Ok, my players are turning into accounting knights...
(they want to be able to hire armies themselves so it's for a noble purpose).
So I calculated (to check the comments of my players) the odds/upbring of all the BoM investments.

Conclusions:
Coneygarth, Apiary and Dovecote are great investments (you have earned back your initial expenses after 3-5 years or already two if you get good harvests).All others take 10-20 years before they turn profitable. The Diary and Winery take 30 years, the Scriptorium 40 years, the olive grove 93 years, the Ferry will (on average) never become profitable and you will make a loss on a non-crooked gambling house.
(Interesting note: A 530+ horse herd can be earned back in 4 years if you get good harvests and average rolls, and even two if you roll well).

So.. my players are now bugging me to get more investments like the Coneygarth, Apiary and Dovecote (how many of those can you put on your land)? Also the fish pond is equal to an apiary but costs 5L instead of 2L and doesnt give a -1 Fate bonus... so what's up with that fish pond? And they sniff at the other investment (since they are so crappy compared to Coneygarth, Apiary and Dovecote).

How many years should it take for an investment to earn back the initial expense? 10 years, 20 years?
These modern days you should be happy with a 5% interest on your bank account, so 20 years sounds ok to me?
But of course rich people have access to better investments, so should the more expensive BoM investments also earn better interest?

Did other people bump into this?

And of course question to Greg, how did you come up with the cost/income/maintenance for those investments?

fg,
Thijs

My players all created apiaries first, as it's easily the best of the cheap builds. They have then gone on to build Coneygrath's and Sheep Herds for the most part although one or two of them have sunk some money into defensive works. I did think this was a slight shame because it's a bit predictable; I know they would go for exactly the same builds if we started again, however, to a certain extent this is unavoidable. There will always be 1 or 2 items that stand out as the first best option. I have tweaked some of the values for my own campaign but I'm still pretty much following the direction set by Greg.

Which values do you use?

fg,
Thijs

I added skill checks or rolls to a few items to make them more desirable, and changed a few of the canon Investments a bit (for example I have Dovecote giving an income of 1-2 rather than the straight 2 which Greg has).

http://www.kap5.net/Other/The-Other-Side/10596938_LQamC#785596850_GzDCU-A-LB

Sometimes though, there's more to it than just the numbers. For example, I've told my player's that building more than one apiary will have no additional affect, even though greg says multiple builds are fine. My reasoning is that a small manor, once adequately serviced by bees, cannot gain further from having more bees. Other structures can be duplicated and provide additional income depending upon their nature, such as planting more than one type of orchard. This then leads into other choices about how much land the knight has, and how much can be turned over to foodstuffs etc without impinging on the main crop, but I'm fine with that as it makes for more player choice.

Ok, my players are turning into accounting knights...


How unfortunate.
Each of them doing women or esquire work!
Tch tch. :D



So.. my players are now bugging me to get more investments like the Coneygarth, Apiary and Dovecote


Do they mean "more resources That have guaranteed income" by this?
I know of none at this scale, for this kind of game.



(how many of those can you put on your land)?


Officially, one.
or, GM fiat of course. For instance,
I did say that I would allow a knight to have multiples of these, but only by fiat, as a one-time thing. That is, I'd let one knight build multiple apiaries, but no one else. If my player protest my answer is, "Because only he has the optional destiny to become Knight of the Bee." Or the (ha ha) Knight of the Dove or (har har har) Knight of the Hare.
What, you want to have six bowers? Let's work on it...
But the rule is: one per manor.



Also the fish pond is equal to an apiary but costs 5L instead of 2L and doesnt give a -1 Fate bonus... so what's up with that fish pond?

Naturally things have different investment and recovery values.
If you want to make everything linear, for the same values, go for it. What do you need colorful rules for?



And they sniff at the other investment (since they are so crappy compared to Coneygarth, Apiary and Dovecote).


Sniff away.
They can wait for my unpublished economics system game called Trash Chivalry, where your cast-off family esquires devolve into the merchant class who are familiar with water driven looms and monetary conversion rates.

It is too bad they are all playing the same game.
If one of them was thinking ahead, he'd be making structures that reinforce the skills and passions that he has. His son, when he inherits, will annually qualify for a plethora of checks each year to help him progress (not surprisingly in much the same manner as his dear old dad).

For my game, and I'll post these rules somewhere other than here, if everyone wants to play the money game, I share new aspects of the game with them that can be used. For instance:
Relief. This is a fee for an heir to take his inheritance into his own hands. See, when a manor holder dies the land is disseized, "seized back" by the liege who holds it until the relief is paid.
During this time the land can be reassessed in value, so that the proper taxes and fees are collected.
Then the heir can pay the relief, which by the end of the 12th century had been standardized to be equal to one year of income
At the new assessed value.
Where does your heir get this money?
"Not my problem," says the lord and tradition. "I'll take good care of your lands."

More fun, however is this one:
The wives actually handle the stewardship.
Each of your players should play the wife of someone else's knight.
Then let the two of them decide where the money is to be spent.



But of course rich people have access to better investments, so should the more expensive BoM investments also earn better interest?


No.



And of course question to Greg, how did you come up with the cost/income/maintenance for those investments?


I am an experienced, professional game designer with extensive self-taught knowledge of the period.
I am an entertainer, willing subject to this Muse, applying my intense devotion to the subject and steel dedication to the Great King and his gloriously doomed moment of perfection, to entertain people who I do not know.

Also the fish pond is equal to an apiary but costs 5L instead of 2L and doesnt give a -1 Fate bonus... so what's up with that fish pond?


Apiaries can burn, sheep herds can be stolen, but fish ponds take preparation and effort to destroy -- especially if they're next to the manor as part of its moat/rampart system. So they are a more *robust* investment in case of raids.

I am an experienced, professional game designer with extensive self-taught knowledge of the period.
I am an entertainer, willing subject to this Muse, applying my intense devotion to the subject and steel dedication to the Great King and his gloriously doomed moment of perfection, to entertain people who I do not know.



Now that's what I call a critical in Orate :)

Also the fish pond is equal to an apiary but costs 5L instead of 2L and doesnt give a -1 Fate bonus... so what's up with that fish pond?


Apiaries can burn, sheep herds can be stolen, but fish ponds take preparation and effort to destroy -- especially if they're next to the manor as part of its moat/rampart system. So they are a more *robust* investment in case of raids.


I agree, but it's not captured in the rules [and my players can be major rules-lawyers.]
But in their defense, last session one sacrifices himself to safe his cousin from a fellow player, the other deceived his earl to get his horses bred with the Earls Destriers and the other ignored all plunder in order to burn villages to the ground... (AARGghH)

Can't wait for "Trash Chivalry" Greg.

Man, this new publishing deal has really got you going. ;D

If one of them was thinking ahead, he'd be making structures that reinforce the skills and passions that he has. His son, when he inherits, will annually qualify for a plethora of checks each year to help him progress (not surprisingly in much the same manner as his dear old dad).


Exactly! Which is why my PK's very first investment was a Jousting Field, inviting family, friends, and their squires to regular practices with it. At the practices we also work on unit maneuvers, discuss uses of the terrain between us and the Saxons/Silchester, etc.

The surviving neighbors have decided that being invited to events that get them annual skill checks too is worth more than they'd get by raiding someone who has lots of friends who all get annual Lance and Battle checks. And that gives my PK far better security than money for a hireling ever would.

Some 'merchanting" is unavoidable. It goes with the territory. Once you introduce a supplement with lots of new things to buy, the PCs will want to increase their income so that they can buy some of those neat things.

Even those who spurn money making and wish to be bold and adventurous need wealth so that they can buy the latest armor, horses, or pay ransom.

And those knights who start the game with 20-40 libra in coin from the luck table certainly arn't going to spend it all in one year to live as Spectacular Knights.

THe hard bit is preventing the players from going overboard.

The hard bit is preventing the players from going overboard.


Yes of course.
I hope it was apparent I was teasing Thjis about working the system.

And, the desire to make money is why I am SOOOO looking forward to when I have the graft system finished. :D

I hope it was apparent I was teasing Thjis about working the system.

Why do native english-speakers keep spelling my name like 'Thjis' instead of 'Thijs' :)
There is no 'ij'-sound in english, so should I spell it 'Thys'?



And, the desire to make money is why I am SOOOO looking forward to when I have the graft system finished.

Looking forward too...
[One of my players pulled a trick on me, which might mean he'd gain several thousand librum, see another thread... so I need some drain..]

fg,
Thijs

And, the desire to make money is why I am SOOOO looking forward to when I have the graft system finished. :D


You're serious about that?! :o

I thought you were joking.

It kind of reminds me of playing a noble in Flashing Blades (Swashbuckling in 17th Century France). Most the nobles have major income difficulties. They have land, but no where near the amount of money needed to get by. So all the nobles are scrambling around for ways to get money without looking like they are trying to get money.

It is rather difficult to run a shipping business and investment firm without looking like you are doing any work.

And, the desire to make money is why I am SOOOO looking forward to when I have the graft system finished. :D

You're serious about that?! :o
I thought you were joking.


I am serious. It is an important part of the Book of the Baron. See separate quote



It kind of reminds me of playing a noble in Flashing Blades (Swashbuckling in 17th Century France). Most the nobles have major income difficulties. They have land, but no where near the amount of money needed to get by. So all the nobles are scrambling around for ways to get money without looking like they are trying to get money.


That will be the situation for knights in the Twilight Period.

This is an excerpt from The KAP Book of the Baron

Graft

Corruption is the enemy of virtue

KAP is a game of choices, and the conflict between practicality (graft) and idealism (virtue) is part of the moral battleground between chivalry and vice. “Those men are corrupt” versus “Those guys are goody-goody saps.”
Pendragon does not require that you play a good knight, just know that consequences may occur. These options provide NPC motivation and story opportunity.
Good Arthurian knights do not steal. Graft, however, is accepted by custom, up to a point—it is difficult to tell where the line ends between a normal or excessive self-payment. But though the line may be hard to see, people have a sense of what is “too much.” Nonetheless, the system is abused by many, and exploited ruthlessly by some. but the amount stolen provides a moral scale that ranges from the customary (acceptable though unspoken) pinch off the top on down through scales of greed to large-scale embezzlement, on down to downright theft.
Graft is available only to administrators of large bodies of income. Just about every source of income herein is susceptible to graft, and so noted. Graft is an easy source of income and one that proposes interesting choices for men of power and position.
Here are guidelines on how to handle Graft, so everyone can have an idea of the consequences. Notes are included on how to steal, the consequences, and what is gained and lost.
The game mechanics are optional and to provide a rough idea of the percentage chances of something occurring, but don’t let die rolling get in the way of a good story. Do not take these numbers as hard numbers, either. If a player constantly takes £19, it can still trigger the immoral response, and judicial action.

================================================== ======
Please be patient and wait for the book before asking me for more.
Thank you.

Please be patient and wait for the book before asking me for more.


Such a teaser and then asking to be patient... arghh
:)

fg,
Thys

Ok, given that some other people ran into the same predictable manor investments, I came up with a modified table (which garbled here)... (some prices changed and some new items added):

Investment Cost Maint. Upbring Notes
Apiary 3* 1D2 1 [Energetic], -1 Fate
Astrologer* 10 1D6 1D4
Brewery* 20 1D6+3 6
Brewery, Ex* 30 2D6+3 9 Requires Brewery
Carpenter shop* 16 2D3 2 Requires Logging Station
Coneygarth 6 1D3+1 1 [Cowardly],[Lustfull]
Diary 10* 1D6 3
Dovecote 5 2 1 [Love(Family)]
Ferry 2* 1D3-1 1
Fish Pond 3* 1D2 1 [Prudent]
Gambling House 20 2D6 5 [Gaming], [[Selfish]],[[Deceitful]]
Herb Garden* 3 1D3 1D2 [Chirurtgy]
Horse Herd (<530)80 4D6 2D6+3 [Horsemanship]
Horse Herd (530+)40 D6+6 2D6+3 [Horsemanship]
Inn* 20 3D6 10 [Hospitaily]
Jeweller 15* 1D3+2 1D3+1 [Proud]
Logging (once) 1 1D3+3* - 16-20 never possible to log again*
Logging Station* 12 1D3 1
Lumber Mill* 20 3D3 3 Requires Carpenter Shop
Olive Grove 15 3D6 8 0 Upbring for 3 years
Orchard 5* 1D3+1 1 0 Upbring for 4 years, 1D2 for 2 years
Salt Evaporator 10 1D3 1
Scriptorium 5* 1D4+1 3 [Read (Latin)]
Sheep Herd 5 1D4 2
Vineyard 12 1D6 2 0 Upbring for 3 years
Winery 25* 1D6+2 1D4+2 [Indulgent] Upbring can be paid in grapes
Winery, Fine* 40 2D6+2 2D4+4 Requires Winery, Upbring can be paid in grapes
* Changed from Book of Manor or completely new
[] Roll if success then check is gained
[[]] Check gained

Opinions?

PDF at: http://gspendragon.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/pendragonmanorialinvestments.pdf

fg,
Thijs

I'm always keen to add more variety so I'll use some of those. I don't pretend to use any scientific method to determine what I like and don't like other than its aesthetic appeal to my English ears. Thus, lumber mill is out for me as I just think of lumberjacks running around in the Yukon - no offense meant to any Yukonites btw. The Inn should be a later stage build IMHO - my campaign is too early for such a thing (Uther period).

I'm not so fussed about the incomes. My players have talked about the altruistic benefits of the non-income upgrades and their intent to invest in them once they get a reasonable degree of income. At present all of my group are struggling to make much cash and at least half of them are living at Poor as a result, so while they may have virtually all bought Apiaries I can see the sense in that. In a few years time I know they will start to express themselves a little more with their purchases.

I do like the Astrologer and Herb Garden. I think Astrologer should be a retinue member and work along those lines - ie surrogate skill use - rather than giving an income. The Garden (maybe First Aid over Chirurgery? though I can see the reason for both) fits nicely, maybe later stage again, but I'll be using that.

You're right, it should be Observatory instead of Astrologer, with astrologer as retinue.
Ofcourse I want to add a random astrology event table (with 20: The astrologer makes an astronomy breakthrough and becomes famous throughout the known world [ok, ok, I admit I'm an astronomer in real life]
I'm open to suggestions for alternative lumber mill, Carpenter Mill?
Herbs in my view help with long-term healing (chirurgy), not short-term (first-aid), of course please proof me wrong (I am not a herbalist).
My campaign is 531+, so all is available, we can split them indeed between early and later (similar Horse Herd).
I'd say Winery, Inn, Gambling House, Olive Grove are late period.

Agree?

fg,
Thijs

That's what I'd use for my campaign although I do have Winery, Olive grove etc as non-period specific. I think Astrologer just fits as is without the need for an observatory. Of course, YPMV :)

You're right, it should be Observatory instead of Astrologer, with astrologer as retinue.


I am curious what a medieval observatory would be like. What equipment is there?



Of course I want to add a random astrology event table (with 20: The astrologer makes an astronomy breakthrough and becomes famous throughout the known world [ok, ok, I admit I'm an astronomer in real life]


See 534 (GPC p 249). Predict disaster.
And then in 535-536 (unmentioned in GPC) is the world-famous Cold Years, the dim sun, terrible modifiers to everyone's harvest.
(due to the cataclysm of Krakatoa)



I'm open to suggestions for alternative lumber mill, Carpenter Mill?

Here is another preview.
This is a Development, an improvement available and common to every village.

Carpenter
A carpenter is the all-purpose wood worker. Everyone does some wood work at home, like making shacks and fences. The carpenter chooses his logs and makes his own lumber. He makes furniture, plow parts, tool handles, pegs, and so on. On Sundays he carves statues for the local church or nearby cathedral.
Cost to build: £10
Annual Maintenance: £0
Annual Income: £0
Reduce Hate Landlord: 3

and another

Cooper
A cooper makes barrels, buckets and other waterproof wooden containers. The particular bend of the wood, perfection of fit and waterproofing make this an exacting and specialized job. A cooper provides barrels for his own village, and several others locally as well.
Cost to build: £15
Annual Maintenance: £0
Annual Income: £0
Reduce Hate Landlord: 2

I am curious what a medieval observatory would be like. What equipment is there?


You could say that Stonehenge is an observatory of sorts, and while something of that scale is beyond the capabilities of a single knight, a stone circle is listed as a manor enhancement. This could conceivably give some form of crude measurement.

I am curious what a medieval observatory would be like. What equipment is there?


You could say that Stonehenge is an observatory of sorts, and while something of that scale is beyond the capabilities of a single knight, a stone circle is listed as a manor enhancement. This could conceivably give some form of crude measurement.

Giving Pendragons many anachronisms I dont mind introducing the crude telescope a bit earlier...
Else you can have meridian tubes (telescopes are better, but tubes or standing stones etc work fine to make accurate star charts / calendars) facing perfect south (so measure star rising times), all kinds of map making equipment and log sheets, astrology books, sextants or similar looking objects.
[I refer to Vermeers "Astronomer"]


fg,
Thijs

Giving Pendragons many anachronisms I dont mind introducing the crude telescope a bit earlier...


I encourage personalizing your game.
I am just wondering what was actually available in the middle ages.



Else you can have meridian tubes (telescopes are better, but tubes or standing stones etc work fine to make accurate star charts / calendars) facing perfect south (so measure star rising times), all kinds of map making equipment and log sheets, astrology books, sextants or similar looking objects.
[I refer to Vermeers "Astronomer"]


1668 is very late.

As a point of information I usually end the anachronisms at 1500.
The wonders and stories that I put into the many magical locations, for instance, do not include any that are post-medieval.

OTOH, I know of another campaign where Merlin game a PC basically what you have described.
Whata guy!!

Giving Pendragons many anachronisms I dont mind introducing the crude telescope a bit earlier...


I encourage personalizing your game.
I am just wondering what was actually available in the middle ages.



Else you can have meridian tubes (telescopes are better, but tubes or standing stones etc work fine to make accurate star charts / calendars) facing perfect south (so measure star rising times), all kinds of map making equipment and log sheets, astrology books, sextants or similar looking objects.
[I refer to Vermeers "Astronomer"]


1668 is very late.

As a point of information I usually end the anachronisms at 1500.
The wonders and stories that I put into the many magical locations, for instance, do not include any that are post-medieval.

OTOH, I know of another campaign where Merlin game a PC basically what you have described.
Whata guy!!



Somehow I remember somewhere being described that Camelot has window-panes, so the step to lenses and telescopes is small (given the presence of magic/Merlin).
All other instruments mentioned existed earlier and even earlier in the Middle East.. (they just become more portable over time [imagine dragging Stonehenge along for observations]).
Add astrolabs and Planispheres, Ptolomeos models (of course smart astronomers had already Copernican models), moon charts.

Ofcourse as Bruno's (and later Gallilei's) fate thought us, that astronomers are as heretic as witches.. so proper Christian knights beware!

fg,
Thijs

You're right, it should be Observatory instead of Astrologer, with astrologer as retinue.


I am curious what a medieval observatory would be like. What equipment is there?

Well, if you want the boring version then a mathematicus would have a study with books, an abbacus, some 30'60'90 ruler and a angle-compass. As with most of knowledge before the renaissance actually doing stuff (like actually observing the stars) was seemed redundant if you knew the theory. So a "real" medieval mathematicus would rather consult his books than the stars. It is only in light of our modern minds that we think that an astrologer (http://www.bl.uk/learning/artimages/bodies/astrology/astrologyhome.html) should consult the real stars instead of their books.

For real life medieval observatories close to europe you got to got to the middle-east (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy_in_medieval_Islam#Early_observatories), the most basic would be a mural sextant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextant_(astronomical)). But if you are looking for equipment then an astrolabe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe) would be a given. But please check out this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy_in_medieval_Islam#Instruments), they where truly amazing.

One difficulty with Pendragon's condensed but accelerated timeline is that it does indeed get difficult to work out just what to introduce and when. Especially with the lands in question undergoing some radical changes from the 5th Century start and the pseudo 15th century finish.

The Ostrogoth Italians being one example. They are not quite Romans, but not exactly the Italians of the Middle Ages. Or the inclusion of Saracens and (in some editions) Islam despite preceding the birth of Mohamed.

Or the inclsuion of the Huns, but not the Mongols.

It can be a real minefield.

I'm changing astrologer into Observatory (which comes with an resident astrologer), and making astrologer a retinue position.
It will become much less profitable, but I'll add a table with celestial events and how they influence the harvest.
Suggestions?

fg,
Thijs

I'm changing astrologer into Observatory (which comes with an resident astrologer), and making astrologer a retinue position.
It will become much less profitable, but I'll add a table with celestial events and how they influence the harvest.
Suggestions?

fg,
Thijs



One idea would be to simply have the astrologer be able to roll some of the annual dice before autumn. For instance if he could roll one or two of the weather dice (but not all) or the roll on the event table, or even roll the misfortune die without knowing what the bad weather roll is. That way he (and the player) could have an inkling of what is to come without any certainty.

For instance if he gets to roll 2 out of the 3 bad weather dice, he can have a decent guess what the weather will be like, but won't know for certain.

Or if he gets to make the Misfortune roll, and gets a 15, he won't know for certain if that will be a successful roll or not, since he won't know what the bad weather and other modifiers are.

You might even give the astrology the choice of the three to roll, with a critical yielding a peak at two of the three (weather, event, misfortune) rolls.

What is neat about this is that the astrologer is only predicting the future, without actually changing it. That is, he isn't altering the events (that would require magic), but merely seeing what will happen and trying to give appropriate advice.

If desired, this could be used for some of the other random rolls and tables, like family events or marriage.

Observatories should be quite expensive. like £60 to build. With the mere building being a tower, then the lenses, books, astrolabs..
Costs at £3(astro-man)+replacement parts/writing materials etc £2d6
Profit: Glory 50/yr? & checks to worldly and proud (i know better than those priests..!!)

Yes, quite a heavy glory bonus, but also dangerous to have. Just like those early astronomers. Glorious, atleast afterwards, but always having to face the wrath of the church.

Observatories should be quite expensive. like £60 to build. With the mere building being a tower, then the lenses, books, astrolabs..
Costs at £3(astro-man)+replacement parts/writing materials etc £2d6
Profit: Glory 50/yr? & checks to worldly and proud (i know better than those priests..!!)

Yes, quite a heavy glory bonus, but also dangerous to have. Just like those early astronomers. Glorious, at least afterwards, but always having to face the wrath of the church.


I received a suggestion about adding this as a "Merlinic Wonder" a couple years ago

I see much less Glory in this.
What is knightly about a telescope?
Also, the church wrath does not fall on owners of weird stuff
It falls on people who say weird stuff, like "the planets have moons"

But the clincher for me is that I don't want PCs badgering me about how illogical it is to allow a large telescope "for the fun of it," but not to allow a smaller one to carry around and use, "for the practicality of it."

Yes, quite a heavy glory bonus, but also dangerous to have. Just like those early astronomers. Glorious, atleast afterwards, but always having to face the wrath of the church.
astronomy was super important to the Church because it allowed for the accurate timing of Easter, the Holy Office, and other stuff, influential figures like the Venerable Bede were very learned in astronomy, Peter Abelard loved astrolabes so much he named his kid Astrolabe, and the Church didn't come down on him because of that (they came down on him because Bernard of Clairvaux was Bernard of Clairvaux).

I realize this is an older thread that I am making an even older link on, but I'm new to this board and thought some folks may enjoy this collection of pictures of dovecotes/columbaria from around the world:

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2008/09/unique-pigeon-towers-of-iran.html

Just about to run a new game for some Rust Belt Pendragon friends from Pittsburgh to Detroit (meeting in Cleveland) and it sounds like the first manor improvement of all may indeed be the legendary dovecote. Personally, despite being a vegetarian, I wish people would eat more foul pigeon, I mean squab, today!

I was thinking of adding some extra roll for astrology predictions for the next year, granting a fate modifier or reroll or so. Or even some random events or adventure seeds...

fg,
Thijs

I'm changing astrologer into Observatory (which comes with an resident astrologer), and making astrologer a retinue position.
It will become much less profitable, but I'll add a table with celestial events and how they influence the harvest.
Suggestions?

fg,
Thijs


This is a VERY, VERY, non-Pendragon source, but the Werewolf: the Apocalypse Players' Guide had rules for how events such as "Mars ascendant or Jupiter ascendant" affected a character. It gave me the idea that you could create a table which includes details like those and how they affect life on the manor.

I'm aware that, in reality, those things could be verified objectively, but an astrologer who consults charts and books more than actual stars could have a different set of charts than his neighbor at the next manor, so on that basis they could vary between neighboring manors. Alternately they could vary because the lord of a particular manor has a different date of birth than his neighbor.

Just make certain you only include the planets that were known at the time; Leave Pluto out of this...