One of my new player knights has a very high honour passion (18).

How might that actually manifest itself?

The rules seem to suggest that one example might be that they take offence easily.

However what things might inspire him to use that passion?

Likewise what things could I, as GM, use "against" his passion for story purposes?

A high Honour passion implies the noble person has high self-esteem and, more importantly, is willing to defend that self-esteem when people (seemingly) question his or her values.

All you really need to do as a GM is put into question those things that this person values about themself and those things they really, deep-down, care about. The player is then well within their right to call for a passion roll when you honestly test those same values.

Unlike the other universal passions, Honour is the most flexibly defined passion and can mean many things; the GM has to sit down with the players before beginning play with this character to discuss what this passion means to that player's character. Thereafter, can the GM responsibly prepare to test that passion (and, in this game, its a veritibly requirement for all players to have their Honour questioned).

It is also a two way street. Someone with a high Honor might be very careful how he treats other, out of respect for thier honor, and also so as not to dishonor himself.

An very honorable character would probably set high standards for himself.

One of my new player knights has a very high honour passion (18).
How might that actually manifest itself?


Honor is your respect and pride in your good name, family and honesty.



The rules seem to suggest that one example might be that they take offence easily.


Hm, will you help me here andpoint out the source for that?




However what things might inspire him to use that passion?



Whenever something occurs to offend his family, honesty or good name he should make an Honor Roll.
Success = he will defend his honor
Failure = he will not, and his Honor diminishes a point

Be careful not to confuse Honor and Pride.



Likewise what things could I, as GM, use "against" his passion for story purposes?


His passion can be challenged directly by insulting him.
He can volunteer anytime that he and the GM agree his Passion is applicable.

Firstly thanks for all the responses.



Unlike the other universal passions, Honour is the most flexibly defined passion and can mean many things; the GM has to sit down with the players before beginning play with this character to discuss what this passion means to that player's character. Thereafter, can the GM responsibly prepare to test that passion (and, in this game, its a veritibly requirement for all players to have their Honour questioned).


Yes it's that flexibility that makes it somewhat hard for me to get a grip on how to use the Honour passion and how to allow it to be used.

The idea of a discussion is good. The next session will be my 2nd with this group of players so I think it very reasonable to discuss my thoughts on their characters and to allow trains, passions and skills to be played around with somewhat.



It is also a two way street. Someone with a high Honor might be very careful how he treats other, out of respect for thier honor, and also so as not to dishonor himself.


A very good point!





The rules seem to suggest that one example might be that they take offence easily.


Hm, will you help me here andpoint out the source for that?



p76: "Someone with an extremely high honour may be offended by anything that anyone says that he does not like."



Whenever something occurs to offend his family, honesty or good name he should make an Honor Roll.
Success = he will defend his honor
Failure = he will not, and his Honor diminishes a point

Be careful not to confuse Honor and Pride.


I'll probably only apply those rules to someone with an honour of 16 or over, unless the insult is so grievous that to choose not to defend their own honour would mean I'll knock a point down.

Could you possibly give a quick example of an insult to pride but not honour?

I guess in the end it's surprising that I've never had to face dealing with the honour passion before.

Yes it's that flexibility that makes it somewhat hard for me to get a grip on how to use the Honour passion and how to allow it to be used.
The idea of a discussion is good. The next session will be my 2nd with this group of players so I think it very reasonable to discuss my thoughts on their characters and to allow trains, passions and skills to be played around with somewhat.


Absolutely.
The WORST thing to do is explain it all at once, especially one the firs session.
Heck, discuss each passion and what it means IN YOUR CAMPAIGN with the players, and write it down.





Hm, will you help me here and point out the source for that?


p76: "Someone with an extremely high honour may be offended by anything that anyone says that he does not like."


Thank you. Can't be more clear than that. And Misleading.
Discussions like this have helped me to hone these definitions, I see!





Whenever something occurs to offend his family, honesty or good name he should make an Honor Roll.
Success = he will defend his honor
Failure = he will not, and his Honor diminishes a point

Be careful not to confuse Honor and Pride.


I'll probably only apply those rules to someone with an honour of 16 or over, unless the insult is so grievous that to choose not to defend their own honour would mean I'll knock a point down.


Absolutely!
The insult or challenge must be something serious, relating to those points I listed.



Could you possibly give a quick example of an insult to pride but not honour?


A stranger knight says...

...about your flower garden for your Lover, "Look, it is wilting, and that statue in there is silly, and anyone who uses that at some sort of dedication obviously knows nothing of love, or of gardening."

..."His sister is not pretty, dull of mind, and does not bathe."

..."That family has strange roots, and uses its court to seize lands from its peasants."

But it might be hitting Honor to say:

"You are stupid, this garden is pathetic and shows your real knighthood is limp."
Successful Honor Roll=Challenge him to a dual of jousting to defend yourself. Just fighting the three rounds is sufficient to restore honor, even if you lose every time.
But a high passion of Honor might require more of a challenge--first blood?
or
"I had sex with his sister,"
Much worse! Challenge to knockdown, or to surrender
or
"they are a demon family,"
Challenge required? Oh, maybe,... Rash/Patient? etc.
(Oh, and that bit about exploiting the manorial courts? Well, everyone does that as a matter of course.)



I guess in the end it's surprising that I've never had to face dealing with the honour passion before.


It is not a thing that we speak of today, although it is 100% real among us.
The old bonds that determined personal and family honor are weak in modern times, but not gone.
If someone has screwed me on purpose, I won't trust him again--he's lost his honor with me. He dishonored himself. It's trust.
If everyone distrusts a knight, then his Honor is quite low, chipped away by his petty actions.
A high Honor means he can be trusted to keep his oaths and do what he says (good or bad!) and everyone knows it. It means that he has the backing of his family, a good family.

So am i off base or am I on to use the following example....

Two knights go hunting. One Kills 2 animals and one does not. At dinner that night in front of the court the knight with more kills is drunkenly boastful and retells the tale simply stating that he hunted better than the other knight. Since it is a TRUTH is it just a pride check? Would the drunken boastful knight actually have to say .. man you suck at hunting dude, to have an honor roll? am I getting this right? not sure. ???

In itself that statement would not provoke an honour roll.

If the other knight had a 16+ honour score, *and* had a track record of invoking honour any time anyone said they did something better than him, then it would be an honour roll. But barring BOTH of those two conditions, it wouldn't be.

If you want to provoke someone else's honour, you have to do more than just the kind of stuff that knights in their cups say to each other all the time.

Even "man, you suck at hunting" probably isn't enough - add, "and you bring shame to your family, you are such a laughing stock I am ashamed to drink at the same table as one as low as you."

ok

It is also a two way street. Someone with a high Honor might be very careful how he treats other, out of respect for thier honor, and also so as not to dishonor himself.


A very good point! [/quote]

And one taught to me by a player knight.

The group were questing after an enchanted sword, that was being guarded by a Faerie Knight. It was the third attempt at the quest, and after the Farie had bested two of the knights in fair combat, some players got frustrated and ganged up on the Faerie Knight-with disastrous results.

By the time the Farie had defeated the three, he was wounded and obviously a easy target for the remaining PC knight, who was fresh, and also the toughest fighter in the group.

To everyone's surprise, the Knight refused to face the Faerie Knight, stating that the Faerie knight had fought chivalrously with valor and skill, and that it would be wrong to cheat him of his victory through sheer force of numbers.

Seemed like a case of Honor to me.

It is also a two way street. Someone with a high Honor might be very careful how he treats other, out of respect for thier honor, and also so as not to dishonor himself.


A very good point!

And one taught to me by a player knight.

The group were questing after an enchanted sword, that was being guarded by a Faerie Knight. It was the third attempt at the quest, and after the Farie had bested two of the knights in fair combat, some players got frustrated and ganged up on the Faerie Knight-with disastrous results.

By the time the Farie had defeated the three, he was wounded and obviously a easy target for the remaining PC knight, who was fresh, and also the toughest fighter in the group.

To everyone's surprise, the Knight refused to face the Faerie Knight, stating that the Faerie knight had fought chivalrously with valor and skill, and that it would be wrong to cheat him of his victory through sheer force of numbers.

Seemed like a case of Honor to me.


[/quote]

Hopefully he did recieve his honor check! ;D

One interesting scenario for a GM to throw at his players would be to test the PC's commitment to defending the honor of a family member he didn't like or approve of but could still be expected to defend. For example, perhaps the knight's father fled from battle, or was late to muster for a war, or dishonored a woman. If the PC disagreed with his father's actions, might he not still defend his father's honor if someone else were to criticize him in his hearing? It borders on Love (Family), too, but that's okay.

What would happen if the person saying the offending remark were the knight's friend? overlord? It could create some fun drama and help to balance the upside of the passion.

[quote author=Palomydes the Saracen link=topic=523.msg4192#msg4192

Hopefully he did recieve his honor check! ;D
[/quote]

Yup. Also, he avoided killing his own brother. Not that he knew that.

Years earlier, that player had had a child kidnapped by faeries, and the knight died searching for his eldest son. The "faerie" knight in the adventure was in fact the missing son, who was mortal, but who had been raised in faerie.

So it was a case of honor truly being it's own reward.