial Plate has plate OVER chain OVER padding. Lorica Segmentata would be equivalent, IMHO, to something like Brigandine doublet, by itself. But the Partial Plate would be much more than that.







As for Hamata, it has to be distinguished. Are we talking about the Republican Hamata, sans arm protection, but with reinforced shoulders, or are we talking about the Late-Roman Hamata which IS a haubergeon?


True. All the more reason to simplify and say that lorica hamata = haubergeon.

Now Atgxtg pointed out that in his kit, there are manica and all other sorts of pieces, but it still leaves plenty of gaps, [.quote]

Yeah, I really don't like it at 14 points. IMO it should be worth less than reinforced mail, let alone partial plate. I had to factor in an overlapping bonus for the lames to make it work out. But I did so to keep in consistent with it's value in KAP. In my calculations, it those exposed thighs and partially exposed hips that "do it in" compared to other armors. It looses 20% of it's protection there.

[quote]]while Partial Plate has plate OVER chain OVER padding.

And sometimes more mail over the plate (bishops mantel) and possible more plate (a skullcap underneath a Great Helm).



Lorica Segmentata would be equivalent, IMHO, to something like Brigandine doublet, by itself. But the Partial Plate would be much more than that.

You mean like a Jack of Plate? Maybe not even that, since the brigadine has two layers of leather. Then again the senmentata overlaps the plates and gives better shoulder protection. So it's close. BTW, in my spreadsheet the Jack of Plate (Birigadine Doublet) by itself works out at 8.25 point in the spreadsheet and the Segmentata chest piece has a value of 6.








True. All the more reason to simplify and say that lorica hamata = haubergeon.

It's a possibility.

One idea I had was that we could both simplify the armor and add more versatility if we gave armor a base value and then adjusted for coverage, and reinforcement, giving us a range. Realistically an armorer could turn a haubergeon into a hauberk and vice versa, and turn mail into reinforced mail or partial pate just by adding or substituting pieces. This could all be boiled down to a cost per the the next point of armor, with caps set by the Period. So a haubergeon could be mail with 75% coverage, an reinforced mail could be mail with +2 reinforcement. That's basically what we are doing.

That's how Greg seeemed to regard it in in Book of Armies with the 14 point Lamellar. I think it should be less because of the exposed extremities, poor lower abdomen protection, lack of a mail coif or bishops mantel, and open face helm vs. closed visored helm.

Dont confuse Lamellar and Laminar.

Lamellar is heavy scales where the scales are fastened to each other at both ends with overlapping. This creates something that is stiffer than scale, but doesn't require the smithing resources that actual plate requires. Lamellar is generally the type of armor that Parthian, Sassanid, and Late Roman Clibanarii wore as a cuirass.

Laminar is what a Segmentata is, along with manica and equivalent construction cuisses are.

Assuming equivalent padding, Segmentata should be superior to Lamellar :D



But it's soft leather and should have been hard/cuirboilli.

Perhaps. It could also be that he did intend soft armor for the Legenarius, with cuirboilli for their commanders (centurions??), who would probably be equivalent of Squires. Actual officers having metal armor of some type.


I'm actually glad that there is a bunch more material info in Book of Armies. I haven't picked that one up because I thought it was literally just army lists for the various factions.

SDLeary

Dont confuse Lamellar and Laminar. [/quoute]

Greg used Lamellar in the Book of Armies. Mind you, he also used Compound Bow in Book of Knight & Ladies, which I know was supposed to be Composite Bow.




[quote]
Assuming equivalent padding, Segmentata should be superior to Lamellar :D

Maybe, it doesn't matter that much if there is a lot of exposed flesh.



[quote]
Perhaps. It could also be that he did intend soft armor for the Legenarius, with cuirboilli for their commanders (centurions??), who would probably be equivalent of Squires. Actual officers having metal armor of some type. [quote]

Maybe. I can only guess about things he indended, except for those few things where he revealed his intentions to me, or to others who have revealed it. Error, typo, plan in the works, experiment, placeholder?

[quote]
I'm actually glad that there is a bunch more material info in Book of Armies. I haven't picked that one up because I thought it was literally just army lists for the various factions.

SDLeary

Yes there is, and yes that's what it is. Book of Armies is pages and pages of Armies, group so that you can roll a d20 to see who the PK are fighting. Basically the same format as the samples in the Book of Battle. But there are a lot of unusual entries and people wearing some odd armors, sometimes with different values. Some examples:

Spearmen in Leather Jack (2 points)
Roman infantry in a Lorica (12 points, type of Lorica unspecified) with a Heavy (8 point) shield.
The Black Marchers of Lindsey (10 point mail and 9 point magic)
Merlin (36 points of magic)
Picts (6 points of Tatoos. Well they're not Merlin)
Footmen (in 2 point padding)
Footmen (in 3 point padding)
White Dracon Warriors (in 20 point dragon hide)
Crossbowmen (2 point helmet)
Cambirans with Small Shields (4 points)
Alpine Mercenaries (in 4 point Quilt)
Barbarian Spearmen (in 5 point padding and helm)
Ethopian Infantry with Long (10 point) shields
Archers in (Helm and Padding worth 4 points)
Archers in (Helm and Quilt, worth 5 points)
Herdsmen (Thick Woolens 2 points)
Irish Hero (35 magic)
Broad shouldered Spearmen (Super Chain 20 points)
The Raven Host (Magic Feather cape 18 points)

and that's just scratching the surface.


Also, Gothic Plate is listed as 18 (not 21, but lacks the frog helm), and it has leather(6) and cuirbolli (8) on the same page.

Now my rationalization for some of the discrepancies is difference in coverage. Hence a Leather Jack protect for 2 points while a Full suit of Leather (w/helm) is worth 4.

Coverage is totally different, and I think you give Segmentata way too much benefit in protection. Both mail and segmentata are proof against cuts. Mail might be more vulnerable to crushing (maces), but also has more padding underneath. But it is the arms especially, and legs secondarily, where Segmentata really falls down in the rankings. Not to mention all the openings on the throat, armpits, etc. Segmentata doesn't even cover the groin.

Segmentata was worn over and Aketon, or so the current wisdom proclaims. I think I agree as the leather straps that held hoops together with the necessary rivets would have been way too uncomfortable otherwise. To the point I think that troopers would have discarded it.


Now Atgxtg pointed out that in his kit, there are manica and all other sorts of pieces, but it still leaves plenty of gaps, while Partial Plate has plate OVER chain OVER padding. Lorica Segmentata would be equivalent, IMHO, to something like Brigandine doublet, by itself. But the Partial Plate would be much more than that.

While it's true that at points in history, a cuirass was worn over a hauberk or haubergon, that is not how Plate and Mail (partial plate) is normally seen constructed. You have an arming doublet that has buckles at the shoulders. to these are attached mail sleeves, with a tail that is long enough to cover the armpit opening on a cuirass. You also have hose that have a garter system sewn on, and mail leggings in much the same fashion as the sleeves attached. So no overlapping of mail and plate on the torso. If there was no plate skirt, then a skirt of chain may also be belted around the waist.

Now a Brigandine (Heavy Scale) was worn over chain, but also worn in place of a cuirass in the method outlined above.

SDLeary

EDIT: in this post I have confused Partial Plate, and Plate, but the concept remains. And a Segmentata is essentially a form of plate cuirass.

Segmentata was worn over and Aketon, or so the current wisdom proclaims. I think I agree as the leather straps that held hoops together with the necessary rivets would have been way too uncomfortable otherwise. To the point I think that troopers would have discarded it.

It was worn over something. I think we all can probably agree on that. But that's factored into all the metal armors in Pendragon.




While it's true that at points in history, a cuirass was worn over a hauberk or haubergon, that is not how Plate and Mail (partial plate) is normally seen constructed. You have an arming doublet that has buckles at the shoulders. to these are attached mail sleeves, with a tail that is long enough to cover the armpit opening on a cuirass. You also have hose that have a garter system sewn on, and mail leggings in much the same fashion as the sleeves attached. So no overlapping of mail and plate on the torso. [/qote]

Unless they wore a bishops mantel. So there were example of it. And the head often had 4 layers of protection (Helmet, skullcap, mail, and padding)


[quote]
If there was no plate skirt, then a skirt of chain may also be belted around the waist.

Yup, and it might have partially overlapped with the armor on the upper leg.

Now a Brigandine (Heavy Scale)/



Brigadine isn't scale per say. It's plate riveted between two pieces of leather (or cloth). Close to scale but probably a little better due to the extra layer. On the other hand, it would probably be a bit more flexible, and have some spots between the plates where the only protection was double leather, so that might even it out a bit with scale. In the spreadsheet they work out fairly close.
In game term's I might give maces the extra die against Brigadine but not against scale.

was worn over chain, but also worn in place of a cuirass in the method outlined above.

Yeah and again it comes down to which build you go with. Brigadine could be worn without the mail, and that is the way I have it listed. My reason ford oing it that way was so that I could save the armor over mail suits for Greg's 22 point plate that is -10 to combat skills. To keep things simple, and make it easy not to use the 22 point option, I simply made it 16 point plate with additional points of 6 points of mail underneath. That way I didn't have to change plate to get to the 22 points.

They have to update this site, there seems to be issues when quoting. Not sure who's quoting who anymore. :)


Brigadine isn't scale per say. It's plate riveted between two pieces of leather (or cloth). Close to scale but probably a little better due to the extra layer. On the other hand, it would probably be a bit more flexible, and have some spots between the plates where the only protection was double leather, so that might even it out a bit with scale. In the spreadsheet they work out fairly close.
In game term's I might give maces the extra die against Brigadine but not against scale.

Its not Plate, but its pieces of metal that can vary between the size used on Scale, and larger pieces that would probably be called Splint armor if it were on the outside of the garment.

A common form of the armor from Europe had plates that were about the size of Lamellar and overlapped (like scale), with larger pieces to cover each breast (one to each side of the front seam). Eastern forms may lack these larger plates over the breast.

The Visby Brigandine is an example of a brigandine that used larger plates about the size of splints. This form certainly provide better protection from concussive blows, but would need an aid to get on as it cinched up the back and at the shoulders.

The later Jack of Plates was the same concept, but tended to use even smaller lames or scales because it was generally heavily waisted and tailored.

Now, to keep things simple, it should probably be the same as scale.


Yeah and again it comes down to which build you go with. Brigadine could be worn without the mail, and that is the way I have it listed. My reason ford oing it that way was so that I could save the armor over mail suits for Greg's 22 point plate that is -10 to combat skills. To keep things simple, and make it easy not to use the 22 point option, I simply made it 16 point plate with additional points of 6 points of mail underneath. That way I didn't have to change plate to get to the 22 points.

Yeah, I can see that. I wonder though if Greg wasn't talking about various stages of tournament armor for the revised plate. That would certainly explain the frog-mouth. Do you or Morien have a link to that discussion?

SDLeary

They have to update this site, there seems to be issues when quoting. Not sure who's quoting who anymore. :)

That could be my fault to some extent.




Its not Plate

Yeah it is, at least some of the time. Brigadine was often made out of used plate armor. Someone's breastplate got damaged? Well then they (or their widow) replaced that piece and the armorer used it to make brigadine. [/quote]


that would probably be called Splint armor if it were on the outside of the garment.
Although functionally similar, , there are differences. Brigadine used larger plates, was riveted, and had a second layer of leather or padding.





A common form of the armor from Europe had plates that were about the size of Lamellar and overlapped (like scale), with larger pieces to cover each breast (one to each side of the front seam). Eastern forms may lack these larger plates over the breast.

The Visby Brigandine is an example of a brigandine that used larger plates about the size of splints. This form certainly provide better protection from concussive blows, but would need an aid to get on as it cinched up the back and at the shoulders.

The later Jack of Plates was the same concept, but tended to use even smaller lames or scales because it was generally heavily waisted and tailored.

Now, to keep things simple, it should probably be the same as scale. [quote]

The mostly do. The reason why the Jack of Plate has a lower value on the table is because it is just a Jack and helmet, and it just covers the torso, wheras Brigadine is considered to be part of a set of armor.
The next time I list suits I'll describe them a little better.
I think that for the most part you, Morien and I are in agreement on things, when were are talking about the same thing. Most of our disagreements are because we are thinking of different builds of similar armor. So next time I'll give a better description so we can all be on the same page. I'll post version of the loricas with and without the extra pieces so we can compare how they were normally worn with the 12 and 14 point versions in Book of Armies.

And that way we can also decide on a common version of the armors for KAP.



[quote]
Yeah, I can see that. I wonder though if Greg wasn't talking about various stages of tournament armor for the revised plate. That would certainly explain the frog-mouth. Do you or Morien have a link to that discussion?

No he wasn't taking about Jousting plate, since it has a -10 penalty if you are using a shield. As for a link, it would lead back to http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecarus/forum/showthread.php?913-Armour-upgrades-from-BoKLhere. Greg's 22 point plate was something he posted on the first page. Not much to go on, and far from definitive.

Here is an updated and more detailed list of armor, with pieces, coverage and protection scores. Total Protection has been rounded off. It's only partially complete.I'll add the other builds to this as wel go along, but I though this would be nice to help us to agree on just what each ""suit" is.

One thing worth noting is that, after looking t some of these builds side by side, I'm convinced that Morien is right in that the Lorica Hamata, the Hauberogon, and various other Mail shirt are close enough to be the same thing under different names.

I'd also like to field the possibility that Loricas (or Haubergeons) with significant reinforcement on the upper chest and shoulders could be considered "Reinforced Haubergeons" and be worth 9 points.

I put some other notes with the relevant builds. Hopefully this way we can agree on what we are disagreeing about.

Oh, and thanks for the input. It really helps me to make this better.


Arming Doublet/Gambeson (2 points)
Arming Doublet ( Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2

Leather Jack (2 points)
Leather Jack ( Sh (half), Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp (half)) 1.5 points


Gambeson (4 points)
Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
Padded Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5


Quilted Armor (4 points)
Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
Quilted Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
Quklited Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5

Leather Armor (4 points)
Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
Leather Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
Soft Leather Leggins (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5

Leather Armor, Hooded (4 points)
Leather Hood and Mantel (Sk, Nk, Ch (half), Sh (half)) 1
Leather Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
Soft Leather Leggins (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5


Hard Leather Armor/Cuirbouilli (6 points)
Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
Hard Leather Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 3.25
Hard Leather Leggins (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 1.25


Jack of Plate ( 8 or10 points)
Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
Jack of Plate (Sh (half), Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp (half)) 6.75 or 8.25 (single or double leather?)
Note: Value depends on if it is a single or double layer of leather or padded.


Haubergeon (8 points)
Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
Haubergeon (Sh, Ch, Ua, Ab, Hp, Th (Partial)) 3
Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5


Saxon Haubergeon with Halfmask (8 points)
Halfmask Helm, padded (Sk) 1.75
Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
Haubergeon (Sh, Ch, Ua, Ab, Hp, Th (Partial)) 3
Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
Note: Change in Helm isn’t enough to make a difference here. So we either have to improve this is some way or drop it down to 10 points.


Celtic Reinforced Mail (8 points)
Lobstertail Skullcap, padded (Sk, Fa (partial. cheekplates), Nk (back) 2
Lorica Hamata (Sh, Ua (half), Ch (x1.25), Ab, Hp, Gr, Th (Half)) 3.25
Gambeson, short sleeved (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 1.75
Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
Leather Shoes (Ft) 0.25
Notes: Taken from an illustration. Upon reexamination, the reinforcement is less than the example I used for the Hamata, armor reduced.
I also don’t like the leather shoes in this, as I didn’t include them in the other suits up to now, and they certainly would have had shoes. Fortunately, the shoes don’t make a difference here, so we can take them out, or add them to the prior builds.


Lorica Hamata (9 points)
Roman Helm, padded (Sk, Fa (partial. cheekplates), Nk (back) 2.5
Lorica Hamata (Sh(x2), Ua (half), Ch (x1.75), Ab, Hp, Gr, Th (Half)) 4
Gambeson, short sleeved (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 1.75
Bezainted Belt/Shirt (Hips (partial) Groin, Thighs (Partial)) 0.25
Notes: Higher value that Haubergeon due to the extra layer of mail over the shoulders and chest. Upon reflection this is probably more of an extreme case, and dropping this down to 8 point with the haubergeon makes sense.
After seeing the stats for the full Hauberk, next to this, I deifnatly think the Hatmata needs to be reduced a bit, 3.25 max, and for an extreme example. So puttingh all the various Celtic, Saxon, and other mail short sleeved mail shirts into the 8 point Haubergeon range is fine with me.
Could add a “reinforced” Haubergeon at a higher cost to reflect this, if we wanted to.


Early Norman Mail (10 points)
Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
Hauberk,long sleeved (Sh, Ch, UpA, El, Lr A, Ab, Hp, Gr, Th) 3.5
Mail Mittons (Hands) 0.25
Mail Hose (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.75
Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
Mail Sabatons (Feet) 0.25


Improved Norman Mail (11 points)
Skullcap with Nasal, padded (Sk, Fa (partial)) 1.75
Mail Coif with avential over lower face (Sk, (Fa (partial) Nk) 1.25
Hauberk,long sleeved (Sh, Ch, UpA, El, Lr A, Ab, Hp, Gr, Th) 3.5
Mail Mittons (Hands) 0.25
Mail Hose (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.75
Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
Mail Sabatons (Feet) 0.25
Note: Currently, this only works out to 10.25 points. I can add a quarter point of this somewhere, probably by making the coif a little bigger.

Lorica Segmentata (11 points)-the version most people think about
Roman Helm, padded (Sk, Fa (partial cheekplates), Nk (back) 2.5
Lorica Segmentata (Shoulders, Chest, Abdomen) 6
Gambeson, short sleeved (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 1.75
Cintas&Cingium (Bezainted Belt/Skirt) (Hips (partial) Groin, Thighs (Partial)) 0.25
Notes: Probably should only get partial shoulder, which would drop this down to 10 points.
The Lorica gets a layering bonus and leather backing. Would be about 4 points, the same as the Hamata, without those modifiers. So I could see dropping this down to 8 or 9, and then use the various "add on" pieces to get to the higher version in the Book of Armies.




Reinforced Mail (12 points)
Heaume Skull, Face, Neck (w/padding) 3.5
Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
Hauberk,long sleeved (Sh, Ch, UpA, El, Lr A, Ab, Hp, Gr, Th) 3.5
Mail Mittons (Hands) 0.25
Aillettes (Shoulders or Neck) 0.25
Mail Hose (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.75
Plate Poleyrns, small Knees 0.25
Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
Mail Sabatons (Feet) 0.25

Partial Plate/Combination Armor (14 points)
Heaume Skull, Face, Neck (w/padding) 3.5
Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
Hauberk,long sleeved (Sh, Ch, UpA, El, Lr A, Ab, Hp, Gr, Th) 3.5
Spaulders (Shoulders) 0.5
Rerebraces (Upper Arms) 0.25
Couters (Elbows) 0
Vambraces (Forearms) 0.25
Gantlets (Hands) 0.25
Cuisses (Thighs) 0.75
Poleyns (Knees) 0.25
Greaves (Calves) 0.5
Sabatons (Feet) 0.25
Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5


Plate (16 points)
Visored Helm, padded ( Skull, Face, Neck (back)) 3
Bishops Mantel (Nk, Ch (partial) Shoulders (partial)) or Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
Gorget (Neck, front (throat)) 0.25
Breastplate (Chest (front), Abdomen (front)) 1.75
Backplate (Chest (back), Abdomen (back)) 1.75
Spaulders (Shoulders) 0.5
Rerebraces (Upper Arms) 0.25
Couters (Elbows) 0
Vambraces (Forearms) 0.25
Gantlets (Hands) 0.25
Faulds Hips, partial Abdomen 1.75
Tassets (Upper Thighs) 0.25
Cutlet (Buttocks) 0.5
Cuisses (Thighs) 0.75
Poleyns (Knees) 0.25
Greaves (Calves) 0.5
Sabatons (Feet) 0.25
Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
Notes: Lots of ways to build this. Couters are currently at 0 points, but I'll probably bump them up to 0.25, which would work this out to exactly 16 points of protection.



Okay, all set for feedback. Will add more armors to this as we go along

Here is an updated and more detailed list of armor, with pieces, coverage and protection scores. Total Protection has been rounded off. It's only partially complete.I'll add the other builds to this as wel go along, but I though this would be nice to help us to agree on just what each ""suit" is.

MUCH SNIPPAGE

Reinforced Mail (12 points)
** bits and bobs**

Plate (16 points)
** bits and bobs**

Okay, all set for feedback. Will add more armors to this as we go along
First - LOVE IT!

But, one(two) question(s).
Where did Partial Plate or a Coat of Plates go?
Also, what about Brigandine?

Think the armor found at the Battle of Visby.

Thanks.

First - LOVE IT![quotwe]

Nice to know that there are those who do.

[QUOTE=SirUkpyr;26285]
But, one(two) question(s).
Where did Partial Plate or a Coat of Plates go?

Nowhere. I just haven't got the builds for those ready yet. I believe Partial Plate is still coming up a bit short in the protection rating.



Also, what about Brigandine?

Think the armor found at the Battle of Visby.

I have it, but haven't finished a suit of it yet. Same with Scale/Lorica Squamata. Those Roman armors are driving me nuts, and I could have walked the distance. I'm hoping to come up with light version that match up n the 8-10 range and heavy 12-14 point version with addtional pieces that match up with GPC and Boof of Armies.

I'll try to finish it the missing entries tonight, add in gothic plate, maybe see about the tilting pieces. Oh, and go though Book of Armies and see what I've missed.

I just wanted to try and get us all talking about the same armor so we can work though differences in opinions and get a nice master table of armor that we can all work with. Plus it's much easeri to adjust numubers now and adapt than finish it an dhave to go back and redo everything after people see it and point out the bugs.



Thanks.

Thank you. I't nice to know this isn't being done in vain.

It is useless to try and match the inflated Roman armor values in GPC and ARMIES: they very much have the 'katana coolness factor' in them, IMHO.

Or skills, for that matter. Just take look at the Cataphracti (GPC, p. 379). These guys are better Lancers than almost all Round Table Knights (save for mature Lancelot, Old Lamorak, and Old Gawaine), and at the time of the Roman War, they are BETTER than Lancelot himself. And there are whole units worth of them. ARMIES went to the other extreme with them (Lance 15 and Mace 10 with 4d6 damage is way too little for these guys, they are supposed to be highly trained, elite cavalrymen, but not the best knights ever), but then added The Last True Century who could duel RTK knights and win.

It is useless to try and match the inflated Roman armor values in GPC and ARMIES: they very much have the 'katana coolness factor' in them, IMHO.

Oh, I haven't given up hope. I think the armguard, leg guard and face mask can get it up to 12 points. It will be a histroically accruate build, if a historically rare one. And we can drop back to a 8 point build for "normal" Romans.



Or skills, for that matter. Just take look at the Cataphracti (GPC, p. 379). These guys are better Lancers than almost all Round Table Knights (save for mature Lancelot, Old Lamorak, and Old Gawaine), and at the time of the Roman War, they are BETTER than Lancelot himself.

Lance 27. Yeah, I don't think there are many people around with that. They are described as an elite force, so they are probably not the common Cataphacti, but even so. Af for their being better than Lancelot during the Roman War, well I think Greg went too far in the other direction there. KAP5 Young Lance isn't all that fantastic. He's good, but certainly not good enough to be undefeated, or unbeatable.




And there are whole units worth of them.[//quote]
Probably not. They even have the superior armor upgrade, too. I could see there being ONE unit like this, and that the stats aren;t exactly indicative of the rest of the cataphatic. But that alsomakes them a poor choce for a inclusion.

[quote]
ARMIES went to the other extreme with them (Lance 15 and Mace 10 with 4d6 damage is way too little for these guys, they are supposed to be highly trained, elite cavalrymen, but not the best knights ever), but then added The Last True Century who could duel RTK knights and win.

Yeah. Armies has a lot of inconsistencies. What I wish we had was something similar to how they did up the Knight stats. Basically a scale of Quality for enemy troops "Ordinaty, Good, Notable, et.) that you could reverce to get skills. Say in a 5 (Unskilled) to 25 (Master) range.

I don't mind the Last True Century. They are a unique unit and not something that should appear more than once in a campaign, if at all.


Part of the trouble with Armies is that it's a fine line between too little and too much. Most PKs tend to get their main knightly skills (Sword, Lance, Horsemanship) to 20 ASAP. So opponents below 15 sklll aren't much fo a threat,especially if on foot. So the Last Century needs a 25 skill just to end up with a 20. I guess BoA 2.0 went to the other extreme. Maybe we should average the two?