Melee Weapon Skills

Something that has bugged me in roleplaying games almost as long as I have been playing them is that most of the actual skill of using a melee weapon is not tied to what you are holding in your hand, it is footwork, combat reflexes, reading opponent, targeting, defending, blocking with shield (in Pendragon at least) etc.

Having completely unrelated skills for different weapons is "unrealistic", but still having them all be the same leaves out choices and specialization. This topic has been much discussed here before, but since it was a while ago, it is a new topic.

This is my house rule for weapon skills:

Instead of having separate skills, use the following:
Choose a primary weapon skill, this works as normally (for that weapon).

All other melee weapon skills (which are not skills per se) are primary weapon skill -10 to start, showing that all martial prowess increases along with the primary skill, even if that skill is “untrained”.

You can train up your non-primary weapon skills using a winter phase point, or an experience point check gained using that particular weapon (or glory of course, but why would you?).

The first point spent changes your negative modifier to -5 for that particular weapon skill. The second point spent changes it to -2, the third point to -1 and spending a fourth point makes it your primary weapon skill. The next time you increase it, your former primary weapon skill will be at -1.

Javelin can be a melee weapon skill for this purpose. Lance is still a completely separate skill. Bow and Crossbow are connected to each other in the same manner.

I feel that doing things this way will make it much more interesting for the players, just like the real knights they can maintain a wide variety of weapons and they can quite quickly pick up the new weapons becoming available (hammers vs plates for example) and quickly become almost as efficient with them as with their primary weapon (in 1-3 years) while their primary skill will remain their bread and butter. They still have to spend some points and/or gain some experience though. Also, with some extra effort, they can change their fighting style to primarily use a different weapon. This just can't really be done in regular KAP after weapon skills pass 20, you are basically completely stuck with the weapon you chose earlier - the cost to get a secondary weapon up to effectiveness is too prohibitive.

If you feel that a knight should be able to pick up almost any weapon and fight with it - and that is something that keeps happening in your campaign, you can also change the first modifier to start at -5 instead of -10 for all weapons. I set it at -10 so it wouldn't be too far off original KAP, and that you would have to spend a little more effort on the secondary weapons you wanted to use - although I'm still debating with myself to set it at -5 to promote the PK's to use different weapons and tactics for a more fun game.

Something that has bugged me in roleplaying games almost as long as I have been playing them is that most of the actual skill of using a melee weapon is not tied to what you are holding in your hand, it is footwork, combat reflexes, reading opponent, targeting, defending, blocking with shield (in Pendragon at least) etc.


There is a lot to be said for your system, if that level of realism/authenticity feel is wanted.

You've inspired me to write something philosophical that I'll post someplace. Thanks!

Hi,
I also like it, I did something similar in my previous campaign by dumping all similar weapons (sword-like, one-hafted, double-handers) into groups and using those as skills.

fg,
Thijs

You've inspired me to write something philosophical that I'll post someplace. Thanks!



No problem :). I'd really like to see what comes out of that...

There is a lot to be said for your system, if that level of realism/authenticity feel is wanted.



Actually, there you are hitting it on the spot. You wouldn't believe it, but I absolutely hate RPG rules. It's because they are always inadequate and get in the way of the game. My feel is that I want any game I play to be as close to realism/authenticity/suspension of disbelief as possible, while still being simple, easy and highly playable. The rules must help the game and forward the characters. They have to be elegant and "right". The challenge is in balancing complexity with playability, and most games fail this. Either they are too easy/wrong which just gives you a detached feeling with nothing anchoring it anywhere close to realism/authenticity/suspension of disbelief (levelsystems for me) or they become too complex, flow over with options and break down under their own weight.

KAP is one of the best games to walk this line - it's superbly adapted and refined over many years. Greg (and others) have done an amazing job. It has colored all my roleplaying since the late 80s when i first found a boxed 1e, and I keep coming back to it.
However, nothing is ever perfect, and no one has infinite time to make it so. I can't help it but I'm constantly looking for elegant solutions to minor problems - which may not be problems, but still possible to do smoother or more realistic/authentic WITHOUT REALLY MAKING THEM ANY MORE COMPLEX OR LESS PLAYABLE, and here I am discussing it. Ideas should be shared, and it can only help our own games to do so. And quite possibly, if it gives Greg something positive or some inspiration it's all good, I owe him lots of that over the past 20 years or so :)

This looks interesting. I think I'd prefer 1/2 skill instead of -10 or -5. That way even a little skill would help with other weapons, and someone with Sword 30 would still be limited to 15 with everything else, rather than 20, making it a little less likely that PCs will concentrate on one weapon and rely on a high default.

I'd also keep lance out of the mix, since a lance charge is so unlike other melee attacks.

Something that has bugged me in roleplaying games almost as long as I have been playing them is that most of the actual skill of using a melee weapon is not tied to what you are holding in your hand, it is footwork, combat reflexes, reading opponent, targeting, defending, blocking with shield (in Pendragon at least) etc.

Having completely unrelated skills for different weapons is "unrealistic", but still having them all be the same leaves out choices and specialization. This topic has been much discussed here before, but since it was a while ago, it is a new topic.

We use a system similar to yours, based on similar views. We have Melee (including dagger), Grappling (including dagger), Bow (including crossbow), Thrown Weapons and Lance. Works like a charm without further possibilities of specialization. (I even think having 5 skills for combat seems a bit much, compared to one skill for hunting/survival/foraging/navigation or two skills for all what a doctor can do. But hey, it's a knight-game, so I'll manage. ;))

Noir, just what I have been using for most games :)

I like the inclusion of dagger in both melee and grapple.

You've inspired me to write something philosophical that I'll post someplace. Thanks!

No problem :). I'd really like to see what comes out of that...


Insight sharing always start at http://gspendragon.com/1whatsnew.html
So does this one.

Noir,

I like what you have there. I think in addition, although this might complicate things a little bit more, one could also specialize in one weapon within each group. So, you could have someone with a good amount of experience in the melee group who also specializes in dagger. this would give him extra dies of damage since he knows where to aim, what angle will produce the most devastating damage, etc.

You've inspired me to write something philosophical that I'll post someplace. Thanks!

No problem :). I'd really like to see what comes out of that...


Insight sharing always start at http://gspendragon.com/1whatsnew.html
So does this one.



In this case, more specifically here http://gspendragon.com/weaponskills.html (the direct link for posterity)

I like your thinking here Greg:



But a knights’ #1 duty is to fight. Combat is central, or at least half the game.

Specific weapon use is one of those ways to differentiate knights. By dividing the weapons into types, as is done in KAP, it creates differences. I chose that as more important than the realism. To have made it more “realistic,” by making skills of One-handed Weapon and Pole Weapons (one suggestion) would have reduced these differences. Now, if your guy is the knight with the mace, it marks him out.


Actually, this is exactly what I wanted to do with my house rule. It is what I wanted: The best of BOTH worlds, and I feel it works better than just having a "one-handed weapons skill" or completely separate skills with no interaction.
Now you can be that "knight with the mace", you can be that "awesome-knight-with-the-warflail-who-just-started-using-it-when-it-came-out" (yeah!). But at the same time, you get closer to "realism" (I wish we had a better word for what we do in RPGs) in that he can pick up other weapons, AND use that knighly sword at his side with a skill that tracks along with his primary martial prowess.

Anyway, he still has to CHOOSE one weapon and be specialized mostly in that, and to be really effective in others he has to put some effort into that (but not like its a completely new skill).

I'm not saying change Pendragon for everyone here. But it's a good option and it solves a few issues (at least for me).

In this case, more specifically here http://gspendragon.com/weaponskills.html (the direct link for posterity)



I like sending people to a page that will reveal other gems of the web sie. :)



I like your thinking here Greg:

Actually, this is exactly what I wanted to do with my house rule. It is what I wanted: The best of BOTH worlds, and I feel it works better than just having a "one-handed weapons skill" or completely separate skills with no interaction.
Now you can be that "knight with the mace", you can be that "awesome-knight-with-the-warflail-who-just-started-using-it-when-it-came-out" (yeah!). But at the same time, you get closer to "realism" (I wish we had a better word for what we do in RPGs) in that he can pick up other weapons, AND use that knighly sword at his side with a skill that tracks along with his primary martial prowess.

Anyway, he still has to CHOOSE one weapon and be specialized mostly in that, and to be really effective in others he has to put some effort into that (but not like its a completely new skill).

I'm not saying change Pendragon for everyone here. But it's a good option and it solves a few issues (at least for me).



And some others as well. Thank you.

I like sending people to a page that will reveal other gems of the web sie. :)



Greg is so full of Gems I bet he would fetch a hefty sum of libra at the Londonium jewish jeweler quarter :)

(Actually, historically - or pendragonally - speaking, was there such a thing?)

I like sending people to a page that will reveal other gems of the web sie. :)



Greg is so full of Gems I bet he would fetch a hefty sum of libra at the Londonium jewish jeweler quarter :)

(Actually, historically - or pendragonally - speaking, was there such a thing?)


Londinium might not be a large enough city. I think this might actually link to another thread and he would be found only at Byzantium or maybe in far off Cathay. ;)

I've used the following for similar reasons:

(1) Starting value for all weapons at 1/2 Dex or cultural base, whichever is higher.
(2) All weapons default at -5 from best weapon
(3) This 'default' does not raise a skill above 15

Thus you can learn quickly, but to be 'expert' in a weapon, you still have to use it or apply points directly to it.

Seemed to work ok.