Several people's comment got me thinking about the various editions.

I've had 3rd, 4th and 5th, and run 4th and 5th, tho' I've read 1st as well (and have The Pendragon Campaign and Noble's Book from second?)...

And thought it might be nice to share our thoughts about the various editions.

In all seriousness, I've run mostly 4th, and found 3rd fully compatible. 3rd + Knights Adventurous seems to be fully in the 4th Core, along with the magic system. Personally, I use 4th + the increased dice for as-yet unplayed PC-detail-level squires (as in CGen, and in

I didn't like 5th ed rules from the get go... I disliked the derandomizing of Character Gen, I dislike the removal of the various other homelands from the core, and the removal of magicians and the magic system. I especially disliked the removal of the option for squires as PC's. I often had players who opted to play 16-18yo squires who were not overly close to qualifying.

Mechanically, outside of CG and magic, 5th looks very much like 4th, so no major differences there. My players, much like me, rejected 5th. On the other hand, I like GPC... it's the best campaign module of the ones I've got.

So, what do y'all think?

I think your thoughts pretty much match my own experience with 4th and 5th edition. 4th edition was starting to suffer from Rules Bloat, as well as having terrible editing and layout (well, it WAS originally a Chaosium printing). 5th edition seems to take a "Back to Basics" approach, but unfortunately goes to far in how much it trims away.

I essentially ran 4th edition, because we really ended up needing all that extra stuff in the end. I do agree that the GPC is the single best Pendragon product ever released, it's just a shame that anyone using 5th rather than 4th edition might not have everything they needed to run it to it's full potential.

Considering I'm running a campaign set in Salisbury where the two PC-Knights come from where the players where born, 5th Edition as it is would be largely useless for me. Doing away with the cultural/region data, random chargen and the opportunity to play non-vassal knights impoverished the game. I checked 5th ed in a local store when it came out and it seemed a culled version of 4th, with some streamlining and cartoony art.

As for 4th I think there is much good info on Knight Adventurous who should have made it to the 4th ed rulebook, namely court receptions, tourneys, feast events, horse breeds and the armour system.

So I guess we have a trend here...

I have never seen GPC, Boy King, BoTM or BoK&L, so I cannot comment on those.


So in conclusion, from the perspective of a GM running the game as-is, not limiting PCs culturally, regionally or religiously and having to create his own adventures or adapting ones fans have posted online during the years, I would say 3rd Edition is clearly superior.

I discovered KAP during the era of 4th Ed. Although I could see that this was a great game (and rapidly sought out all the supplements) I found 4th Ed. to be a nightmare to use as it was never quite clear where a rule might be tucked away. Too bloated and disorganized.

I snatched up 5th Ed. as soon as it came out. In my mind this was far better! The organisation is nice and clear and the rules are much more streamlined. It does miss out on the advanced character generation, but having Book of Knights and Ladies come out solved that, and this supplement is also a joy to use. Personally, I don't see it not being in the main book as a disadvantage, as it keeps it clear.

The main book is a great introduction, the BoK&L is a great expansion and the GPC is the ultimate campaign supplement. What more could you possibly want! (Except for the Book of the Manor and the promised Book of Battle, and anything else Greg cares to provide for us ;D ) I missed out on 3rd Ed. and so can't comment on this one.

4th edition is basically 3rd edition + Knights adventurous in one big book, with some editing mistakes. :)

5th edition is a better organised version of the rules, with all the background material you need to run it. If you have 3rd or 4th edition, you really don't need 5th edition - it's the same game.

However, 5th edition supplements (GPC, Book of the Manor, Book of Knights and Ladies) are very, very good.

Everyone knows what the GPC is, but the other two books:

With the character book in particular (the Book of Knights and Ladies), you get all the options you used to have with Knight's Adventurous, but instead of equipment, skills, and trait choices being fixed in the 531 era, you get all that for every single period of the game. And more! You get foreign knights, like Saracens, Danes, and Italians, and each culture has their own special skill or ability. Really, if you want flexibility and/or randomisation in character design, this blows all the previous editions out of the water.
You don't need 5th edition to use it, you can use it with any previous edition of the rules. The only thing it lacks is magicians, which is fine by me.

The Book of the Manor is a landholding supplement the like of which youy've never seen before. It gives a huge amount of detail to individual manors, and through the improvements you can make, it encourages you to act like a medieval landholder would. There are benefits, for instance, to being a patron of scholars, or building a garden for your lover, or donating to your religion. Along with the usual options of investing in fortifications and things that raise land revenue (like sheep herds and vineyards).
The previous landholding supplements, the Nobles Book and Lordly Domains, were really geared towards major landholders like bannerettes and barons. The Book of the Manor is designed for the smallest landholders in pendragon, the Landed Knight with a single manor. It can scale up to approximate the estates of major landholders like barons and counts, too, but it's really designed for smaller scale landholders, those with say 1-10 manors, and works very well at these levels.

Both of these supplements can be used with any edition of the game, and in my opinion are must-haves.

(Disclaimer: my name is inside both of those supplements, as a playtester or similar, but I don't benefit from their sales!)

Just out of curiosity, how is Spain depicted in the BoK&L? Is it all saracens or does it include the christians in the North?

Just out of curiosity, how is Spain depicted in the BoK&L? Is it all saracens or does it include the christians in the North?

As it says, "I have chosen to ignore the reconquista." Spain is a medieval pastiche of its history (Arian Christian Visigoths, Toledo steel), with a Special ability of Gastronomy.
The Saracens, residents of the mighty empire of Zazamanc, are the many residents of Africa and the Near East. (including the Vandals).

--Greg

Sounds very interesting to me. Thank you Greg. :)

When I was a kid I was given a copy of Pendragon (3rd edition I think). I don't recall who gave it to me, but I wasn't really a gamer and didn't really know any gamers (making it extra weird that I owned it) then I ended up giving it away about a year before I started gaming. If I had held on just a little longer it wouldn't have taken me several more years before properly discovering Pendragon.

When I (re)discovered Pendragon it was with 4th edition. I jumped right into running it. When 5th ed came out only about a year later I waited awhile before buying it. An abridged version of what I was already using didn't sound too tempting. I did eventually pick up the 5th ed book though (better suited for making characters to go along with the GPC) and since it is much better organized I do find that I reference it quite often. However, I greatly prefer the advanced character creation in 4th ed and actually like (and use!) the magic system so my 4th ed book probably still spends at least as much time off the shelf as the 5th ed book.

This thread about edition preference also got me thinking about editing. I've taken a look at the erratas for KAP5 and GPC and it seems there is an awful lot of mistakes and data missing from both books (I believe KAP5 does not even have the Glory Rewards table). Has there been a print run where these mistakes were corrected?

I think the GPC got the missing index added to it in the print-on-demand version from Lulu. I don't think anything else was corrected/added. Unfortunately it's not possible anymore to get the Lulu version (or any other) and from Eddy's recent response to a post of mine at the WW forums it seems we may never see the game in print again (at least as long as the IP belongs to WW/Arthaus and doesn't get bought by some other company)... :'(

My experience with all the various editions is taken individually, they all accomplish what they say they do. 4th encompasses Knights, magic, and the various cultures in Arthur's realm (Saxons, Irish, Picts, etc). I agree it tended to be a bit on the heavy side of rules, but then compare it to many other RPGs with all their supplements, I think it stayed true to its genre. 5th edition tries to refocus on the original idea of Pendragon, its knights. The book does so, but does strip everything away to what might be considered to be too restrictive. But, it does compare to 4th edition basic character generation. The Book of Knights and Ladies is the advanced book and makes characters that are true to those who would be loyal to Arthur in 4th edition comparable.

The problem I found is there is disconnect between the two generation systems (4th and 5th). The order clearly laid out in one is different than the other. This can, and has in my campaign, lead to player's confusion. But, if one has the patience to map out the differences, they become minor and 5th edition gives the advantage of PCs who, on the average, start out better.

Bob

To be honest, I do prefer the 5th edition, specially its focus on the entire campaign instead of assuming that most people will start in the middle of the wholw affair. I think focusing on the Uther period right at the beguining was the right choice. We should not forget that the 5th edition is basically comprised of two books, the core rules ("Player's handbook") and the GPC "Gamemaster's Guide", as opposed to a single "all-in-one" book like the 4th edition.

Personaly I think that the magic rules are not a main focus of the game and instead of making the core book more expensive they should be put on a magic supplement instead. I do miss some small stuff like rules/guidelines for Wandering Knights, for example. That stuff added a lot of colour and didn't take much space.

As for the rest, I think the 5th edition is spot on.

personally, I have all the edition but the one I like the less is the fourth one, probably due to its magic system. After, my preference goes to the fifth edition for the same reasons as Gorgon (beginning at Uther, GPC improvement compared to the Boy King, possibility to play a british christian character...). With a future acquisition of Book of Manor (which I hope is quite different and an improvement of Lordly Domains) and Book of Knights and Ladies. i think that with the fifth edition, there is a real possibility to different kind of plays: One can play quite historical (my case), an another quite mythic an or a combination of the two.

I don't have it, but I think The Book of the Manor is surely an improvement over Lordly Domains or Noble's Handbook. It seems that it differs in two aspects though:

1) the previous books took into account PCs with big titles like Count/Earl, Duke, etc, while the new book is more directed at more lower level ranks (maybe someone can confirm this)

2) looking at the table of contents for BotM, the previous books, specially Lordly Domais, had a TON of info and detail on Hunting, Feasts, Tournments, Heraldry, etc, while the new one only has a page on the subject. I loved that info on the Lordly Domains and I guess I'll miss it from TBotM (when I buy it, that is). I whish that stuff would have been included and updated.

2) looking at the table of contents for BotM, the previous books, specially Lordly Domais, had a TON of info and detail on Hunting, Feasts, Tournments, Heraldry, etc, while the new one only has a page on the subject. I loved that info on the Lordly Domains and I guess I'll miss it from TBotM (when I buy it, that is). I whish that stuff would have been included and updated.

it was also a part I used to appreciate a lot, specially all the rules about the management of hunting dogs and falcons.

The problem I found is there is disconnect between the two generation systems (4th and 5th). The order clearly laid out in one is different than the other. This can, and has in my campaign, lead to player's confusion. But, if one has the patience to map out the differences, they become minor and 5th edition gives the advantage of PCs who, on the average, start out better.


Not if you are using The Book of Knights (not the BoK&L, the old one) and its 3-advances-per-year rules...

The problem I found is there is disconnect between the two generation systems (4th and 5th). The order clearly laid out in one is different than the other. This can, and has in my campaign, lead to player's confusion. But, if one has the patience to map out the differences, they become minor and 5th edition gives the advantage of PCs who, on the average, start out better.


Yes, the beginning characters in KAP5 are better than their counterparts in earlier editions.
That was intentional on my part.

--Greg

Just wanted to add that 5th ed really sorta assumes that you'll be playing the GPC, but if you want to start going with a game set during Arthur's reign and the height of chivalry then an earlier edition might be worth considering.

I don't have it, but I think The Book of the Manor is surely an improvement over Lordly Domains or Noble's Handbook. It seems that it differs in two aspects though:

1) the previous books took into account PCs with big titles like Count/Earl, Duke, etc, while the new book is more directed at more lower level ranks (maybe someone can confirm this)
yes, this is correct.



2) looking at the table of contents for BotM, the previous books, specially Lordly Domais, had a TON of info and detail on Hunting, Feasts, Tournments, Heraldry, etc, while the new one only has a page on the subject. I loved that info on the Lordly Domains and I guess I'll miss it from TBotM (when I buy it, that is). I whish that stuff would have been included and updated.


None of that stuff needs updating, you can use it exactly as is from the Lordly Domains book. (Exception: hunting rules are in the KAP 5 rulebook now - with some updates on Greg's webiste, and there's information on tournaments in the GPC and KAP 5 rulebook).

None of that stuff needs updating, you can use it exactly as is from the Lordly Domains book. (Exception: hunting rules are in the KAP 5 rulebook now - with some updates on Greg's webiste, and there's information on tournaments in the GPC and KAP 5 rulebook).


Yes, but:

1) the other books are out of print and BotM is now the reference
2) I know that the rules for hunting are still part of the game and so are tournaments, but I was refering specifically to the substantially expanded info (and it was a ton) that is found on those out-of-print books (e.g. what Finn56 said about the rules for the management of hunting dogs and falcons, the lively and colourful info on Feasts, etc.). It added a LOT to the game and the BotM was the perfect place for it now that the old books are no longer in print.

All of 4th ed seems to be available in PDF from DTRPG.

Yes, but:

1) the other books are out of print and BotM is now the reference
2) I know that the rules for hunting are still part of the game and so are tournaments, but I was refering specifically to the substantially expanded info (and it was a ton) that is found on those out-of-print books (e.g. what Finn56 said about the rules for the management of hunting dogs and falcons, the lively and colourful info on Feasts, etc.). It added a LOT to the game and the BotM was the perfect place for it now that the old books are no longer in print.



I thought from your original quote that you already had Lordly Domains. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Actually, I DO have Lordly Domais. I was just refering to people that are new to the system and how it would be a nice thing to keep all that info in print.

Actually, I DO have Lordly Domais. I was just refering to people that are new to the system and how it would be a nice thing to keep all that info in print.


I'm not sure how much of a point there is to that since there isn't any edition of the core book in print.

I'm not sure how much of a point there is to that since there isn't any edition of the core book in print.


Alas, so it is.

There are only the pdf versions available now, on http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=703 .

And for those seeking the Adventure of the Internet, most editions and supplements can be found on
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=%22King+Arthur+Pendragon%22&x=0&y=0
and generally for less than they cost when new.

Or, just fall into deep despair, like failing a Passion roll, and give up your dream of ever playing.

--Greg

Or, just fall into deep despair, like failing a Passion roll, and give up your dream of ever playing.


Thankfully, the GPC gives us the madness table, so remember to roll each 6 months to recover from that despair. (Unless you haven't been able to get your hands on the GPC, in which case your doomed.)

I'm not sure how much of a point there is to that since there isn't any edition of the core book in print.


Well, you got me there. ;)

Or, just fall into deep despair, like failing a Passion roll, and give up your dream of ever playing.

--Greg



While my post was a bit unnecessarily despairing (I'm pretty disappointed with WW) my point was simply that when it comes to Lordly Domains Vs Book of Manors that one needn't feel constrained to pick up one or the other based on game edition.

my point was simply that when it comes to Lordly Domains Vs Book of Manors that one needn't feel constrained to pick up one or the other based on game edition.



Or better yet, get Book of the Manor. :)

I basically like Pendragon period. I started on 4th edition and I liked it. I do not in any way like magicians. They are not in the original literature very often except as villians, and they are not really very fun to play.I like the explanation of how magic works and life force and sacred places.. it's cool. But playing a magician is no fun. You cant fight, u cast one spell and sleep for days, its sorta tedious. There are some people who like it so.... whoohoo! Good for u. Pendragon to me, is about playing knights, not sorcerers or Ladies. But with the 5th edition rules in place now and expanded in the Book of Knights and Ladies, I would easily rather play a lady than a magician.
4th edition is good. Very good. Also all the supplements were nice especially perilous forest/savage mts. ( maybe 3rd edition?) That being said 5th is better. It saves a lot of space on dropping magicians ( if u need them u should play D&D), Is more clear and concise, and with the GPC book blows away every other supplement ever done. Book of Knights and Ladies is your advanced generation, and is improved from the 4th edition material. Much better. Really brings a character to life. I am most impressed with the book of the Manor though. The manorial system will not make u rich, but it is very fun and helps tell a full story of who your knight really is, by how and in what way your manor is run. Book of the Manor rocks. Lastly,Greg has been working very hard on his Book of battle and it is near completion( im sure). I have had the priveledge of helping test the system and it is awesome. In 4th edition the battle system is not at all clear. To me it was a narration tool and kinda abstract. NOT ANYMORE BABY!!!! In 4th edition Greg started the uther anarchy period concepts and fime tuned them in the GPC. It was necessary to make a better battle system. Greg did and you used it in 5th edition for all the battles that take place. Well now he has made an even better battle system. Its awesome. If you have the GPC, K&L, BotM, and Book of battle when it comes out, then you will see it's superoirity to 4th edition. And fot those of u crazy guys who like magicians you can probably use them in 5th edition without changing much. 5th edition is a winner. ----Brandegoris

I agree with Hambone regarding the Book of Battle. I have found it to be most comprehensive and much more detailed of the battles. The second portion where the battles are shown with their respective enemies table is even more fun.

Pendragon has gotten better with each edition. I do miss the magicians, but can live without them as a knight. However, it is a little harder to remain consistent fighting Saxons, Picts, Irish, etc. who may have magicians. With the rules, I can ensure play balance, but without them, I could make something a little too powerful or weak.

I have run them all. My favourite is 1st edition. It is so raw, so vibrant. Sure it has some mistakes, but Greg's instincts were spot on. I still run a 1e campaign.

3rd edition cleans and tightens things up, but introduces Glory and Character inflation. I also hated the whole 531/Salisbury focus. And the 1E Battle system was so much better than 3e/4e/5e. It actually was vital for PC's to have a good Battle score (it is basically irrelevant in later editions). I also run a 3e campaign.

4th edition takes it even further, trying to make the PC's a good as Gawaine, and introduces magic mechanics. No place in my game.

5th is 3rd edition set 50 years earlier so that Greg can offer the GPC, but tightened and fine tuned even more. They are slick and clean and complete, and the place I would recommend people to start. i will eventually run a 5e campaign.

Hello all, new poster here, and new to the Pendragon game!
I bought 4th edition a few days ago, and I am literally devouring it! How could I miss so brilliant a game?! ??? :o (well in Italy rpgs where quite difficult to obtain).
I have no experience with the other editions, except buying The Book of Knights (which prompted me to look at the full rules).
So far, I am liking every bit and piece, from the rules to the setting and magic. Simply brilliant.

BTW, does anybody know which/where is the errata for the 4th edition?

Thanks,
Antonio

BTW, does anybody know which/where is the errata for the 4th edition?


Yea, it's called KAP5th. :D ::)

--Greg

BTW, does anybody know which/where is the errata for the 4th edition?


Yea, it's called KAP5th. :D ::)

--Greg

Subtle hint :D Thanks anyway!

It actually was vital for PC's to have a good Battle score (it is basically irrelevant in later editions). I also run a 3e campaign.


Rock on completely. I'm sorry to keep bringing up a supplement that isn't in print yet--truly!--but Battle becomes a very important skill in Book of the Battle, as it's quite possible a player character will end up by himself on the battlefield, and will have to make his own Battle rolls. Ouch.

And apropo of very little, I like the skills drift over the course of the campaign: very useful to have Siege and Battle early in Anarchy and Conquest, pretty unimportant from Romance on...where Tourney and Lance become super-important.

Suzanne