copying from gspendragon.com


Honor Regained: Apologies

Normal apologies, according to the norms of the time, are known by everyone. They can resolve differences and regain Honor lost for disobedience.

For a little thing: public apology. With a bow, the offender admits his guilt; the offence is acknowledged and an apology extended to the offended party. If it is publicly accepted, forgiveness is granted (and Honor point regained). Both parties get checks for Modest and Courtesy.

For something that matters: public humbling. Kneeling, the offender admits what he did, states what that offense was, and asks to speak with the offended party. He submits quietly to scathing personal remarks from the offended party, for which he acknowledges responsibility, expresses grief over it and its consequences, and asks to be forgiven. If he is, then he regains the lost Honor. The guilty party gets checks to: Modest, Forgiving, courtesy.

For something really important: public humiliation. Prone, the offender admits to being worthless and begs for mercy. He submits quietly to scathing personal remarks and physical blows from the offended party, expresses grief, apologizes, promises anything and begs some more. Something must generally be lost: money, gifts, favors, etc. Churches scourge offenders here. If (after all this) mercy is granted then the offender regains the lost Honor. The formerly guilty party gets checks to: Modest, Forgiving, Courtesy. The forgiving party gets checks to Forgiving and Generous.

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1) I noticed that the forgiving party does not get any checks for "For something that matters:", I assume Forgiving, Generous and Courtesy?
2) Shouldnt the forgiving party for "For something really important" also gain a merciful check?
Perhaps also a Just or Arbitrary depending on the inflicted punishment?

Also I fear abuse by players who both want to be modest, by constantly insulting and apologizing to one another, hence gaining free modest and courtesy checks...

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Honor Loss

1 point: for a minor offense (puking at a royal feast, calling someone by the wrong name, ambiguous comment in public about some virtue, being scolded at Camelot by Sir Kay for the first time)

So you loose 1-5 points of honour when someone else insults you?
And in order to gain it back you yourself have to apologize?
"You are a pig.
- Yes, you're right, I am sorry"

Somehow, I guess that's not right, and this lost honour point can only be regained by making the other party apologize (which they of course only do after yielding in a challenge).
If so, then honor can be rightly used as passion for these fights, as honor will be lowered if the fight is lost?
[And not proud as mentioned in some discussions]

Is it then also that a proud knight looses more honour for receiving the same insult as a modest knight (because a proud knight is more easily insulted)?

"You are a bad lute player"
Modest: "You are right, I need to train" (Play Lute - 8)
Proud: "How dare you, consider yourself challenged" (Play Lute - 3)
Will both knights now loose 1 honour (assuming the proud knight lost the challenge), or will the modest knight avoid the honour loss?

Will you get a bonus to your honor passion roll if you defend your honor in a challenge against a major insult (compared to a minor insult)?
I would give a bonus equal to the perceived honor-loss
[so proud knights can claim larger bonuses, but then he better be sure to not lose or he will indeed lose that many points]

Ideas?

wfg,
Thijs

Nobody any input?

fg,
Thijs

1) I noticed that the forgiving party does not get any checks for "For something that matters:", I assume Forgiving, Generous and Courtesy?
2) Shouldnt the forgiving party for "For something really important" also gain a merciful check?

1. ok
2. sure
I am going to review these , btw. Comments welcome before hand.


Perhaps also a Just or Arbitrary depending on the inflicted punishment?


Maybe so. The whole point of this is Justice, and the social rules know the limits of what is Just or not in a response, so an arbitrary check is appropriate, and depending on the circumstances I can see adding Cruel, Vengeful or something else that motivates the injustice.



Also I fear abuse by players who both want to be modest, by constantly insulting and apologizing to one another, hence gaining free modest and courtesy checks...


Clowns engaging in this nonsense would likely lose Honor after a couple of bouts.





Honor Loss

1 point: for a minor offense (puking at a royal feast, calling someone by the wrong name, ambiguous comment in public about some virtue, being scolded at Camelot by Sir Kay for the first time)


So you loose 1-5 points of honour when someone else insults you?


No, just "someone."
The High Seneschal of the High Court of King Arthur Pendagon; the brother of the king; the highest ranking man at court other than the king himself...
And he is usually right.
It is part of his job to weed out the posers, the phonies who are looking for a free meal or have convictions equal to he calluses on their hands. His word is gold--it's supergold. He's seen hundreds of knights come into this court all goo goo and starry eyed and utterly unprepared for either its ettiquite or rigors of combat.

So yea, when HE says something, everyone listens, and if you are found wanting, you lose honor for it.


And in order to gain it back you yourself have to apologize?


No, of course you go out and prove that he is wrong.



Is it then also that a proud knight looses more honour for receiving the same insult as a modest knight (because a proud knight is more easily insulted)?

"You are a bad lute player"
Modest: "You are right, I need to train" (Play Lute - 8)
Proud: "How dare you, consider yourself challenged" (Play Lute - 3)
Will both knights now loose 1 honour (assuming the proud knight lost the challenge), or will the modest knight avoid the honour loss?


Certain insults require Honor to be defended. Anything that impugns your honesty and character, the faithfulness of your wife or daughter, and the good name of your family must be defended.

Playing a lute does not ordinarily fall into that category of defending Honor.
Now, I can imagine some players who would take Lute Playing as some kind of deep, personal meaning intertwined with his soul and good word, thus worth of defending with his Honor.
I think such fanaticism is kind of loony, and doesn't require any rules from me.

Give the bad lute player a Reckless check for that exchange.

Did I ever collect all those comments of mine about Honor into one place?



Will you get a bonus to your honor passion roll if you defend your honor in a challenge against a major insult (compared to a minor insult)?


I woldn't bother with making an exceptin like that

--Greg