Hi

I fully understand what the Chivalry Bonus is, and how to get it, but my question is this; can a knight get this bonus before chivalry exists? Or is the name merely a colourful and cosmetic one?

My group is starting their campaign in 484, the Uther phase, long before the concept of chivalry is known, hence my reason for asking.

Many thanks
Andy

Yes he can.

Actualy, the chivalry bonus is universal across phases, cultures and social classes. You don't even have to be a knight to have it. The Saxons call it "Armor of Honor" (Saxons! pg. 62).

I fully understand what the Chivalry Bonus is, and how to get it, but my question is this; can a knight get this bonus before chivalry exists? Or is the name merely a colourful and cosmetic one?

My group is starting their campaign in 484, the Uther phase, long before the concept of chivalry is known, hence my reason for asking.



As Edsan said, yes, knights of any period who qualify for the chivalry bonus get it.

Think of it this way: the set of behaviors called Chivalry isn't unknown before Arthur. It is known, like a theory or philosophy, like the kernel of noblesse oblige. But it's not widely practiced, in large part by the brutal nature of the Uther and Anarchy periods. But it "works," nonetheless, for those who manage to maintain it.

I think that King Arthur and his Round Table deliberately followed and encouraged these behaviors, and made them known. Maybe Merlin figured out how Virtue worked and revealed some Gnostic Cosmic Ideal to bring the idea into wider consciousness. Maybe it is your players characters who provide the model for this in all Britain, adopted by King Arthur because he agrees and promotes those ideals.

But knights of any land and any Period get that protection if they qualify.
note: knights.
See next letter

--Greg

See Previous Letter first, then continue here.



Actualy, the chivalry bonus is universal across phases, cultures and social classes. You don't even have to be a knight to have it. The Saxons call it "Armor of Honor" (Saxons! pg. 62).


Though it is published there (thank you so much for the citation!) I am not currently in total agreement.

I have wrestled with this for a long time: whether non-knights get the chivalry bonus.
My current decision: NO.

Pendragon is a book about being a knight.

BoK&L goes to some length to explain the warrior classes of other Homelands, and even says their codes of conduct are similar to the knights'.
But note there, too, that the institution of knighthood is distinctive and makes a break with the old ways.

But a Saxon would not get it.
A Saxon on horse would not get it.
A Saxon who is a knight, by Pendagon definition, and who qualifies for it, would get the Chivalry bonus.

Chivalry is applied only to knights.

And, for that matter, only to Player Character knights (never a PC's NPC Followers) and some Gamemaster Characters.

--Greg

Cleared that up perfectly, thanks.

I'd like to contradict Greg (what would he know, after all?).
The Chivalry Bonus is listed in the 5th edition rulebbook in the "In the future" section, and it does seem supportable within the rules to say that Chivalry only becomes available after it is established in Arthur's court. I've played it several ways:
* It's not available, intil Arthur institutes it
* It's available from the start, you get the benefit but don't get glory (though now I think this doesn't make a lot of sense).
* It's available from the start, you get both the benefit and the glory.

Since Greg has stated that no matter how noble a character acts (all requisite traits at high level) he can't get a Chivalry bonus unless he's a Knight, having it unavailable actually makes sense.

In the GPC it's Arthur who institutes the anachronistic culture of Knighthood and Chivalry when he founds the Round Table. Before that, the Cymri would be in the same boat as the Saxons and others, they aren't Knights (even if referred to as such), they're Dark Age warriors with good horses and armour.

As I see it, either a Chivalry bonus is available to all who qualify, or it's not available to ANYONE prior to the Round Table. Anything else makes no sense.

Ok, a little disclaimer first: everyone's game is his own and you can do whatever you want with it.


That said, here's my rationale why the Chivalry Bonus is open to everyone and has been since the begining of time:

To me personaly, there makes no sense that Arthur or anyone else can come along, say "behave like this" and then poof! every knight who does so magically gets a supernatural power, while those who had been behaving like he said from even back before he was born didn't manifest anything special until he climbed on the soapbox and made his speech.

Unless we decide that the Chivalry Bonus actually comes from HIM, which would make chivlarous knights sort of like the clerics of D&D with Arthur as their deity. ::)

To me it just seems Arthur (or Merlin) took notice that folks who behaved a certain way tended to be more resilient and by pure coincidence that behavior is just the sort of thing that could help establish their New Order. "Chivalry" is just a name-tag they attached to it.

I've been running it as no Chivalry Bonus until Arthur for one simple fact. It isn't just being a Chivalrous Knight ie having 80+ in the Chivalrous traits, the Knight has to swear the oath of Chivalry. As it says in the KAP 5th edition book (pg 167 for those keeping score):


Once he swears this oath, your character gains the benefits of being a Chivalrous knight.

Since Arthur is the one that institutes the Oath of Chivalry, I run it that it is the sacred power of the Oath that gives the Chivalry benefit. It works in my campaign this way, YMMV.

Unless we decide that the Chivalry Bonus actually comes from HIM, which would make chivlarous knights sort of like the clerics of D&D with Arthur as their deity. ::)


There is actually a very good reason for thinking like this. There's an old idea that the king and the land are linked, and it's used very powerfully in arthurian legend.
In my most recent campaign, the character of the high king of england does create effects like this.,
When Arthur is high king, then, his character becoimes part of the way the world works - knights who emulate his chivalry are rewarded.
In my last campaign, I created a different ideal ("True Knight") for the period when Uther was king, that rewards more "might makes right" traits, and which was superseded when Arthur came to the throne. Any rebel kingdoms could keep the old ideal, but as soon as they were conquered by Arthur, none of the knights of that kingdom could keep it any more.
A logical extension of this could be that Chivalry is only available to knights of lands who accept Arthur's kingship or are members of Arthur's court. I didn't go that far, though.

can a knight get this bonus before chivalry exists? Or is the name merely a colourful and cosmetic one?



I can't argue with most of the comments on why or why not it can or should or might be used and not used. There ae plenty of ways to interpret this. I expect that GMs will decide on whether or not they allow it in their campaign.

My "default choice" is to allow it because the player knights can use the protection. The difference between 10 points of armor and 13, or especially between 16 and 19 (with shield) is even more telling.

Also, it'd be fun to Merlin or someone singling out the knights because he detects "something about them," and occasionally setting up a test for them to see if they are all Chaste, etc.

--Greg

Personally I'd think that the Chivalry Bonus is always around, and that it is nothing less than the strength provided by very strong convictions. I imagine that other moral codes, if rigorous enough and the believer fervent enough, would have similar effects - bushido, for instance. Arthur doesn't invent chivalry as much as draw attention to the fact that people ought to be acting in this way, and draws up the rules. Before Arthur, I'd probably not tell people that there was a chivalrous bonus, or how to get it, but I would give them the extra armour if they achieved it. I can imagine some people in the classical world, like the older members of the Nine Worthies, enjoying the benefits of chivalry before chivalry is even codified.

There is one more thing to consider. If Chivalry is not restricted to knights only, and is open to everyone then why cant a .... Zazamanc PEASANT have chivalry bonus. we assume peasants aren't warriors. But if he has a spear and is wielding it... then is he a warrior or not. Hmmmm..... :-\ so we are not just talking about not only different cultures, but then also specific classes, right? It begins to become burdensome. It IS easier to just take the simple route and restrict it to knights only.

I think you could have an exceptional peasant who got the Chivalry bonus. Percivale, in the earlier parts of his story, is basically just a kid with a pointy stick after all.

I think you could have an exceptional peasant who got the Chivalry bonus. Percivale, in the earlier parts of his story, is basically just a kid with a pointy stick after all.


Absolutely not!
He was the son of a knight, and blood shows. Look how naturally he became a great knight!
He was the son of a knight with a pointy stick.

Knights get the chivalry bonus.

--Greg

Hehe, I stand corrected!

Though I still think that an incredible and exceptional peasant (read: a player character who had great justification and played it really well) could be Chivalrous. :)

I think, personally, that I'd say that Chivalry is for individuals of Knightly cultures, and I'd use True Knight for pre-Arthurian Cymri and for any non-chivalric culture.

Meaning that Chivalry comes to France around 500 or so, Britain in 510 when Arthur starts commenting on Chivalry, and elsewhere as Arthur conquers. Equites...not sure which I'd give them, but probably True Knight just to make Arthur special. (I -would- write up a third "Roman Virtue" ideal, but then I'd really be getting generic and away from Arthurian ideals.)

However, during the Boy King period, I'd allow Chivalric and True Knights to coexist in the realm of Arthur, as the ideal of Arthurian knighthood is in its dawning phases. Similarly, France would be transitional between 500 and 525 or so.

Another Idea, and I am just throwing it out there for fun... is to come up with another SPECIAL POWER. instead of chivilric bonus. That way other Non-knightly cultures can compete and their own virtues can play a part in their power. It might be magic armor, or maybe something else? Just an alternative idea.