Automatic actions, p20 : when battle intensity is higher than 25 (or lower than 15), one side is retreating : which maneuver do I have to apply for the NPC (Run Away ?, Withdraw ?).


Good point.

Correction: Automatic Actions
On page 20, the Automatic Action at 15 and 25 is to Withdraw.
The Automatic Action at 40 is Run Away!




What could arrive for a Player unit that won't retreat when a Battle Intensity is higher than 25 (and so, all the NPC units move backward !) ?



Correction: Unit Cohesion, Page 21
Add to text:
Maneuvers marked ** are unusual and do not come up through normal play, but are included because, well, we all know what players can do. Also, an Enemy on Flank indicates engagement with at least two units, Enemy on Two Flanks is fighting with three units, and a unit surrounded fights four.

Add to Table 7
Enemy on Your Flank** +5
Enemy on Two Flanks** +10
Surrounded** +20

--Greg

An other question about the Automatic Actions, p20 :

Do the enemy army just continues to Withdraw for the first time that the Battle Intensity is 0 (the same that Intensity is 15 or lower), then routs at the second consecutive round ?

An other question about the Automatic Actions, p20 :

Do the enemy army just continues to Withdraw for the first time that the Battle Intensity is 0 (the same that Intensity is 15 or lower), then routs at the second consecutive round ?


The key is the Battle Intensity at the tart of the Round.
If they are withdrawing, and the Battle Intensity drops more to 0, then they will rout.

In the example retreat is only started after two rounds of Battle Intensity <15, is that an error?


fg,
Thijs

In the example retreat is only started after two rounds of Battle Intensity <15, is that an error?

Yes, it's an error, see my post (http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=450.0) about the sample battle



If they are withdrawing, and the Battle Intensity drops more to 0, then they will rout.

So, we needn't to wait two consecutive rounds to apply the first automatic action ?

So the moment Battle Intensity drops below 15 the enemy goes in retreat.
Standard battle starts with 20, if we are in homecountry -5, so the enemy automatically retreats at round 1.

Huge Battle starts at 30, your army will retreat before the battle starts unless you have the bad luck of inferior scouting force and they have legendary leader, which means your army will rout on round 2....

You have a 10% of rolling 5+ on 3D6-10 so even a standard battle of 20, has 10% of turning into retreat on round 2..

How will you ever turn a battle into a decisive victory? If the army start retreating at 15, how do you kick it down by 15 more? Pursue will lower it by only 2?
Only killing a leader (which drops it by 10) or plundering camp (-20) has a chance to achieve a decisive victory..
Also the battle ends immediately when one army withdraws (p56) so technically you cant even pursue (but I assume that there is one round of pursuit), so you dont even have time to drop intensity more.


Isnt it better to enforce a retreat on 10/30 instead of 15/25 which are too easy to reach?

fg,
Thijs

...Also the battle ends immediately when one army withdraws (p56)....


I think we should strike "withdraw", in this sentence....

Im confused. I thought that at 15 the enemy Withdrew...not routed or retreated. ? am i wrong? THEN AT 0 INTENSITY THEY ROUTED? WRONG?

I would make the rout the automatic action and let the retreat (start to withdraw) signal be non-automatic (inautomatic ??) variably between say 5 and 15 depending on how desperate the commander is to win, how many vassals that will leave tomorrow, how soon reinforcements might arrive and how humilited he will be to sound the horn up first. I am sure that Greg can flesh this out for us. :)

The 15 marker can instead signal an indescisive victory, with 15 to 25 a draw.

(This ofc assumes that big battle intensity in lowered to 20 and unit intensity risen according to Thijs suggestions in the Battle intensity thread.)

I would give the unit only one more round after the withdraw signal, unless they are in the enemy camp or thereabouts, then they have a problem. :)

If they are withdrawing, and the Battle Intensity drops more to 0, then they will rout.

So, we needn't to wait two consecutive rounds to apply the first automatic action ?


No, but you can if you wish.

So the moment Battle Intensity drops below 15 the enemy goes in retreat.


Well, not the moment, but rather the round.



Standard battle starts with 20, if we are in homecountry -5, so the enemy automatically retreats at round 1.


Yes they could. See Battle Length, p 14, 0-2 rounds
Although the 3d6-10 could alter that



Huge Battle starts at 30, your army will retreat before the battle starts unless you have the bad luck of inferior scouting force and they have legendary leader, which means your army will rout on round 2....

You have a 10% of rolling 5+ on 3D6-10 so even a standard battle of 20, has 10% of turning into retreat on round 2..


Jeez, maybe it IS the automatic action after two round.s :)
Is there a written rule about this in there?



How will you ever turn a battle into a decisive victory? If the army start retreating at 15, how do you kick it down by 15 more? Pursue will lower it by only 2?
Only killing a leader (which drops it by 10) or plundering camp (-20) has a chance to achieve a decisive victory..
Also the battle ends immediately when one army withdraws (p56) so technically you cant even pursue (but I assume that there is one round of pursuit), so you dont even have time to drop intensity more.



Yes. It is extremely difficult to get a decisive victory between equally matched foes.



Isnt it better to enforce a retreat on 10/30 instead of 15/25 which are too easy to reach?


Perhaps so. However, I wold invite everyone to play several times before you try tinkering with it

1.
What I find troubling is that a huge battle has a starting battle intensity of 30 and an automatic retreat every time by our side if the battle intensity is higher than 25 according to the rule on page 20.

The automatic retreat rule (p. 20) obviously cannot work in a huge battle with equally matched forces.

A good solution to this is as Thijs suggested to keep the same intensity by lowering the battle intensity to 20 and raising the unit intensity (Battle zone value) the same amount, eg 10.

With this solution the battle intensity starts within the automatic retreat (p 20) interval of 15 to 25. This also feels good that a battle is evenly matched from the start. The unit intensity is the same, creating the same situation for the knights on the ground. No real tinkering this far, and we saved the auto retreat rule. :)

2a.Now tinkering.( I must admit I like tinkering. :D)
After implementing this solution it is still unlikely to cause a nonscripted decisive victory (or defeat), because as soon as the intensity goes below 15, the retreat sounds.

To get a decisive victory with these rules there must be rules that allow the lowering of battle intensity with 15 in two rounds. (First round and the second retreat round.) (Hmmm... or did I miss any rules that allow for more retreat combat?)

I have not found any rules that let the army composition affect the outcome more than to allow for easy triumphs. The two possible battle outcomes that is affected by force configuration lowers intensity 4. The rest of the way will be achieved but the 3d6-10 adjustment.

11 more intensity to lower. With 2 rounds 6d6-20 should become -11. Start rolling 6d6 and tell me when you get 9 or less, because that is what you need. (It happens once in 600 rolls.)

2b. The second reason why 15, as an automatic retreat value is less than ideal is the application of any factors to the starting intensity. Take for instance a small battle with a normal starting intensity of 20 and one +-5 factor affect the outcome. Immediately you have a starting intensity of 15 (or 25) and again a very short battle as the first 3d6-10 roll will start a retreat 50% of the time.

My impression of many of the scripted battles are that people attack regardless of odds against them and still win. The automatic retreat at 15/25 give a bit too narrow gap and will simulate too many early retreats.

The solution I suggest is to make the withdrawal signal variable between 5 and 15 depending on who the commander is but to keep the automatic rout intact.

The early retreat is imo also a bit too smart for many of the passionate individuals in Pendragon. Just imagine a reckless self declared minor king in a small battle, outnumbered 2:1, outside his castle doing his last stand. Will he really retreat just because the first rounds went badly?