If folks haven't seen Greg's news yet you may want to look here: http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=478.msg3599#msg3599

This is fantastic news Greg! I wait with great anticipation to see what this might mean for Pendragon!

That's great news. There are a lot of people the world over breathing a sigh of relief and looking forward to its fruit.

I AM VERY EXCITED FOR PENDRAGON THINGS

Great news. My best wishes and hopes to Greg Stafford and Stewart Weick to work together for the future of the game.

Someone peel me down off the ceiling!

The best news I've heard for a long time!

Woooo-hoooo!!!
These are the news we were expecting for a long time!
Hope that everything works well. Also, many thanks to Mr. Wieck for his enthusiasm and love toward the game.

On a different, albeit not completely unrelated, note: I recently noticed that Mr. Stafford is (among) the author(s) of FOUR of the BEST 100 RPG Core Rules according to RPGNet's audience (i.e., RPGNet's Game Index):

#73: Prince Valiant
#30: HeroQuest
#29: RuneQuest
and, drum roll please:
#4 (of 705 listed RPG systems!!) KING ARTHUR PENDRAGON!
Says something, right?

Roberto

Absolutely brilliant! Can't wait to see what develops!

Cheers,
Cam

Huzzah!

Hopefully, however, this doesn't result in KAP being pulled from DTRPG...

I, too, am thrilled at this news. Here's for the continued health of Pendragon and Mr. Stafford!

This really is amazing.

Congratulations, Greg, and also all Pendragon fans who now have hope of seeing it back in print.

I actually noticed that Pendragon's PDFs on DriveThruRPG were now listed under Nocturnal a few days ago, and wondered if there was an official announcement due. This is fantastic news! :)

Nice one, excellent news!

I think all of us are very very very happy for the great news!

Best wishes!

!!! ;D

Great news Greg.

Glad to see someone knows a good thing when they see it. ;D

Happy New Year

Im gonna have to thank Stewart! He's always down 4 pendragon. This puts the ball back in the court of the master. I cant wait to see what happens! ;D

1) This is fantastic! :o

2) Does Stewart Wieck still live in Atlanta? If he does, I need to buy that man (several) beers.

Great news - anybody want to speculate as to whether we'll see a reprint of 5th Ed, much like Green Knight did with 4th Ed, or a new edition?

This is great news!

Great news - anybody want to speculate as to whether we'll see a reprint of 5th Ed, much like Green Knight did with 4th Ed, or a new edition?


I'm certain he'll want to get it back in print again - which means either reprinting 5th, or producing a 6th edition.

I'd love to see a 6th edition and get everything updated, all the errata corrected, and kinks (not that there are that many) worked out. There's been so many innovations since 5th edition.

Wonderful news!

In my imagination, just doing an updated and error-corrected 5.5e would probably get it back out in print faster?

I really like 5e's updates as a whole, although I feel that character generation has become too narrow again especially on skills, so I am actually going back to 4e for that. Thats about the only thing I would really bother with in a new edition, unless you want to go overboard, take the time and really do a 6th edition. My suggestions for that would be to concentrate on really getting the phases clear (seems to me the move from 531 focus to 485 focus in 5e missed quite a few things), as well as getting something better (read less chaotic random) together for battle, jousting and possibly combat options.

Looking hopefully forward to the dawn of a new era of KAP! Awesome!

I really like 5e's updates as a whole, although I feel that character generation has become too narrow again especially on skills, so I am actually going back to 4e for that.


Will you elaborate on that for me pleas?


Thats about the only thing I would really bother with in a new edition, unless you want to go overboard, take the time and really do a 6th edition. My suggestions for that would be to concentrate on really getting the phases

nitpick: Periods
[quote]
clear (seems to me the move from 531 focus to 485 focus in 5e missed quite a few things), as well as getting something better (read less chaotic random) together for battle, jousting and possibly combat options.

My suggestions for that would be to concentrate on really getting the phases clear (seems to me the move from 531 focus to 485 focus in 5e missed quite a few things), as well as getting something better (read less chaotic random) together for battle, jousting and possibly combat options.


Any good ideas 4 a better combat system? I dont find it to be chaotic at all.

I really like 5e's updates as a whole, although I feel that character generation has become too narrow again especially on skills, so I am actually going back to 4e for that.


Will you elaborate on that for me pleas?


Np Greg. IMHO, I prefer a little bit more (controlled) randomness. I felt it was actually harder and took longer with my players to get them to understand how to create the character they wanted in the four step system of 5e instead of just giving them 30 points to spend as they want with some provisions. Automatic 15 in one knightly skill, 10 in three, 4 statiscitcs OR skill points and on top of that 10 points. A bit confusing and took quite a while the first time, even for the people who had some Pendragon experience. Just giving them the points would have been easier.

I ran into the issue of the players not quite making the logical character or what they really wanted due to the effect of more points benefit on the automatic 15 and 10 skills. Why take 15 in a skill that has a base of 10, when you can pick one that has a base of 2? That is 8 more points earned... You easily raise those 10 skill (battle, lance, sword) to 15 anyhow. And since the steps were like that, some of my players ended up redoing it all like 3 times.

It kinda defeated the purpose of simple elegance. I'd prefer just to give the points to spend, with the provision that a knight needs a minimum of X in Y skills and one knightly skill should be 15.

Also, not sure I like so many 10 values to start (10 is such a boring value) but it doesn't bother me comparatively. It does fix the "minimum for a knight" issue I guess. Although I miss the earlier edition Roman knights with 4 in battle and 2 in First aid (thats for women!).

Actually, what does bother me is that this makes basically all starting knights have the same skills, and all of them have 15 in at least three of Battle, Horsemanship, Lance, Sword. That special 15 isn't very special anymore. What I did for my game however was let them get one skill at 16 to standout. But in hindsight I felt that was too much as they started young. Something like top skill 15, and then max 12 or 14 in the rest maybe (but this is another discussion).




nitpick: Periods


Hehehe, maybe my memory is off... But back in the day I'm sure everyone called it phase 1,2,3 etc...

My suggestions for that would be to concentrate on really getting the phases clear (seems to me the move from 531 focus to 485 focus in 5e missed quite a few things), as well as getting something better (read less chaotic random) together for battle, jousting and possibly combat options.


Any good ideas 4 a better combat system? I dont find it to be chaotic at all.


Actually, I may need to clarify myself a bit. It wasn't really the "combat" system I meant (It's basically been my favorite since I really "got" it, and that is like 20 years ago now). It's simple, elegant and works great.
What I really did mean was Battle (which I'm sure Greg has improved marvelously in BoB - which I have now ordered) and primarily jousting/opposing lance charges.

And I do have some ideas and suggestions, and my own implemented house rules and tweaks. Which I recently posted for discussion under rules questions.

To be specific, what has bothered me are a few things:

Critical chance is always 5%, regardless if skill is 1 or 20. Then it races away of course... It works great for the game, but I like neater "probability curves", it should pay to be good (although after 20 it tend to pay too much). I have some tweaks to that (see under rules questions).

Jousting in the game is very far away from reality or romance and far too random. It fast and it WORKS (somewhat) though, but it has bothered me for ages. I don't like it and I don't think it makes for good and play-enjoyable first charges, tournaments etc. I should and I'm a tinkerer (see House Rules threads under Rules Questions yet again).

Don't get me wrong now my fellow KAP lovers, I'm uber happy with Pendragon as a whole and it's the best most adapted and smooth RPG system out there (and I read and played hundreds). But that is no reason not to discuss options. And please feel free to point out the flaws in my thinking and why the ideas are bad or just don't work, and of course, come with better ideas... I'm here to talk and to improve my own game.

First off, Hurrah!

I hope Greg doesn't have to sleep for too many weeks to pay for this bit of magic. :)




Secondly, I have to agree with Achamian, and add my (and my players') dissatisfaction with 5th Edition character generation, so much so that for my new Pendragon campaign (I managed to get them back form Magic: the Gathering!) I am seriously considering running KAP 4 instead (well, for that reason and because 4th Edition needs less correcting). We like rolling attributes and traits, spending skill points on skills and such, and the new method is neither simpler nor more fun.

For what it's worth, we didn't like the character generation from KAP 3 for the same reason, and were greatly relieved with Knights Adventurous came out.

While I can understand why something like the full generation rules from Knights Adventurous/KAP 4 isn't included in KAP 5, I really wish that advanced generation for Salisbury Knights was included as an option. While The Book Of Knight's & Ladies apparently fixes this, it is currently out of print, and not available. IMO K&L probably sold out so fast in large part because it has the alternate character generation method.

Sorry Greg, I don't mean to "bash" KAP 5, just stating a preference, and a belief that most Pendragon players probably preferred a rolled method (even if it is just for vassal knight) than the allocate and pick method than is standard in KAP 3 & KAP 5.

Hurrah

That's great news... :D

Me and my players are very very happy !

Long live for KAP !

I hope Greg doesn't have to sleep for too many weeks to pay for this bit of magic. :)


That may explain a couple of things around here! :)



Secondly, I have to agree with Achamian, and add my (and my players') dissatisfaction with 5th Edition character generation, so much so that for my new Pendragon campaign (I managed to get them back form Magic: the Gathering!) I am seriously considering running KAP 4 instead (well, for that reason and because 4th Edition needs less correcting). We like rolling attributes and traits, spending skill points on skills and such, and the new method is neither simpler nor more fun.


I have to agree with that.



For what it's worth, we didn't like the character generation from KAP 3 for the same reason, and were greatly relieved with Knights Adventurous came out.

While I can understand why something like the full generation rules from Knights Adventurous/KAP 4 isn't included in KAP 5, I really wish that advanced generation for Salisbury Knights was included as an option. While The Book Of Knight's & Ladies apparently fixes this, it is currently out of print, and not available. IMO K&L probably sold out so fast in large part because it has the alternate character generation method.


It doesn't have it, it IS the advanced character generation. :)
Please reiterate for me what you mean by "advanced generation" here.




Sorry Greg, I don't mean to "bash" KAP 5, just stating a preference, and a belief that most Pendragon players probably preferred a rolled method (even if it is just for vassal knight) than the allocate and pick method than is standard in KAP 3 & KAP 5.



Please do not every apologize for making a valid statement.
35 years or professional publishing have educated me to when something is a legitimate criticism (like here).
It's the only way I can learn your opinions!

Just FYI, some people loath the random generation--you know these types who can't roll a die to save their lives.
But in fact, everyone in my game rolls characters randomly, win or lose.

If I can offer the dissenting opinion I'd rather not see a new edition. I do see the appeal of launching a new one, especially if it turns out to be a flagship product for a new niche publishing company. I simply don't see much that needs to be changed beyond maybe some layout tweaks or consolidation of the gspendragon published books.

I'm going to parse my next part extremely carefully and want to stress that I don't feel authors owe their customers anything nor do I feel something should be owed me. I've been only too happy to support what's become my favorite game with higher price point purchases but I could see the potential for a few hard feelings were those purchases to be invalidated with a brand new edition.

But the main thrust of this post is that I just don't see a lot of need for a brand new edition. I would suggest you release two books: the Pendragon rules as they exist now, more or less, and an advanced book which is a compilation of the rules released since it became a more self-published project. I would also suggest having a couple different starting times in the base rules, both Uther and perhaps Romance or some other Pax Arthuriana time.

None of which is to suggest this isn't fabulous, awesome news. It's great to see it with new momentum behind it and I hope all the best for the line, whatever your decisions on how to proceed. I'll be one of the first in line once it's back!

Secondly, I have to agree with Achamian, and add my (and my players') dissatisfaction with 5th Edition character generation, so much so that for my new Pendragon campaign (I managed to get them back form Magic: the Gathering!) I am seriously considering running KAP 4 instead (well, for that reason and because 4th Edition needs less correcting). We like rolling attributes and traits, spending skill points on skills and such, and the new method is neither simpler nor more fun.


I have to agree with that.



Hear hear...





While I can understand why something like the full generation rules from Knights Adventurous/KAP 4 isn't included in KAP 5, I really wish that advanced generation for Salisbury Knights was included as an option. While The Book Of Knight's & Ladies apparently fixes this, it is currently out of print, and not available. IMO K&L probably sold out so fast in large part because it has the alternate character generation method.


It doesn't have it, it IS the advanced character generation. :)


Actually this is the perfect division. Put the options in a separate supplement so not to overload the core rulebook. (Better for business too I guess). If I may be so bold though: It is NOT an excuse to simpify (stupidify?) the character generation in the core rules.

As mature as KAP is, I'm pretty sure you have a clear idea how its gonna work in the "advanced generation", so bring that back, but with lesser (or no) options for the main book - but still use points etc. I.e. make core rules and add-on rules compatible.

My suggestion would be to allow for a few more "homelands" in the core rules (1d6 worth of Logres maybe?), but keep it Tight. 3 religions; british christian, roman christian, pagan. Provision for Squire, Mercenary, Household and Vassal knight, no more. Possibly only Cymric characters, but maybe just stats/choice for Roman as well (although vs older editions, youd get the problem of differing base values for skills - so perhaps just leave that be). The key word here is "compatible", that is - the same as in BoKL (which I don't have yet, but I imagine it to be somewhat like Knights Adventurous/4th ed).



Just FYI, some people loath the random generation--you know these types who can't roll a die to save their lives.
But in fact, everyone in my game rolls characters randomly, win or lose.


Easy solution (which is done in many games): Make the rules CLEAR on the two options so every GM can choose. 3d6 per stat or 60 points. It doesn't even take an extra page in the rules.

FYI, my players have to roll everything... Including stats, traits, passions, amount of skill points etc...
It makes every character more unique and special! However, I do understand the people who want order and fixed points, but give us both what we want! :)

Damn... I sound like such a whiner here... LOL ;)

And of course.. plug the add-on book shamelessly straight there in the core rules book :)

Id have to read Book of knights & Ladies Again and its not near me, but I think that there are a few different ways to generate your character, and one is " Ramdom method ", and one is the " SHAPED " method and there is also a " point "method i believe either in that book or in Kap 5? I might be mistaken but I thought it was in one of those. And while it differs from 4th edition, it does so with the purpose that the players are assured to be KNIGHTS. Some people like playing warriors or magicians and thats cool, but I think the point with 5th was to bring the game closer to matching the literature. In the literature its the knights that r the center of attention. I mean, of course only Greg knows if that was truly the purpose , but I believe that he wrote this somewhere and I read it. for me The 5th edition doesnt have as much variety but what it does is normalizes a party and makes everyone more or less equal and ensures that they all have a chance to participate on equal footing( like being able to use book of the manor and to be together with each other in battles). the new material that greg has come out with does work easier with knights, i think. I remember only qualifying as a warrior in 4th edition and everyone else was a knight so I kind of CARRIED THE BAGS so to speak... bummer! ;D So this works pretty well ( at least in my humble opinion) and BoKand ladies gives it a decent amount of variety and color so that while everyone is generally equal, they also can be unique. I dont know, i just enjoy it 5th when joined with BofK&L. But I know some people enjoy the full randomeness and scope of 4th edition too. :) Everyonehas made some very interesting points and I for one am excited to see how this would affect a 6th edition if one were to come out.

It doesn't have it, it IS the advanced character generation. :)
Please reiterate for me what you mean by "advanced generation" here. [/quote]

Okay. What I mean by "Advanced Character Generation" is the ability to roll attributes, traits, and spend points of skills as in 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, Knights Adventurous, 4th Edition, and Knights & Ladies.

While having rules for generating Knights from all off Christendom (and beyond) is certainly nice, with all the added customization that makes Knights from other lands different from each other, it is the advantages of the random method that I wish was included in the 3rd and 5th edition core book.

With the designed method I don't think there is much variance among starting knights. Few players will want so skimp on an attribute (except maybe APP) and few players choose to take "negative" traits.

As I posted previously, I'm starting up a new campaign, and I know my experience Pendragon players don't like the "designed method" (so much so that they have already started throwing money at me to pay for the elusive Book of Knights & Ladies). So that is making 4th Edition more appealing, despite 5th Edition have some nice new bits.


BTW,
Where should we post stuff from 5th edition that is suspicious and possibly needs correcting, like kept women requiring 10L per year for maintenance (kept Baronness? :o) and not being able to exceed cultural maximums with the Glory Bonus?

I thought 5th Edition was a lot more "radical" than it actually is until you mentioned the bit about editors and the divided attack rule.









Please do not every apologize for making a valid statement.
35 years or professional publishing have educated me to when something is a legitimate criticism (like here).
It's the only way I can learn your opinions!

Thank You. You might be surprised as to how many professional gamers get upset over criticism, valid or otherwise. And it is also very easy to take something out of context when it's in print. It is quite a pleasure to meet someone who can accept criticism. You are no doubt earning glory each year for that.



Just FYI, some people loath the random generation--you know these types who can't roll a die to save their lives.

I know the type. I for one, tend to do good when rolling low is good, and terrible when rolling high is good. The same guys who laugh at me when playing something like D20 are scared of me in something like RuneQuest, HeroQuest or (as they run for cover) Flashing Blades.



But in fact, everyone in my game rolls characters randomly, win or lose.


That is what I usually do, although I'd probably give players the option of either method, especially for first timers.

I just wish enough of the random method was included in the book to generate Salisbury Knights randomly.

I don't suppose you'd be willing to tell me the info we'd need to randomly roll up landed knights from Salisbury? Just the stuff that is different from 4th edition?

While I can understand why something like the full generation rules from Knights Adventurous/KAP 4 isn't included in KAP 5, I really wish that advanced generation for Salisbury Knights was included as an option. While The Book Of Knight's & Ladies apparently fixes this, it is currently out of print, and not available. IMO K&L probably sold out so fast in large part because it has the alternate character generation method.


I hope that's why, since it's all there in in the book!! :)
K&L ought to be back next week.



Actually this is the perfect division. Put the options in a separate supplement so not to overload the core rulebook. (Better for business too I guess). If I may be so bold though: It is NOT an excuse to simpify (stupidify?) the character generation in the core rules.


Heck, it is simple enough now! :D

...but I think that there are a few different ways to generate your character, and one is " Ramdom method ", and one is the " SHAPED " method and there is also a " point "method i believe either in that book or in Kap 5?



That is correct.
And I think it makes it pretty clear that the GM decides which method to use in his game.



I might be mistaken but I thought it was in one of those. And while it differs from 4th edition, it does so with the purpose that the players are assured to be KNIGHTS.


Correct.

I hope that's why, since it's all there in in the book!! :)

I didn't see random generation in the KAP 5 book. Just the designed method.



K&L ought to be back next week.

;D
Next week's not bad. The dragon can wait a week or two for his favorite shellfood. :o
I better get an order in! ;D

Say, with the skill system in KAP 5, how do you generate skill values for PC squires below the age of 21? Is that covered with K&L or is the option of playing a 15 year old squire no longer available?

There is a system in K&L for designing younger squires.

There is a system in K&L for designing younger squires.


Yea! That will make my players very happy.