I've recently acquired Pendragon 5th edition, the Great Pendragon Campaign, and a lot of additional old Pendragon material. (And I'm working to get more. Why? Because, as the rest of the post will clearly illustrate, I am insane.) And as I immersed myself in the GPC and oohed and ahhed at its scope and depth, the first thing I said to myself was--how can I make this thing bigger?

What can I say? I'm the kind of man who thinks that one elephant is good, and a lot of them is better. So I'm planning on starting my version in 415 with Constantin being named Pendragon, letting the characters experience the full rise and fall of the dynasty. (I'm also going to be fiddling with the setting to make it more my own. No offense meant, Greg.) Any suggestions on making up history tables for the players ancestors? Or suggestions in general? Including ones to lie down, and listen to soothing music?

So I'm planning on starting my version in 415 with Constantin being named Pendragon, letting the characters experience the full rise and fall of the dynasty. (I'm also going to be fiddling with the setting to make it more my own. No offense meant, Greg.) Any suggestions on making up history tables for the players ancestors? Or suggestions in general? Including ones to lie down, and listen to soothing music?


Interestingly, an author has sent me a nice draft of this kind of thing and we are working it to be a finished product. I hope he'll keep it private for now, though.

One fun thing to include, though: the invention of lances. by the PCs of course. Maybe the first stirrups in Britain.

--greg

I wait with bated breath.

I wait with bated breath.


Me too. :)

--g

Well, with that said--do you have a name for Vortigern's father? I'm leaning towards "Vitellius" myself, but I'm not married to it...

It is said that Vortigern is the son in law of Magnus Maximus. He is the son of Vitalis

http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artfam/genhouse.htm

It is said that Vortigern is the son in law of Magnus Maximus. He is the son of Vitalis

http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artfam/genhouse.htm



I don't see that in the genealogy. I see it postulates him a descendant of Claudius ii, but no Magnus there is there?

Also, the "Postulated" comment requires close attention. I am going to suggest that this is the author's postulate, and there is as much liklihood of it being agreed to by other experts as there is for them agreeing that Pendragon has legitimate genealogies.
That said, it is always fun to have even an unlikely source as a source. We just don't want to mistake it for history.

--Greg

Vortigern marrying Maximus's daughter *does* appear in at least one genealogy: the one recorded on a stone cross in Wales.

It's not on this weblink (instead, we that he married a descant of Magnus Flavius Maximus aka Macsen Guletig.
As said Merlin, it is recorded on a stone cross and it is also mentioned by Leslie Alcock in Arthur's Britain.

I was curious what tech level equipment wise would be in use in 415? I'd guess the Cymric-Britons / Romano-Britons would go to war much as the classical Roman army?

I was curious what tech level equipment wise would be in use in 415? I'd guess the Cymric-Britons / Romano-Britons would go to war much as the classical Roman army?


The issue isn't the tech level (there should be Roman stuff still lying around) but the discipline and training, and that makes ALL the difference. Imagine two groups if infantry with identical large round shields and spears facing a cavalry charge. Group A is a bunch of peasants. Group B is a unit of Spartans. Group A is a speedbump. Group B ... isn't.

I'm sure at some time during this period somebody spent a chunk of change outfitting a cohort in full Roman kit, marched them out against some Picts ... and watched his troops rout with the first clash.

Interestingly, an author has sent me a nice draft of this kind of thing and we are working it to be a finished product. I hope he'll keep it private for now, though.

One fun thing to include, though: the invention of lances. by the PCs of course. Maybe the first stirrups in Britain.

--greg


I did something like that once. I used Geoffry of Monmouth as the primary source and expanded the history. PCs started off as warriors, went into exile with Ambrosius, and came back with the latest in militarty technology the warhorse, stirrups and lance. One PC was a Roman Optio. It was interesting.

I still got some on my notes for that. If you want any of it let me know. It's not professional grade or anything, but it was enough to run a campaign with.

Interestingly, an author has sent me a nice draft of this kind of thing and we are working it to be a finished product. I hope he'll keep it private for now, though.

One fun thing to include, though: the invention of lances. by the PCs of course. Maybe the first stirrups in Britain.

--greg


I did something like that once. I used Geoffry of Monmouth as the primary source and expanded the history. PCs started off as warriors, went into exile with Ambrosius, and came back with the latest in militarty technology the warhorse, stirrups and lance. One PC was a Roman Optio. It was interesting.

I still got some on my notes for that. If you want any of it let me know. It's not professional grade or anything, but it was enough to run a campaign with.


I'd love to see them.

Interestingly, an author has sent me a nice draft of this kind of thing and we are working it to be a finished product. I hope he'll keep it private for now, though.

One fun thing to include, though: the invention of lances. by the PCs of course. Maybe the first stirrups in Britain.

--greg


I did something like that once. I used Geoffry of Monmouth as the primary source and expanded the history. PCs started off as warriors, went into exile with Ambrosius, and came back with the latest in militarty technology the warhorse, stirrups and lance. One PC was a Roman Optio. It was interesting.

I still got some on my notes for that. If you want any of it let me know. It's not professional grade or anything, but it was enough to run a campaign with.


I'd love to see them.

Okay, how do I send it, just email it?

Okay, how do I send it, just email it?


Yes. Send it to my usual email of greg@glorantha.com

Sorry to cast raise dead, but I've been looking at starting a campaign down these exact lines and any material that could be shared would be fantastic.
Anything I end up creating for the game, I'll be happy to share right back. (I already think I'm going to need to hack apart some of the normal maps to change place names for pre-Saxon Britain.)

If you have Saxons!, it has a timeline from 402, although it is pretty crude until 440s or so. Of course, that is when you get the more detailed Salisbury Timeline from Pendragon 5th edition, too.

Cheers, my old GM had a copy kicking about I think, if not I'll get it through drivethru.

Got myself bookmarks to some of the relevant sources, plugging through. I think I'm going to start my game with the player knights being part of the 2000 strong host lead by Constantine to retake Britain. I'll populate some of the host with the ancestors of lords and kings who show up later, who'll receive land during the invasion and the troubles that follow after. (This is from Monmouth, so not 100% sure of the exact date.)

(This is from Monmouth, so not 100% sure of the exact date.)


AD 415, according to Saxons!

Cheers. On second thought, might well start a year or two before that and have the players flee Britain amidst the chaos and unrest caused by the collapse of the Roman system, drawn to to the banner of Constantine in Brittany. It'll show Britain at it's very worst and give them something to remember when things get tough later, at least it won't be as bad as it was back in 413. :D

One of the things I like most about the GPC is how it builds up a very believable and interactive world with a remarkably small cast of NPC's. While starting in 410-415 AD will be a different experience, I've been thinking that it would be a good idea to have an analogue for each of the major players - even if their personalities are somewhat through to radically different, it's their role in holding up the story seems most important to me.

With that in mind, I've been going through the start of the GPC and the various sources like Monmouth, Bede and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles trying to pick out key players and pin them against their Uther period contemporaries.

If anyone has any suggestions or sources of information to draw upon, that'd be fantastic!

Here's my current list anyhow,

5TH CENTURY CONTEMPORARIES

King Uther Pendragon - King Constantine
Prince Madoc - Prince Constans (Only, not quite such a bad ass...)

King Canaan of Estregales - Controlled by the Demetae (His Grandfather is part of the Host)
King Lot of Lothian - Controlled by Picts (His Grandfather is part of the Host)
King Nanteleod of Escavalon - Controlled by the Demetae (His Grandfather is part of the Host)
King Nentres of Garloth - Controlled by Picts (His Grandfather is part of the Host)
King Uriens of Gorre - Controlled by Picts (His Grandfather is part of the Host)
King Pellinore of Gomeret - Controlled by the Demetae (King Pellam's Father is part of the Host)

Merlin - Blaise
Archbishop Dubricus - Archbishop Guethelin
Bishop Roger - Bishop Pelagius
Father Dewi - Saint Germanus
Earl Roderick - His Grandfather
Duke Ulfius - His Grandfather
Duke Gorlois - Duke Vortigern
Centurion King - Centurion King

Sir Brastias' Evil Twin - A pict bodyguard.
Sir Brastias - Count Eldol's Father (Duke of Gloucester/Glevum?)
Sir Amig the Castellan -
Sir Lycus the Simple -
Sir Bar the Bear-
Sir Leo the Good -
Sir Elad the Elder -
Sir Jaradan the Sword -

Eligible ladies are few and far between, as constant rapine and pillage causes havoc!

On a side note, I think it's going to be interesting to see how the lack of stirrups and mounted combat is going to play out for the knights in my group!

I've been thinking back on my time as a player and it really surprised me to think of the number of times I took that +5 for granted!

I've taken stuff off so that my players can actually look at this forum without having to worry about spoilers. I'll possibly put stuff back up once it's happened.

It is said that Vortigern is the son in law of Magnus Maximus. He is the son of Vitalis I have this in my genealogy line Greg that he did marry one of Maximus's daughters but which one is what were trying to find out no one seems to have that answer why you don't see it its just speculation at this point. The experts are unsure, and its hard to say ya or nay.

On a side note, I think it's going to be interesting to see how the lack of stirrups and mounted combat is going to play out for the knights in my group!
I've been thinking back on my time as a player and it really surprised me to think of the number of times I took that +5 for granted!

Lack of stirrups would affect the lance charge
but not mounted combat
men had been fighting effectively from horseback for centuries

Ah, fair enough. Well it's only been a year or two in game, so it'll be easy enough for me to fix.

In game, I'd nodded to the fact that people had been fighting from horse since way back when anyway, but that it required more/different training and specially shaped saddles.

As far as I understood it, until the advent of stirrups, most people who fought from horse back did so with javelins, bows and light spears.
I also didn't think that you could effectively use a shield and fight from horse back without stirrups, since you'd need a hand for the reins.

Either way, I'd advanced the date for when stirrups would be introduced a bit and the players knights are the ones importing the very first pair/set into the country.