This may sound odd - but I think it is a good question. The rules for Pendragon are outstanding - some of the best I have ever had the fortune to come accross. So...
...has anyone ever thought to use the core rules as the basis of another game? The reason I ask this is because I have a friend who read through the Pendragon rules and asked if I ever thought of doing a Robin Hood type game using the same core mechanics (obviously altered a bit). I said I was not sure.

I did run a Robin Hood -ish game with Rolemaster about 15 years or so ago and it was fun.

I am very fond of these rules so I am curious as to what you all might think. Pendragon is a great game so this could be a huge mistake but even for discussion purposes worth chatting about.

Cheers!!!

at least 3 adaptations have hit the net.

Glorantha:
http://www.poppyware.com/dunham/pdp.html

Japan:
http://genpei.pbworks.com/

THere was a third for ancient China, but I can't readily find it anymore.


Oh, and "Land of Giants" is a reset of Pendragon for the Beowulf setting. It was an official 4th ed book.

Thanks!!!

A friend of mine used it for an ancient greek one.

I've always thought that were I to do a game set in Middle earth, that Pendragon would be an excellent fit with its focus on passions and traits. So much in Lord of the Rings focusses not on abilities but what drives people to acts of heroism or despair.

I've always thought that were I to do a game set in Middle earth, that Pendragon would be an excellent fit with its focus on passions and traits. So much in Lord of the Rings focusses not on abilities but what drives people to acts of heroism or despair.
You'll have to ditch the winter training-rules, though. At least for elves, half-elves and dunedain. :) Imagine Legolas, with about 1500 d6 skill points to spend. ;D

I always thought Pendragon was a much sounder basis for an RPG than AD-n-D. Not JUST in the setting, but in terms of game mechanics as well. Maybe it should be rewritten as a "generic" system like D20. The virtue system is one of the best ideas I've seen in roleplaying. Just my $.02

hmmm a Grand Pendragon Campaign style book on the Kinstrife in Gondor would be awesome.

hmmm a Grand Pendragon Campaign style book on the Kinstrife in Gondor would be awesome.


think big. Star Trek big.

I still want to do a GPC in Legend of the Five Rings using the decades of metaplot they've developed. I'd probably be more likely to get people around here enthusiastic in L5R then in Pendragon proper.

I still want to do a GPC in Legend of the Five Rings using the decades of metaplot they've developed. I'd probably be more likely to get people around here enthusiastic in L5R then in Pendragon proper.

From the name L5R sounds like a LotR clone, but I don't know anything about it. What's the premise?

I still want to do a GPC in Legend of the Five Rings using the decades of metaplot they've developed. I'd probably be more likely to get people around here enthusiastic in L5R then in Pendragon proper.

From the name L5R sounds like a LotR clone, but I don't know anything about it. What's the premise?


L5R - 'Legend of the Five Rings' is a fairly successful roleplaying game from Alderac game, http://www.l5r.com/rpg/. It's an amalgation of the mythical cultures of Japan, China, Korea and some other far eastern cultures (seen from a fairly obvious western viewpoint). It has samurais, ninjas, spell casting warrior priests, goblins, demons and other monsters.

AEG produces the RPG and a CCG from it, with the CCG being very popular. They both share the same background and story arcs. So the history is quite developed, comparable with the way Shadowrun's history was developed. The plot is developed between editions and supplements.

I do like the game, but there are certain elements of it that I'm not too fond of. How much one enjoys it would depend on what you're after. It's not pure Japan/samurai-centric, it has mystical elements with quite a lot of magic, and not everyone enjoys how dramatic things are changed in the story arcs are changed, and how fast it is changed.

Not wanting to be a pain, but let's bring this back to Pendragon, we're beginning to stray off topic... :)

To bring this back around to topic; How are you modifying the system to work with L5R? Also with a name like that, I have to wonder, is there some Tolken influence or is it just coincidence that it sounds so like Lord of the Rings?

I've begun to tweak the basic rules to use in a other settings. The virtue system from Pendragon is an absolutely brilliant way of dealing with character attitudes. Granted the virtues themselves may change, but the basic concept of quantifying these aspects of personality is just brilliant. It's orders of magnitude more advanced than the old D-n-D system based on alignments, and with a little tweaking can be suited to almost any time or place. I'm inclined to fit it into all my future games.

Case in point; I've been doing preliminary work for a 'pulp era' game set sometime between 1900 and 1939. In such a setting a hierarchical vs egalitarian virtue might be just the thing to show one's attitude toward the class systems that so defined that era. Religion might be an appropriate way to demonstrate which virtues are important to some characters (even today), but in a more modern setting other ideas besides religion might matter as well. So a graduate of Eton would have hierarchical underlined on his character sheet, while a Marxist would have egalitarian underlined. If these two characters encounter one another (or are in the same party) things are going to interesting when the Marxist insists that the bell boy call the party members by their first names.

Likewise, the basic system could be modified to fit into a setting like Star Wars, where the "Dark Side" is a major theme in the universe. Testament,which uses a less elegant system based around a "piety score," could also benefit by bringing in era appropriate virtues.

I still want to do a GPC in Legend of the Five Rings using the decades of metaplot they've developed. I'd probably be more likely to get people around here enthusiastic in L5R then in Pendragon proper.

From the name L5R sounds like a LotR clone, but I don't know anything about it. What's the premise?


L5R - 'Legend of the Five Rings' is a fairly successful roleplaying game from Alderac game, http://www.l5r.com/rpg/. It's an amalgation of the mythical cultures of Japan, China, Korea and some other far eastern cultures (seen from a fairly obvious western viewpoint). It has samurais, ninjas, spell casting warrior priests, goblins, demons and other monsters.

AEG produces the RPG and a CCG from it, with the CCG being very popular. They both share the same background and story arcs. So the history is quite developed, comparable with the way Shadowrun's history was developed. The plot is developed between editions and supplements.

I do like the game, but there are certain elements of it that I'm not too fond of. How much one enjoys it would depend on what you're after. It's not pure Japan/samurai-centric, it has mystical elements with quite a lot of magic, and not everyone enjoys how dramatic things are changed in the story arcs are changed, and how fast it is changed.


Right, it basically does for East Asia what D&D does for Western Europe.

Right, it basically does for East Asia what D&D does for Western Europe.


In broad strokes... yes, more or less.

I think using Pendragon's system can do L5R quite well if you use Rob's suggestion of modding the virtues. Shouldn't need to much changes if you concentrate on the Samurai bits.

I think using Pendragon's system can do L5R quite well if you use Rob's suggestion of modding the virtues. Shouldn't need to much changes if you concentrate on the Samurai bits.

- I agree, but you'll have to remember to down tune the importance of armor. Both to (i) remain at least a bit true to the L5R combat system and to (ii) stay close to the chanbara genre.

I agree, but you'll have to remember to down tune the importance of armor. Both to (i) remain at least a bit true to the L5R combat system and to (ii) stay close to the chanbara genre.


Maybe not. Most samurai in L5R wear light armor, which they define as having open-faced helms and leaves limbs mostly or completely uncovered. So even if the lamellar plates that make up such armor were metal – and historically often they were not since samurai usually walked instead of rode – you’re talking six (eight if you’re really generous) points of armor with no shields.

Against top-quality two-handed swords, that’s not much protection.

I agree, but you'll have to remember to down tune the importance of armor. Both to (i) remain at least a bit true to the L5R combat system and to (ii) stay close to the chanbara genre.


Maybe not. Most samurai in L5R wear light armor, which they define as having open-faced helms and leaves limbs mostly or completely uncovered. So even if the lamellar plates that make up such armor were metal – and historically often they were not since samurai usually walked instead of rode – you’re talking six (eight if you’re really generous) points of armor with no shields.

Against top-quality two-handed swords, that’s not much protection.
Maybe it's a language barrier thing here... but I am not sure what your point is. It sounds like you are proving my point; you have to down tune the importance of armor in the rules, since the genre (or setting) isn't as "armor heavy" as KAP.

// M

Maybe it's a language barrier thing here... but I am not sure what your point is. It sounds like you are proving my point; you have to down tune the importance of armor in the rules, since the genre (or setting) isn't as "armor heavy" as KAP.


Ah. I incorrectly assumed that "tune down the importance of armor" meant "change the armor rules so armor has less effect." That is why I pointed out that L5R standard armor is lighter than KAP armor -- I wanted to show that no rules changes are necessary, just adding a new type of armor would suffice.

I apologize for the confusion.

Maybe it's a language barrier thing here... but I am not sure what your point is. It sounds like you are proving my point; you have to down tune the importance of armor in the rules, since the genre (or setting) isn't as "armor heavy" as KAP.


Ah. I incorrectly assumed that "tune down the importance of armor" meant "change the armor rules so armor has less effect." That is why I pointed out that L5R standard armor is lighter than KAP armor -- I wanted to show that no rules changes are necessary, just adding a new type of armor would suffice.

I apologize for the confusion.


Now here's a question. Won't lighter armor overall influence the importance of the chivalry (or bushido?) bonus?

There's also the matter of the iconic kind of fight. In Arthuriana, we've got knights fighting each other for hours on end; a little more survivability for famous knights helps facilitate that. In Japanese samurai flicks, at least, it's more about one cut, one kill. To that end, I think there should be a "bushido bonus" offering +1d6 damage or something.

What I'd do to imitate L5R (not chambara as a whole) would be to have different school bonuses, representing the range of fighting styles, which would replace the religion bonuses. These might require a range of different statistics - maybe a Passion for Loyalty (Dojo), appropriate traits for each school, certain skills at a suitable rank. Then each school would reward the student with a bonus - so the Crab Clan would get extra armour (to represent their toughness), the Dragon Clan would get +1d6 damage (to represent their two-swords ginsu machine fighting style), and so on.

The difficulty would be in getting a magic system that reflects L5R, where magic users are much flashier in their powers then magicians are in Pendragon. Some of the unique groups would also be difficult to reflect, like the Tattooed Men, who gain various supernatural strengths and weaknesses as the result of their magic tattooes.

Now here's a further question. There is an enormous amount of material for the infamous D20 system. How would you (collectively) suggest as a means to hybridize the D20 system with P5 (and/or P4)?

Now here's a further question. There is an enormous amount of material for the infamous D20 system. How would you (collectively) suggest as a means to hybridize the D20 system with P5 (and/or P4)?

I'd do it like this (working with my vague memories of d20 when we last played it four/five years ago):

1. Use the exp/level-system from d20. It works well with KAPs different levels of knights.
2. Make all start at level 3, as fresh knights.
3. Keep the Glory system and the glory bonus system.
4. Keep KAPs Winter Phase system, but give them exp instead of what's now (except for Glory Points, who you keep according to above).
5. Keep the KAP Aging system, but make ageing happen more seldom (maybe once every 2 or 3 years from 35 and on), to balance out that you can't train stats in d20.
6. Make different "knight archtypes" to let the players all play knights and still have diverse characters. Something like what they did with different Jedi classes in SWRPG. Maybe classes like champion, brute, courtier, forester, strategist, steward and townsman would be fine?
7. Keep, of course, the Trait and Passion system.
8. Get the hell rid of the d20 combat system, if you want combat situations to be as fast as in KAP. I'd say; keep the KAP combat system in total, and give them +1 or +2 extra HP per level (depending on class).
9. Also, see to that Major Wounds don't happen too often (resulting in heavy stat losses), since it's hard to raise stats in d20.
10. Make Great Weapon skill, Grappling, Lance skill from KAP into feats that can be bought in levels.
11. Maybe cut down on the number of skills in KAP, to reflect the fact that you don't get very much skill pts per lvl in d20.


Ciao!

I haven't played it myself, but I've heard that Iron Kingdoms, a d20 game, works very well for low-ish magic, warrior-focused settings like Conan; maybe it can work for Pendragon as well?

(Slightly off topic)
An issue I can foresee in using KAP5 for any Conan/Swashbuckling/D&D conversion, is the lightly-armoured/DEX fighting style. The core rules for Unburdened and Dodging just won't cut it.

Any suggestions for fixes?

Similarly, I think it would also do a nice StarWars game at least for 'Jedi' Knights. Those scenes in both TESB and TRotJ where Vader and the Emperor try to seduce Luke to the Dark Side is all trait rolls to me. The Dark Side has power as you allow yoursekf to be consumed with passion.

To be fair, Conan wore armor when he could afford it. He didn't roll onto the battlefield as King of Aquilonia with his barbarian loincloth.

Now here's a further question. There is an enormous amount of material for the infamous D20 system. How would you (collectively) suggest as a means to hybridize the D20 system with P5 (and/or P4)?

I'd do it like this (working with my vague memories of d20 when we last played it four/five years ago):

1. Use the exp/level-system from d20. It works well with KAPs different levels of knights.
2. Make all start at level 3, as fresh knights.
3. Keep the Glory system and the glory bonus system.
4. Keep KAPs Winter Phase system, but give them exp instead of what's now (except for Glory Points, who you keep according to above).
5. Keep the KAP Aging system, but make ageing happen more seldom (maybe once every 2 or 3 years from 35 and on), to balance out that you can't train stats in d20.
6. Make different "knight archtypes" to let the players all play knights and still have diverse characters. Something like what they did with different Jedi classes in SWRPG. Maybe classes like champion, brute, courtier, forester, strategist, steward and townsman would be fine?
7. Keep, of course, the Trait and Passion system.
8. Get the hell rid of the d20 combat system, if you want combat situations to be as fast as in KAP. I'd say; keep the KAP combat system in total, and give them +1 or +2 extra HP per level (depending on class).
9. Also, see to that Major Wounds don't happen too often (resulting in heavy stat losses), since it's hard to raise stats in d20.
10. Make Great Weapon skill, Grappling, Lance skill from KAP into feats that can be bought in levels.
11. Maybe cut down on the number of skills in KAP, to reflect the fact that you don't get very much skill pts per lvl in d20.


Ciao!


I'm not sure the winter phase would work in most D20 campaigns. It seems uniquely suited to a setting like Pendragon (or maybe L5R). In the typical D20 quasi-Tolkien settings most PCs won't own a manner, or settle down to a family, or even have a permanent home, so most of the winter phase becomes moot. Likewise I don't think character classes would work well in Pendragon (unless most classes were restricted to NPCs). The subtle differences between knights would be lost I think if some were 'barbarians,' others 'paladins' and still others generic 'fighters.'

I have to say, I think Pendragon is great as it is, so I'm more thinking of how to incorporate Pendragon's features into a D20 system/setting than the other way around.

Pendragon is great at portraying Author's Britain, and converting it into most other settings would not be that difficult. Usually it's a matter of redefining skills and changing the virtues to suit another time/place. With generic fantasy things get more difficult. I'm not sure the P5 (or P4) system would work in a place like Faerun (ie Forgotten Realms) or Greyhawk. Magic and non-humans are too common in comparison to Pendragon. That's only one of the the most obvious problems, but there would be scads of others I'm sure. Besides which, it's easier to incorporate elements on Pendragon, virtues and passions for example, than it is to convert D20/(A)D-n-D to Pendragon, which brings up questions such as 'how does a a 38 year old knight with a size of 15 make a saving through versus wands?'

In almost every way I think Pendragon is the better system. However I still enjoy the D-n-D settings. At the end of the day I'm really interested in seeing how D20 can benefit from an infusion of P5 than mucking up P5 with elements of D20.

In almost every way I think Pendragon is the better system. However I still enjoy the D-n-D settings. At the end of the day I'm really interested in seeing how D20 can benefit from an infusion of P5 than mucking up P5 with elements of D20.
I agree on this. I was just feeling creative, and (now obviously) misinterpreted what you meant by "hybridize the D20 system with P5 (and/or P4)".

// M

I'm not sure the winter phase would work in most D20 campaigns.


What about Eberron? Winter phases (with modifications) would certainly work well for characters who are heirs to certain Dragonmarked Houses.

I'm not sure the winter phase would work in most D20 campaigns.


What about Eberron? Winter phases (with modifications) would certainly work well for characters who are heirs to certain Dragonmarked Houses.


I'm not familiar with Eberron as a setting, although from the little I've heard it's fantasy-steampunk, which just doesn't seem to pique my interest. Most of the quasi-Middle Earth settings put out over the years (Krynn, Faerun, Greyhawk...) were fun, but I can never get my head around the idea of technology in a fantasy setting.

It also would depend on how your group handles the passage of time. I knew of one group where no one wanted to play short lived races because the campaign would go on for 100+ years game time. On the other hand when I was a kid we didn't even keep track of time beyond hours in our campaigns. No one got old, and I don't think we ever considered the possibility. After all who wants to play a middle aged elf?

On the other hand the winter phase (with obvious modifications) might be just the thing for a hard-ish science fiction campaign in which ships do take a long time traveling between points. If it takes 6 months to get to Tau-Ceti-Sigma 6, then you'd want your characters to use the time for some skill development.

On a bigger note, I think it goes to show how much cross-pollination one can achieve with Pendragon. Regardless of the game setting itself (which is, don't get me wrong, great) the game system has a lot of flexibility to it.

Granted I haven't been playing P5 so long, and the honeymoon-effect may wear off in time, but I think overall it's definitely one of the best games I've played in terms of mechanics.