Another thing.
In those knightly movies you often see one knight falling to the ground and the other either putting a sword to his throat or jumping on him, holding a dagger above his visor slit, consequently demanding to fallen knight to yield.
How does this work in Pendragon?
First thought is that when a knight is knocked down, the standing knight can demand the yield (given the +5/-5 this is reasonable).
Perhaps some grappling move? How do other do this?

wwfg,
Thijs

Declarations during the round after being knocked down is when most offers to yield would be made. I would generally do the declaration along with a defensive stance.

As to whether the offer is accepted, well merciful/cruel, forgiving/vengeful and just/arbitrary are appropriate trait pairs to consider; but if passions are in play then that might change things.

Regards
Luke

I always allow the defender to cry "yield!" before the rolls are made. I do it after the declarations, so players declare their targets and then start taking actions, at which point the yielding occurs (and may or may not be accepted - if not, the yielder gets to fight or defend normally).
This means that if, say, 4 player-knights are fighting 4 enemy knights, and one of the enemy knights yields, during that round at least the player knight is still occupied even if he accepts the yielding (then the squire takes the prisoner and the player can return to assist his allies if appropriate).

Does anyone use Valorous checks as 'Morale' for NPCs for Yielding?
If so, what modifiers?
I a player yells 'yield or die' there is not much roleplaying in there that I can play out... hence a roll seems in place.
But of course a knight laying on the ground with a major wound and no weapon will more likely surrender than one who has only been knocked down.
My guess would be
-5 Major Wound
-5 Unarmed
-5 Knocked Down
-glory opponent /1000
+own glory/1000
+ amount weapon skill above 15

I know that some of my players will prefer certain opponents to yield and hence 'optimise' for yield-modifiers/conditions...

Ideas?

fg,
Thijs

I generally have knights yield if they are below half hit points, and are given the opportunity.

The main exceptions are:
* If they are very proud or valorous or reckless (don't roll, they just refuse if 16+)
* The fight is a situation where yielding would cause loss of honour or other passion (like, the players are intent on killing the knight's liege: test loyalty)
* the player offering is also very badly injured (in this case, the knight may say, "I will not yield, but shall we call it a draw?") and the victim can reasonably assume the fight can still go either way

On those occasions where the knights won't yield, I have had players offer again after another knockdown or wounding blow. In such a case, if the player really wants the knight to yield, I let them make an appropriate trait or passion roll v. the victim's trait or passion, and if they win, the knight yields.

I do all of this very differently. But that is because i use unconscious level a little differently. I guess most people say that if u are at a quarter of ur hit points, u automatically fall down stone unconcious, but i interpret it as you being unable to fight and perhaps take any action that requires movement, but that you are usually barely coherent or sometimes in and out of conciousness, and you can still speak and observe things, you are just not strong enough to take physical action. In fact there was a rule, i believe , that did even let u take physical action with a valorous roll at negative modifiers followed by a currrent hit point roll. although i only let players do that to save their life. In this way it gives a knight the chance to realize he is truly defeated and then make an appropriate trait or pasion roll to yield or refuse. After all, if a knight was at still on his feet fighting me why would i really expect him to yield unless he was a coward? I dont know. thats just how i do it. :-\

We do see things differently.
There's nothing cowardly about yielding - it's in fact honorable in a way to acknowledge your opponent is superio, and accept defeat gracefully. It's only cowardly if you try to avoid the consequences of defeat, by lying or using trickery to escape, or abandoning comrades in their moment of need.

I do allow people to be conscious if they drop below unconscious level, they just can't take any action. They are so badly injured their bodies don't work any more, but they may drift in and out of consciousness, have moments of lucidity followed by delirium. I leave the player to roleplay this however he wants.

This means that, between fights when the players are deciding what to do and where to go, the player of the 'unconscious' character can still particpate. But if anything requires rolls (any roll, from trait, passion, skill, or stat), he isn't involved.

There's nothing cowardly about yielding - it's in fact honorable in a way to acknowledge your opponent is superior, and accept defeat gracefully. It's only cowardly if you try to avoid the consequences of defeat, by lying or using trickery to escape, or abandoning comrades in their moment of need.


Courage is not the willingness to die. Your liege lord does not expect you to die needlessly; and a knight, he does not expect to kill you--ransom is much better.

And if the Master of the Templar knights has critted his Love God roll and will charge into that enemy force that outnumbers and outmaneuvers you, and you've been in the desert without water for three days and they burned the damned field and now smoke is in your eyes...
And if you do not join that madness, but wait, or even surrender...
And if you get home alive...
I do not think anyone could justly call you a coward.



I do allow people to be conscious if they drop below unconscious level, they just can't take any action. They are so badly injured their bodies don't work any more, but they may drift in and out of consciousness, have moments of lucidity followed by delirium. I leave the player to roleplay this however he wants.
This means that, between fights when the players are deciding what to do and where to go, the player of the 'unconscious' character can still particpate. But if anything requires rolls (any roll, from trait, passion, skill, or stat), he isn't involved.


I made the Unconscious Level to force characters to survive.
Darren and Palomides' attitudes ont his are correct though: no need to stop playing, just stop doing things.

After further review , I agree, it is unfair to call the knight who yields a coward. I still maintain that while u are up with a sword in your hand it would be half-hearted of u to yield. But i see your point on my use of the word cowardly. i just mean in game mechanics terms it seems to me that to yield before reaching the unconcious level is a little weaksauce!!!!!! hahahah :D it simply seems like a good marker to indicate that u gave it your all but your opponent was just too good. If u give in before that point how could a true knight be satisfied with himself! HAHA ;)

We have a lot of modern day fiction telling us that "death before dishonour", but try to forget all that. As Greg says, "Your lord does not expect you to die needlessly"

If you are defending your lord against enemies that would certainly kill him if you were defeated, then you should probably fight on till death. Most situations aren't that clear-cut: your duty is to remain alive to serve your lord and support your family, without losing honour.

When I'm a player, I consider three things:

1. Am I fighting knights (or bandits!) who will keep me alive and give me up for ransom? Am I fighting foes known to break their word and kill their prey, like monsters and sometimes saxons? In the latter case, yielding may not be an option - but some savage opponents act honorably, so if I think i'm losing, i may engage them in repartee and try to feel out how they would react. (Assuming I was knight not known for recklnessness anyway!)

2. What are the campaign consequences if I get captured and locked up for years? If my knight is old, and has heirs of age, it's easier to decide to accept a valiant death if that's the way the dice roll. Or, if my knight has time-dependent plans in motion, like winning the heart of a lady before my rival does, then I'll fight harder to avoid yielding.
And OOC, of course, if I have a backup character or two ready to play or that have already been played, yielding is easier.

3. Finally, I'll consider my opponent and the likelihood that any given hit leads to death. This is the most important one, but the above two do affect my decision-making. If my opponent is clearly higher skilled than me, BUT doesn't do a lot of damage, then I will happily fight right up to the unconsciously level. Lots of 2-3 point hits are wiped clean with first aid, and any individual blow is unlikely to kill me outright (barring the dreaded critical). If my opponent is doing enough damage that I can expect his next blow to kill me, I have to decide: do I have a good chance of taking him out before then? When a foe is doing 10-15 points after armour per blow, and I'm at half my hit points, that's the time to yield unless I think the odds are in my favour.

As a GM, I strongly encourage players to consider yielding whenever their hit points drop below half, and if they are facing high damage opponents (who aren't monsters), as soon as they get hit. They rarely listen - and sometimes they win, and sometimes they die...