Sirs Erec, Gaelavin & Gwyn, if you should stumble upon this thread, please keep out - and under no circumstances are you invited to vote! ;)
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One of my players, has decided that his character, Sir Erec, should pursue Countess Ellen. Over the last eight years he has chased her, and has finally convinced her to see him as an adult in his own right (he's 26 and the year is 504AD), rather than the son of a former knight of hers (also named Sir Erec!)

During those years he has served her loyally, if a tad recklessly at times. He has helped build alliances with Nanteleod and trained and raised a force of footmen to replace the many men that have died at the hands of the Saxons.

In our session last night, Sir Erec proposed to Countess Ellen...
(see: http://www.pendragonchronicles.org.uk/anarchy/504.html for an account)
He's younger than her, and the owner of only two manors, and yet has roleplayed succesfully his desire and marshalled the arguments for why she should say yes. Ellen has listened, and is fond of him, but to my mind as GM I can't see that she would say yes. Her response is to wait until the end of the game year when she will come to a conclusion.

Is she trying to let him down gently? Is she going to say yes? Is she undecided?
I don't know!
What would you do?...
And what should be the consequences if she says yes?...

What would you do?...
And what should be the consequences if she says yes?...


I'd probably have her say yes, after one more "test." (GM determines it)
The consequences are that he gets promoted, will lead battles, make the comptal decisions, be a big shot, but is largely out of the game. He's too busy to go adventuring any more. He has won the game of life.

And his wife will roll on one of the older Childbirth Table 2 or 3. His chances of an heir are diminished.

I can think of two historical parallels to this. Richard Woodville marrying Jacquetta of Luxembourg, the widow of John, Duke of Bedford and, of course, Catherine of Valois marrying Owen Tudor after the death of Henry V. I think it could lead to a lot of interesting story ideas and opportunity for roleplay.

As to the age thing, John Woodville, then 20, married Catherine Neville, Dowager Duchess of Norfolk when she was in her 70s. This was no doubt a love match on at least one side. The Woodvilles loving power. ;)

Thanks for the thoughts folks!

Last night the campaign recommenced. Sir Erec (and his player) appeared stunned and relieved when he heard that that Countess was to accept his proposal, and then distressed that she required one more demonstration of his loyalty and devotion before she would officially accept - and no, he could not announce their betrothal beforehand! With the Saxons marching upon them from the South, they were in trouble. Fortunately Nanteleod was marching to their aid. If Sir Erec leads her men into battle victoriously alongside Nanteleod, then she would consent...

Ok, so it transpires that Sir Erec's player is a good actor - despite my alerting him to keep out of this thread, he did not, and so had a fair idea of what might happen  ::)

The forces met at Levcomagus, and with apparent ease whipped King Cerdic off the field of battle, but maybe that was a little too straightforward. The year is not yet done and the campaign of war is not yet over...

Just like to mention that the lady is still employing delaying tactics!
Could it be possible that she doesn't love me...?
:'(

Shudder - soul searching really doesn't suit me - now where is my sword and something to hit?

What would you do?...
And what should be the consequences if she says yes?...


I'd probably have her say yes, after one more "test." (GM determines it)
The consequences are that he gets promoted, will lead battles, make the comptal decisions, be a big shot, but is largely out of the game. He's too busy to go adventuring any more. He has won the game of life.

And his wife will roll on one of the older Childbirth Table 2 or 3. His chances of an heir are diminished.



Greg's response made me think a little bit. Assuming Robert will become the Earl when he comes of age, just what happens to Sir Erec's son if he does indeed have one? Does he get any land, prestige? seen as the 'spare' heir?

Does he get any land, prestige?


Don't go giving my players ideas...

Hzark10!!!

Genius! Now, where is that scroll and quill... erm... anyone know how to write?

???

Perhaps Sir Erec should lose a point of Honour for consulting this online oracle?

Assuming Robert will become the Earl when he comes of age, just what happens to Sir Erec's son if he does indeed have one? Does he get any land, prestige? seen as the 'spare' heir?



This would be the son of Erec and the countess, right?

Everyone in the noble family is better off than ordinary knights, of course. Nonetheless, primogeniture requires it all go to the eldest son, Sir Robert. Whatever is set aside for the other children will be petty in comparison to the county itself.

Now, Sir Erec, if he is alive when Robert acquires the comptal rights, would be recognized and rewarded, though probably with gifts rather than grants. And, if he is a normal person, he'd transfer some rights to himself while he's in charge, to take care of himself after Robert is ennobled.

As for being the spare heir--sorry, no. There's not a drop of Roderick's blood in him, and his relatives would inherit.

Finally, the countess ought to be concerned for Robert' safety. History and legend are full of stories where the step-parent harassed their children, persecuted even, and pretty often did away with them altogether.

And it might not be Erec! Remember that little bit crazy old uncle, or that aunt once removed who has the apothecary in her retinue, or maybe watch out for that second cousin whose status would surely improve if Erec were the earl after an unfortunate accident of some sort...

Better start thinking what Erec will do when he has to pass judgment on one of his relatives for an effort to take Robert's life.

--Greg

What follows is a brief, if somewhat complicated description of medieval inheritance laws. It backs up everything Greg said above. It's is probably more detailed than any reasonable person will ever need to know about medieval law, but there it is. Oh, and if you finish reading this you've done that than could be reasonably expected of anyone


Just going on what I know, I'm a history grad student but not a medieval specialist,the following is the way inheritance generally works in ordinary and typical (and typical is a very loose term when talking about the medieval period as a whole) cases.


Most systems use some version of what are called Salic or Semi-Salic law. The difference is that Sallic law only allows for decent along the male line, and thus the claim to a title cannot be traced through the mother's line. Semi-salic allows decent from either the mother's or father's side although the father's side is generally preferred.


In almost all cases:
First, there's almost no way a son of Sir Erec could be count, at least according to normal rules of succession.

Salic law:
If something happens to the heir, Robert, in most situations the title would go to Roberts younger brother, in this case he has none, so we go back to the Robert's uncles and the oldest surviving one of those gets the title. If there are no living uncles you go back a generation further. Until you find a living male heir. If there is no heir conditions become fuzzy, but in most feudal systems, the title then reverts to the King, but that might vary based on "facts on the ground" (ie the king has to have sufficent force to enforce this case).

So the ultimate result is a king who is actually hold several ranks in the nobility simultaneously ie John King of England, Earl of Sommerset, count of Hohenzollern, etc.

This can and does lead to all sorts of confusing situations, divided loyalties, and conflicting interests. Such conflicting interests are common and can and do become the basis for wars. The 100 Years War began this way.

In the case above, if Robert were the last of his line, the title goes to the the King (or High King if there is one) and the earl's title, castle, and lands become property of the crown. Oh, and Sir Erec might wind up homeless.

Semi-Salic law:

In these the daughter of the late earl might be eligible to inherit if the earl has no living sons. In other versions of Semi-Salic law the female line is only valid if the male line has been exhausted.


In either case Countess Elen won't inherit the Earl's title and lands, unless she shares a common ancestor with the dead earl AND just happens to be the heir via that decent. This isn't likely although it's certainly possible (families of stature tended to marry within similar circles so shared ancestry is common).

Still there is no way under Semi-Salic law that Erec can expect to inherit anything. The best he can hope for then is that Elen IS the rightful heir in which case he gets a nominal title and goes on about his life. This is more or less why Queen Elizabeth II's husband is Prince Phillip is "Queen Consort " and not King Phillip.

Exceptions

There are also circumstances where things can vary, for example it may turn out that the Roderick wasn't the prior Earl's biological son after all and Roderick's real father was the butler. In that case Roderick never held the title legitimately and so Robert is ineligible. Or, if someone can claim a title based on dubious claims Robert might be defeated in battle and FORCED to concede the title. Under those circumstances Robert would likely have to admit that he knew his father was illegitimate and thus he is passing on the title to the rightful heir. Everyone will know this isn't true, but the legal fiction still holds weight.

So to continue the example of Robert above, it's possible some unscrupulous usurper, like King Lot, might be able to just steal the Earl's title and lands and force the current title holder (in this case Robert) to cede those lands based on such a claims of illegitimacy. Kings and High Kings would be expected to prevent such dubious behavior, but of course under some circumstances, like the anarchy era, such things might become common. At the end of the day might can make right (at least legally speaking).

Exceptions
Other examples issues might be trying to enforce Salic law if Semi-Salic law applies (or vice-versa) so that some other person is rightful heir. This is especially likely if the law has been enforced unevenly. Such varied interpretation of succession laws can and do lead to wars. They're in part responsible for the 100 Years War and also lead to at least one civil war in Spain.


There are other systems in use at the time, such as ultimogeniture, the Rota system, and so on. However Salic and Semi-Salic succession are the standards.


Anyway I hope that was understandable, and more importantly, useful to somebody. I have to get back to writing my dissertation now, which has absolutely nothing to do with medieval inheritance laws.

So, in this case, bump off Robert and claim your son to be him if the two are at all close in ages. ;)

Rob, thank you for the discourse in inheritance. So, the basic issue during the Anarchy phase, is take a castle, get recognized as the LEGAL owner before doing anything else. Am I getting this right? That way, no one can come back and claim it (unless they fight).

In the Anarchy period, possession is not nine-tenths of the law, it -is- the law. Until Arthur gets back, the only measure of "legal ownership" is being able to defend what is yours.

That said, yeah, Robert is more or less "it" in terms of Ellen's inheritance. We don't know if Earl Roderick had any brothers, or in other words who his successor would be, though. If Salisbury would escheat (meaning that there's no heirs within a reasonable penumbra around Roderick and Robert), though, then Sir Erec can probably create himself as Earl, be generally accepted as such, and have his creation confirmed by King Arthur (maybe).

So, the basic issue during the Anarchy phase, is take a castle, get recognized as the LEGAL owner before doing anything else. Am I getting this right? That way, no one can come back and claim it (unless they fight).


Well what I wrote above is more or less a very brief summary of "typical" medieval inheritance laws, which are always open to interpretation. I wrote it more to sort of clarify what would happen "in the real world" in that situation. However in the real world, swords aren't pulled out of rocks, and to quote the prophets "some watery tart hurling a scimitar at you is no basis for a system of government." Pendragon is, in a word, better than "real" history.

There are also lots of variations spread out geographically and chronologically. What that means in the case of the Anarchy (or anything else in Pendragon really) is more for Greg (or the GM) to say than anyone else. Claiming possession based purely on possession is something most common during the 6th century AD or so, but could really happen anytime. Jumping through legal hoops is something I'd more expect of the 15th century. Although depending on local conditions, and what other local nobles are willing to do, or not do, about the situation anything is feasible at any time.

Having said that, Greg has said Pendragon is anachronistic which is certainly true. These anachronisms, are, in my mind, is one of the great strength's of Pendragon. Over the course of one campaign we see the transition from basic chain mail to Gothic plate, which in reality took hundreds of years. Chivalry and the idea of "knighthood" spread throughout Europe over a few decades instead of centuries. The fact you can see the transitions of society over a relativity few campaign years makes the better than it would be otherwise, in part because it captures the essence of Authurian myth, and in part because it does break up the monotony. In reality transitions were slow during most of the dark ages and medieval era. One of the things I love about the GPC is that by compacting those changes over decades, instead of centuries, change becomes visible in a way it wouldn't if you followed a more true to history story line of the 5th century.

I don't mean to say that Pendragon is fiction in the same sense D-n-D is, because Pendragon stays within the realm of distinct mythos. Someone from the 14th century brought forward in time to today could more or less follow the GPC whereas they'd be horribly confused by most other RPGs. Many of the events have VERY REAL counterparts in real history. There really was a period of English history called the Anarchy (capital A) in the 12th century. The conflicts betwee Saxons and Romano-Celtic British are also very real, but from the 5th century. The genius of Pendragon, both Greg's game, and collection of poems, stories, and legends that make up the mythology the game is based on is in combining centuries of interesting events while removing the relatively mundane times in between.

So it wouldn't seem odd to me to have a campaign that is very dark ages in feel, very high middle ages in feel, or both at various points.

All of which is to say there's certainly plenty of wiggle room to allow for anything at any point in the campaign.

Apologies to all if the a bit too gushing about Pendragon or Greg but it really is brilliant stuff.

Erec somehow survived the campaign with Nanteleod, although it was close. He fell under King Athelswith's sword, but having opened up the way to him, Nanteleod himself was able to engage with the King, and defeated him, enabling Erec to be rescued and healed. Having fulfilled his duties to Ellen, she remained true to her word and accepted Erec's proposal of marraige!

I wait with anticipation to see what happens next. There are, as this thread suggests, many possibilities.

I have two subsequent questions:

1) Clearly Robert inherits the title Earl from His dead father. Does Erec gain a title by virtue of his marrying Ellen?
2) Any thoughts about what a wedding of this nature might look like?


Thanks for all your responses to the original question!

1) Clearly Robert inherits the title Earl from His dead father. Does Erec gain a title by virtue of his marrying Ellen?
2) Any thoughts about what a wedding of this nature might look like?

1. He probably does not; however, if Ellen is able to grant titles by virtue of her regency, then she could conceivably grant him a title as part of her dowry. If she's unable to grant titles (that other knights/nobles would honor), then he probably would have to wait 'til Robert is old enough to establish him as a baron.

2. I would assume that the wedding would look like any other wedding of a widow with status, and that would probably look like any other traditional wedding in the Pendragon universe. Of course, if it's during the Anarchy period, the wedding itself might be smaller in scale, with less fanfare.

Erec gets the Regent of ___ title until Robert comes of age. Unless the Crown decides he's doing too good a job to let Robert take over.

In which case Erec might be styled Earl of ___ by the crown, Robert disenfranchised and/or made Erec's heir by adoption. Also, under both Salic and semi-salic, it occasionally happens that a beloved regent-by-marriage was declared heir to his adoptive son by the crown, and then said son disappeared. ISTR something by Shakespeare along this line... (Richard III, IIRC)

I have two subsequent questions:

1) Clearly Robert inherits the title Earl from His dead father. Does Erec gain a title by virtue of his marrying Ellen?



No. Not officially. He can have all the income, and all the merit, and all the authority, but he doesn't have a right to the title.
But in the Anarchy Period, as has been said, anything goes. See how Count Edar became Earl in my blog, etc.




2) Any thoughts about what a wedding of this nature might look like?



http://www.medieval-weddings.net/ has some maerial.

--Greg

Many interesting thoughts above! Formulating a cunning plan as we speak... GM beware!!!

;D

The GM is well aware - and well aware of the breach of honor in his players reading trheads they were asked to keep out of ::)

2) Any thoughts about what a wedding of this nature might look like?



http://www.medieval-weddings.net/ has some maerial.

--Greg


Thanks Greg - there's some great stuff there! I especially like the tradition of guests bringing individual cakes, piling them on top of each other, and the bride and groom having to try and kiss over the top without causing them to topple - sounds like the wedding equivalent of the leap at being knighted. Definate gaming possibilities around this.