We just finished a year where Sir Aelfric, banneret knight, died (he fell off a cliff - don't ask!). He leaves behind a wife and four children. The oldest son is 8 years old. What does the Liege Lord (a baron) do? He is down a knight, and needs a leader for the other five knights that Sir Aelfric led. Does he appoint one of Aelfric's household knights as a temporary caretaker? Does he marry off the widow to someone, who then gets to be a banneret for 13 years until the son comes into his majority? Does he do nothing?

He most likely appoints another knight (not one of the estate's househould knights) as the heir's guardian. That guardian becomes the steward of the estate until the heir is of rightful age, and makes all the decisions regarding the running of the estates, welfare of the wife, and disposition of the knights, just as if he were lord of the estate.

It was not unknown for such knights to bleed the estate dry, or live the life of reilly, while waiting for the heir to grow up. But Pendragon knights would not do that, surely....

Since this is a sizeable estate (5 knights1), there would likely be some jockeying at court over who gets to be the steward of the estate. It's a perfect opportunity for other player knights to vie with each other and with npcs to win the right. How the favour is won will depend: if it's an early period, it probably involves lots of political manoevring and currying favour. It it's a later period, it could be a tournament. In any period, it could be a reward for doing something heroic and beneficial for the overlord.

Also note: the wife's family could have a reasonable claim to have one of their members appointed guardian. It certainly is far from guaranteed, but they have a stronger claim than any random knight.

The liege could also do nothing. If the wife is capable of handling the household, then all that needs to be done is to wait until the heir matures. That is essentially what Countess Ellen does (or tries to do) during the Anarchy phase in the GPC.

If she can get the vassal knight to swear fealty to her/and or to the heir, it might be enough to keep the liege happy.

Note that Countess Ellen has no liege lord. It's a lot harder for a woman who answers to someone to keep the manor under her control.

A one-time widow is her lord's property and the regency is likely to be a prize. A double-widow, by contrast, can probably hold the regency herself and raise a household knight from the family esquires.

The liege could also do nothing.


Very, very unlikely.



If the wife is capable of handling the household, then all that needs to be done is to wait until the heir matures. That is essentially what Countess Ellen does (or tries to do) during the Anarchy phase in the GPC.


But she has no overlord to take control.




If she can get the vassal knight to swear fealty to her/and or to the heir, it might be enough to keep the liege happy.



Custom and law both say no.
He makes extra money from holding a manor and hiring a sargeant to fill his ranks (and no, your knight can't do that.)

A one-time widow is her lord's property and the regency is likely to be a prize. A double-widow, by contrast, can probably hold the regency herself and raise a household knight from the family esquires.


Not by law or by custom.
The liege of the manor takes it back and arranges to raise the heir in his household.
She is only a prize if she is the heiress. As a widow, she holds 1/3 of her former husband's estate until she dies, when it reverts to the rightful owner (her son, if she has one).
Otherwise, she simply does not count in the dealings at all.
If she has been married three times, then she can no longer be compelled to marry.

Not by law or by custom.
The liege of the manor takes it back and arranges to raise the heir in his household.
She is only a prize if she is the heiress. As a widow, she holds 1/3 of her former husband's estate until she dies, when it reverts to the rightful owner (her son, if she has one).
Otherwise, she simply does not count in the dealings at all.
If she has been married three times, then she can no longer be compelled to marry.


Ah. The Pendragon rules say "two times," is this an error?
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I just noticed, however, that your banneretcy is six knights (5 household plus Sir Aelfric) in a barony. The widow is likely to (informally) have quite a bit of say if she makes a (political) fight over it; she has two household knights of her own (the widow's third) and whatever influence she personally has over the other four; her son is technically their liege lord. Check those traits and her Intrigue skill!

I just noticed, however, that your banneretcy is six knights (5 household plus Sir Aelfric) in a barony.


Not so. The term baron (and barony) is subject to a lot of confusion.
The term baron, as used in previous editions of Pendragon (not sure about the current one) is a lord who holds a certain minimum amount of land, and has been conferred the title of baron by a king.
Just as having three vassals does not make you a bannerette (you need to then get given the title), having whatever minimum number of knights does not make you a baron, until you are given the title - and if your lord is not a king, it's unlikely to ever happen.
It's possible for a bannerrette, or even a lowly vassal knight, to acquire as many manors as any baron, or even an earl (well, very slightly possible) - but until they are awarded the title, they are still a humble vassal knight or bannerette.

Historically, the term baron had several separate meanings. For instance, it could be used to refer to any nobleman who had a noble lord (the vassal knights under Earl Rodrick could be referred to as his barons), or more likely, the nobles who were direct vassals of the king, whether they had land or not, some of whom might not even hold land. And a third definition would be "The Great Barons" - the great lords, like earls and dukes, who make up the major power of a kingdom. But that doesn't matter here- the definition above is the one used in pendragon, I believe.

What I meant was, usually, a barony doesn't have a hell of a lot of knights. So if a banneret of six knights serves under a baron who has, say, 15 to 25 knights, his widow can have a hell of a lot of say in what happens in the barony just by virtue of having six knights. Almost certainly, that's the largest estate in the barony.

(A baron has "at least 15 knights" according to Pendragon.)

What I meant was, usually, a barony doesn't have a hell of a lot of knights. So if a banneret of six knights serves under a baron who has, say, 15 to 25 knights, his widow can have a hell of a lot of say in what happens in the barony just by virtue of having six knights. Almost certainly, that's the largest estate in the barony.

(A baron has "at least 15 knights" according to Pendragon.)


That was my thinking as well. If a bannerette leads a major power faction in a barony (or county) then the noble is probably going to keep that in mind when making his decisions about the lands and heir.

If I were the liege lord, I'd probably pick one of the older knights of the family to be Steward-the one notable for high Loyalty (Lord) and possibly Love (Family).

If I were the liege lord, I'd foster the heirs in my household, run the lands myself (appointing one or more non-knightly supervisors with high Stewardship scores) and use the money to fund household knights for my garrison.

Then when the heir achieves their majority I'd know exactly how valuable the estate was and could ensure that a suitable number of knightly livings were written into the new feudal contract.

Regards
Luke

Presumably the liege lord's demesne is already as large as he can practically manage.

Wow, thanks for all the responses. Lots of things to think about. Sir Aelfric was a powerhouse knight with over 6000 Glory, with a Loyalty (liege) of 18. The baron has 20 knights under his command, so Sir Aelfric's force was a sizable chunk of his firepower. The baron would use Aelfric as his travelling striking force, diplomatic envoy, and troubleshooter.

I have a few days before I make a decision

She is only a prize if she is the heiress. As a widow, she holds 1/3 of her former husband's estate until she dies, when it reverts to the rightful owner (her son, if she has one).

Here's something I've never been clear on:

If the mother hasn't passed away when the son inherits, that would make for a poor knight if 1/3 is taken by the mother. What happens then?

Does the mother counts as "the wife's portion" until the knight marries? (I guess she can function as the steward of the manor, right?) What happens to the mother when the knight gets married? Nunery? Forced marriage (what mother would take that from her son, hah!)? Does the knight's feudal obligation to his lord change (he no longer has to provide an extra knight, or something, if its a 2 KV estate)?

Here's something I've never been clear on:

If the mother hasn't passed away when the son inherits, that would make for a poor knight if 1/3 is taken by the mother. What happens then?


You said it. He is a poor knight.



Does the mother counts as "the wife's portion" until the knight marries?


No.
She gets her third.



(I guess she can function as the steward of the manor, right?)


If she want to, sure. Although she might as well just keep her £2 and retire
And she would thus also deserve the £1 for the seward's job.



What happens to the mother when the knight gets married?



She cries at the wedding and looks forward to grandchildren.



Nunnery?



This was surely done often enough, so it is an option.
Lose some Love Family passion, and she will turn her 1/3 over the nunnery, who will hold it until she dies.



Forced marriage (what mother would take that from her son, hah!)?


If the widow remarries she still keeps the 1/3. It is hers until death.



Does the knight's feudal obligation to his lord change (he no longer has to provide an extra knight, or something, if its a 2 KV estate)?


No, it does not change at all.

And the moral of the story? If you only have one manor, DON'T DIE. At least until your wife dies too.

Or use the options in the Book of the Manor to enhance the value of your estate enough to ensure that Mum's widow's portion doesn't pauper you.

And the moral of the story? If you only have one manor, DON'T DIE. At least until your wife dies too.

Or sleep around a lot. Back in my KAP1 days, one of the knights had a hard time getting landed and his family line continued only because he had a high lustful trait and would regualry bed down with serving wenches, villagers and kept a mistress. Those illegitimate sons kept the family line going long enough until Phase 3, when someone finally got a manor.

Well, even in that scenario, dying before your wife dies leaves your son (temporarily) with only 2/3rds of the one manor it took the family three phases to obtain!

What I meant was, usually, a barony doesn't have a hell of a lot of knights. So if a banneret of six knights serves under a baron who has, say, 15 to 25 knights, his widow can have a hell of a lot of say in what happens in the barony just by virtue of having six knights. Almost certainly, that's the largest estate in the barony.

(A baron has "at least 15 knights" according to Pendragon.)


if the lord states that he has taken back the holdings and that the knights are to obey him i doubt they will stand with the lady in question. You are assuming that these six knights are all extraordinary in their devotion to her. I doubt that. The Baron is still their LORD, he is ABOVE the lady, and if she doesnt bow to the Barons wishes then she is a traitor and would be dealt with harshley no doubt. There are always squires that can be knighted to take the place of rebellious knights even though its probably not the option the Baron prefers. Im sure it would be a cold day in hell when any Baron worth his salt gets bullied by a lady that is supposed to be under his rule. Not a very inspiring Baron.kind of a weakling. It would also cost the lady a lot to fight the Lord..remember ..she has 6 knights( MAYBE), And the lord has 9. What has she to gain when she tears the realm apart? If anyone went to war i would make a neighboring county take advantage and simply annex the whole barony.
Also, depending on what period it is, the Baron could simply petition HIS fuedal lord for help in quelling her rebellion or take the extra money he has and hire a small army of seargants to destroy her. All are viable options.

If I were the liege lord, I'd foster the heirs in my household, run the lands myself (appointing one or more non-knightly supervisors with high Stewardship scores) and use the money to fund household knights for my garrison.

Then when the heir achieves their majority I'd know exactly how valuable the estate was and could ensure that a suitable number of knightly livings were written into the new feudal contract.

Regards
Luke


This is EXACTLY what most lords would do. Its right on.

Palomides,

I don't see the situation of the lady with 12 knights being so much rebellion as exerting influence. Since the manor(s) are the lifeblood of the family, the knights will be understandably concerned as to who will be running them. I could see the family working to convince the Earl to appoint one of thier own to rule the lands until the child reaches majority.

It would also seem to be a wise move on the Liege Lord's part as well. If he assigns someone else, and they abuse the position, bleed the estates dry, and so on, it will eventually lead to strife, and could reduce the loyalty of that prominent family.

Sure, in theory the Liege Lord commands and the knights obey or or punished for disobedience and/or treason. In reality, a lot of Liege Lords were overthrown and replaced as well. Some of my sources of feudal society mention that a hereditary nobility didn't actually arise until fairly late in the middle ages. Anyone with wealth and power usually ended up being killed off because they were such great
targets.

If I were the liege lord, I'd foster the heirs in my household, run the lands myself (appointing one or more non-knightly supervisors with high Stewardship scores) and use the money to fund household knights for my garrison.

Then when the heir achieves their majority I'd know exactly how valuable the estate was and could ensure that a suitable number of knightly livings were written into the new feudal contract.

Regards
Luke


This would only happen if there was no suitable (extended) male family members to run the estate - liege lords can't just step in and take the family rights away (unless this was a gift, of course). A rare occurance.

Of course, that all assumes the liege lord is a good guy, by the day's standards ...

Sir Cynric, Aelfric's brother, a landed (one manor) knight with about 4000 Glory has been made steward, mostly for plot purposes. I very much enjoyed the discussion and advice given