Hi all,
both in 5th and 4th edition default characters start with D6+1 Young knights in there family.
Lets say 6 starting knights and your have around 25 young knights in those families with 6 PC, means that of Salisbury 75 knights almost half are in the Players family... Isnt that overkill?

The esquires (able-bodied men, as explained by Greg on his homepage) I dont worry about.
How do other people handle this?

fg,
Thijs

I struggled a bit with this too.

It says elsewhere in the rules that to begin with no older brother can be knights before the player, so what I did was make any older brothers illegitimate and younger brother household knights. Either that or I made them men-at arms, knights in all but name. That could of course be very wrong! :)

The family knights aren't necessarily in Logres. It's common for family knights to be scattered over several counties.

I struggled a bit with this too.

It says elsewhere in the rules that to begin with no older brother can be knights before the player, so what I did was make any older brothers illegitimate and younger brother household knights. Either that or I made them men-at arms, knights in all but name. That could of course be very wrong! :)


"knights in all but name" are esquires, as described by Greg (as I understand) and fall under 3D6+5 'other able-bodied men'

fg,
Thijs

"knights in all but name" are esquires, as described by Greg (as I understand) and fall under 3D6+5 'other able-bodied men'

fg,
Thijs
[/quote]

Yes, esquires. Also, because my starting knights were 20-21 I thought any younger siblings were just too young to be knights. Cousins were the exception, if older.

YPWV.
Your Pendragon Will Vary. :)



both in 5th and 4th edition default characters start with D6+1 Young knights in there family.
Lets say 6 starting knights and your have around 25 young knights in those families with 6 PC, means that of Salisbury 75 knights almost half are in the Players family... Isnt that overkill?


What does "overkill" mean here?

It sounds like you mean, "Isn't this too much influence for the player knights' families to have?"

Or, exactly what?

YPWV.
Your Pendragon Will Vary. :)



both in 5th and 4th edition default characters start with D6+1 Young knights in there family.
Lets say 6 starting knights and your have around 25 young knights in those families with 6 PC, means that of Salisbury 75 knights almost half are in the Players family... Isnt that overkill?


What does "overkill" mean here?

It sounds like you mean, "Isn't this too much influence for the player knights' families to have?"

Or, exactly what?



Too much influence and/or too 'unlikely'.
Even the famous Orkney and de Ganis clans were not so big... [and they were clans of famous kings not simple manor knights].

fg,
Thijs

I want to make it clear, btw, that I'm expressing my thoughts and reasons here, not demanding that anyone toe the line.





What does "overkill" mean here?
It sounds like you mean, "Isn't this too much influence for the player knights' families to have?"
Or, exactly what?

Too much influence


The influence that your player knight, and his family, has is entirely up to the GM of course.
This is especially important in the Anarchy Period.



and/or too 'unlikely'.


Forgive me, I need to ask "in what manner?"
Based on the following quote, it seems like you mean "an unlikely number of knights in one family."




Even the famous Orkney and de Ganis clans were not so big... [and they were clans of famous kings not simple manor knights].



Here is a list of Orkney knights, just off the top of my head: Gawaine, Agravaine, Gaheris, Gareth, Mordred, Galegantis, Ywaine of the Lion, Yvonet, Ywaine the Bastard, the other Ywaine (lusty ol' Uriens wasn't too imaginative when it came to naming his boys).
That is ten famous knights.

One family? Yes, indeed.
KAP5 p 32
Family Knights: Your relatives who are knights, whether uncles, brothers or other relations.

-- Greg

Personally, I like having lots of family knights because:

My games often have high body counts, especially in the early years where the armour is poor (and where players new to Pendragon learn that there's nobody around with a wand of Cure Light Wounds). Lots of family knights provides players with new knights to play when they get dead.
"Clans" like the Orkneys and the de Ganis knights give some major protagonists a lot of influence on the "national" level. I like the idea of my player knights being comparably influential within the local setting of Salisbury, and having a reasonably large family helps!
Family knights are handy "warm backups" when player knights are wounded and can't go adventuring.
It gives me plenty of local NPCs which helps Salisbury become a place filled with familiar faces and places, which makes the party feel more like Salisbury really is "home".

Lets say 6 starting knights and your have around 25 young knights in those families with 6 PC, means that of Salisbury 75 knights almost half are in the Players family... Isnt that overkill?

Not really - the six knights in your example probably form the entire 'graduating class' for their county that year, so it wouldn't be especially unusual that they are related to a significant fraction of the county's chivalric population.

In any case, just because the PC knights get along it doesn't mean their families do, so there's no reason to suppose the 'PK faction' is especially dominating at the Earl's court.

Finally there's what Darren said - a goodly chunk of their relatives will be in different counties/kingdoms.

Regards
Luke

Having said that many knights will be scattered in different counties, i'm suddenly intrigued by the idea of a campaign where they aren't. Where the 4-5 PCs and their 4-5 family knights each make up a large chunk of Salisbury knights.
This would make for great politics! In my games, when it comes to political matters, the players are rarely of one voice - it's not as if they'll band together and form a political bloc to dominate salisbury. And if they do, they will be temporary alliances, that fall apart quite dramatically at fun moments.
I could have similar npc knights with families of their own, and create alliances through marriage and/or knight positions, and some pcs will be willing to ally with some npcs, and others won't.
It sounds like a lot of fun, and will reinforce the idea that the player knights are important people in their realm.

Having said that many knights will be scattered in different counties, i'm suddenly intrigued by the idea of a campaign where they aren't. Where the 4-5 PCs and their 4-5 family knights each make up a large chunk of Salisbury knights.
This would make for great politics! In my games, when it comes to political matters, the players are rarely of one voice - it's not as if they'll band together and form a political bloc to dominate salisbury. And if they do, they will be temporary alliances, that fall apart quite dramatically at fun moments.
I could have similar npc knights with families of their own, and create alliances through marriage and/or knight positions, and some pcs will be willing to ally with some npcs, and others won't.
It sounds like a lot of fun, and will reinforce the idea that the player knights are important people in their realm.


This is how my Salisbury-based campaigns will work. I am looking forward to the Anarchy Phase of my new campaign - large player knight families really strengthen the case for the PKs to have a natural role in the county's politics. I can already see that there will be at least two political blocs between my group of player knights.

Another thing to consider is that there are a number of instances not long before the GPC starts where scores of knights die. It's reasonable to believe that a number of smaller families no longer exist simply because all the men have been killed by Saxons. This being the case, there should be a number of openings for knights not just in Salisbury, but throughout Lorges and beyond.

Now these counts, dukes, kings and other all need knights for their retinue and they have score of empty positions available. The natural thing for a high noble to do is appoint his sons to fill positions in his household, but that's not going to be enough to fill all the available positions. He might turn to his relatives and so on in surrounding counties, but they'll be short too. So the duke, count, king or whatever asks his few remaining knights for advice on where to locate good men to replace the fallen. The surviving knights will follow the customs of the time and recommend their brothers/cousins/sons/uncles/etc. Suddenly large numbers of closely related knights will become the norm.

Something vaguely similar happened toward the end of the War of the Roses. Enormous numbers of nobles died, and left the ranks of the nobility relatively depleted. On the other hand it created many opportunities for advancement among those that survived (and their kin).

Now you got it.

--g



Having said that many knights will be scattered in different counties, i'm suddenly intrigued by the idea of a campaign where they aren't. Where the 4-5 PCs and their 4-5 family knights each make up a large chunk of Salisbury knights.
This would make for great politics! In my games, when it comes to political matters, the players are rarely of one voice - it's not as if they'll band together and form a political bloc to dominate salisbury. And if they do, they will be temporary alliances, that fall apart quite dramatically at fun moments.
I could have similar npc knights with families of their own, and create alliances through marriage and/or knight positions, and some pcs will be willing to ally with some npcs, and others won't.
It sounds like a lot of fun, and will reinforce the idea that the player knights are important people in their realm.

I've never thought of the issue of so many family knights in regard to the number of knights in the county. But I have been of two minds about both these numbers before, individually.

Firstly, total knights in the realm: I have always taken this number as the minimum number they were to maintain. On the official rolls, Duke NoName is supposed to have 50 knights. However over time he has managed to raise 75. The king can call 50 for a muster and that would leave 25 to guard the realm.

In the family, just because a man is a knight it doesn't mean that all of his sons will also be knights. Just the first is likely to get that honour unless the family is rich and powerful enough.

I confess that I play that anyone can become a knight if the have the skills.

Now you got it.
--g


Hmm, I see the points/reasoning, I never understood it as such from the books that PCs were such power-brokers. Thx.

After all if you have 6 PC's all with backup character you have potentially 132 (1 old, 3 middle-aged, 7 young per PCx12) knights as family..
In my game initially PCs tend to be best buddies (before conflicting passions arise through extended play). That's the combined army of 2 earldoms they could summon. Would someone with more understanding of politics then me (I became astrophysicist for a reason) write or maybe point how to GM/handle such powerbrokering [In previous games I treated PCs with high glory as movie-stars, but never got them involved in politics]??

What is the ration vassal/manor knights in Salisbury or in general (dont have my books here)?

wfg,
Thijs

So you're saying that if you have 12 completely unrelated knights, all of whom randomly have the maximum possible number of relatives, it leads to odd results?

Two obvious solutions spring to mind if you dislike this (highly unlikely!) possibility:
1) make the PCs related, such that their household knights 'overlap' (if two cousin PCs both roll uncles, they could easily be the same man). If you insist that backup knight are younger brothers of your primary PCs, then you halve the potential number straight off!
2) change the randomiser so that it produces a smaller number (e.g. everyone has 1d3 household knights), or just pick a number that you feel is appropriate for your campaign

That said, I assume the 75 knights listed for Salisbury is the number of *vassal* knights, and the total number of knights is somewhat higher.

So you're saying that if you have 12 completely unrelated knights, all of whom randomly have the maximum possible number of relatives, it leads to odd results?




Ok, assume half that for average, still an Earl Army.



That said, I assume the 75 knights listed for Salisbury is the number of *vassal* knights, and the total number of knights is somewhat higher.


No, that's all knights included. According to table in 4th, pg 232 the entourage (which are household knights) are included in the total.

Actually I might guess there are 20 vassal knights only (given the random table for starting default players), though ofcourse this could have been capped at 20 because of the D20 roll.

fg,
Thijs

My general take on all this is to usually have the player's be the only "landed" knights in their respective families, all the other nights are household knights, most of whom live on the players' manors. I usually have players visit each others' manors and have mini-court sessions at each, it's good fun to watch the games of nobility play out in a smaller scale where the players are the power brokers in their own manors rather than an NPC earl, since he isn't really present at these smaller get-togethers. At my Sunday game yesterday we just did a whole game session in the winter of 538, one of the player's set up a small Christmas tourney only open to the household Knights of the other players with the Player Knights being the judges. Since it's winter and far to cold to have standard tourney special events were set up to match the season. It was like a little winter Olympics in Wylye with snow rabbit hunts, sled races by the PK's children and a roast snow fowl eating contest, loads of fun, let me tell you.

Im gonna chime in here with one possible point. Just because you are related to these family knights doesnt mean that a lot of them arent related through marriage,( your sister married a knight and he hardly knows you for instance. and by the way he's 4 counties away and not interested in your county at all) and many of them may not even like or respect your pk, and just because there may be many family knights doesnt mean the players have any influence at all over them. You can mostly count on kin to aid you in your DEFENSE but your not going to just be able to order them around willy nilly or even convince them most times to aid you. More knights doesnt necessarily give your players more power. Also, lets face it.... there is no roleplaying game that is built so perfect that it doesnt have holes 4 players to exploit. If the players choose to exploit rules then the game is often less fun because of it. If you want less family knights simply make the rolls lesser. roll 1d3 if it suits your campaign. This game is very simple. and the beauty of the game is that it is easily tweaked to accomodate anyones playing style. No rule is perfect 4 everyone. ;)

Remember also: the various knights of a county could very well be highly inbred; that is, you might be knocking off your young knights list other PC's from the same county, since they are likely kin to you.

Kin in this case generally meaning related within 4-5 generations, since that's the norm for verbal transmission cultures to trace lineage; some went 10 generations (Jews).

Kin in this case generally meaning related within 4-5 generations, since that's the norm for verbal transmission cultures to trace lineage; some went 10 generations (Jews).


Not according to the family tables in Pendragon where most knights are your uncle, cousins, brothers or brothers-in-law...

fg,
Thijs

This post brought up some interesting points and made me think a bit (horrible yes I know).

Family knights can be a big big power factor in the game, also - if the character dies without old enough heirs, he can play a family knight (and the family knight total goes down). It made me think in the direction of something should be checked during the winter phase, family knights might die (old age, battle, skirmish) or new ones may be knighted. It would be nice to keep a running tally of the amount of available knights in your family... should you need them. Of course, Love Family becomes more important (and it tends to almost have lost its importance otherwise).

Family knights can be a big big power factor in the game, also - if the character dies without old enough heirs, he can play a family knight (and the family knight total goes down). It made me think in the direction of something should be checked during the winter phase, family knights might die (old age, battle, skirmish) or new ones may be knighted. It would be nice to keep a running tally of the amount of available knights in your family... should you need them. Of course, Love Family becomes more important (and it tends to almost have lost its importance otherwise).


Yes, this is all in a theoretical book called Book of the Family, which has (would have) a whole rang of this kind of thing. I am still asking for any additional Family Events or, hey, how about an author to write most of this book? Contact me off line, please.

I recently remade and expanded the winter phase rules and tables for my campaign, and today I added family knights table (found here at the end of step 8 Family Events).

Step 8: Family Events
Roll once on Family Events Table and once on Family Knights Events Table. Find out which family member is concerned, what the scandal is and who the other faction are on the appropriate tables below.

Family Events Table
d20 result
1 Died under questionable circumstances (murder most foul?)
2-3 Death in family
4-5 Missing, may be lost
6 Family made a new enemy
7 Made a really bad decision
8 Family member turned to religion
9-11 Marriage in family
12-16 Birth in family
17-19 Scandal in family (roll on Scandal Table)
20 GM's special

Roll on Family Member Table (below) to find person affected. If the result is ridiculous, like your mother remarrying when your father is alive, reroll.

Family Member Table
d20 person
1-4 Father
5-6 Mother
7-11 Brother
12-13 Sister
14-15 Uncle
16 Aunt
17 Grandfather (even) or Grandmother (odd)
18-19 Cousin
20 Event actually happens to you (at GM's discretion)

Scandal Table
d20 result
1 Insulted their lord
2 Cheated at a tournament
3 Gravely insulted or falsely accused someone (other lord?)
4 Badly in debt
5-7 Adultery accusations
8 Kidnap accusation
9 Horse stealing accusation
10 Other theft accusation
11-14 Illicit love affair
15 Betrayal/Treason rumored
16 Murder rumored
17 Heresy rumored
18 Witchcraft/Necromancy rumored
19-20 Roll again, this time the event is PROVED true! But of course it might be true anyway...

Other Faction Table
d20 result
1-2 A commoner
3-5 An enemy
6-10 Another family member
11-12 Household Knight, Sergeant or Mercenary
13-14 Vassal Knight or Banneret Knight
15 Clergyman
16 An outside Lord or his family/retinue
17 Their Lord or his family/retinue
18 The King or his family/retinue
19-20 You or your immediate family

Family Knight Events Table
d20 result
1 1d3 family knights died or became incapacitated
2 A family knight died or became incapacitated
3 A family knight is involved in a scandal and may ask for help (roll on Scandal Table)
4 A family knight needs to call on you for help
5-6 A family knight is held for ransom
7-17 Nothing significant
18 One of your family knights does something noteworthy, heroic or even spectacular
19 One new family knight is knighted or married in
20 1d3 new family knights are knighted or married in