Hi,
I need some help/advice.
One of my players convinced me earlier to let him do some horsebreeding (with his Destrier he gained from the luck table).
I allowed that, came up with same system that would come up with some 'Large Chargers' that he could sell in a few years at a minor profit.
Now the brilliant guy (didnt see it coming) rescued those 3 royal black destriers from 'Blood&Lust' which cost around 800L each and he pulled of to get those 3 horses to interbreed with his own horses.. which means that he will likely end up with 3horses of 400L each (if he gets lucky 6 horses of 800L, and knowing that player since he also stewarding 3 other hers perhaps even 12 horses).. that's 1200L, ok after selling 600L, but that's huge...
Now, I never punish player for outwitting the GM, so I will let him have that, but I wonder how in-game people would react to this?
Would people figure out he had his herd impregnated by those 3 black super-destriers? Would the Earl (=owner) be angry? Would he demand them? Would the Earl appoint him as master of his stables (being impressed by his breeding results)
[He saved those 3 horses for the Earl so currently the Earl is very happy with him, especially since the player donated a Large Destrier to the Earls Son].
Would he be the target of dozens of raids by people trying to get those horses?
Would his friends expect him to gift them those horses (instead of selling them)?

fg,
Thijs

This is just off the top of my head, but for starters I think you will find that any highly prized breeding stock has their bloodline very carefully controlled. Getting your hands on a few and then mingling them in with your (relatively) low-life destriers is likely to reduce their value to zilch. That's how I would play it anyway.

I don't know what type of campaign you're playing but from the sounds of it you are very much at the Lord level of gaming. If so, then this may not be a problem at all, if not, then I'd do something about it otherwise you will have a player so far ahead in terms of wealth that it could break things - why worry about the annual harvest when you've got 800L+ sitting in the coffers?

This is just off the top of my head, but for starters I think you will find that any highly prized breeding stock has their bloodline very carefully controlled. Getting your hands on a few and then mingling them in with your (relatively) low-life destriers is likely to reduce their value to zilch. That's how I would play it anyway.

He got his hands on them very sneakily (gaining several checks in deceit), just long enough to breed.
But you're right, the value will drop very much, given the examples given in blood&lust 50-210L.
So how much would a mix with a perfect black (x10) attack-trained (x3) destrier (32L) and a standard (x1) charger (8L) become worth?
My guess: Imperfect black (5x) Attack-trainable (x2) Large Charger (20L), so 200L
[Attack training the player cant provide yet]



I don't know what type of campaign you're playing but from the sounds of it you are very much at the Lord level of gaming. If so, then this may not be a problem at all, if not, then I'd do something about it otherwise you will have a player so far ahead in terms of wealth that it could break things - why worry about the annual harvest when you've got 800L+ sitting in the coffers.


Nope, there just starting vassal knights... which I why I am worried about those 800L..
And how the rest of the world will respond to a mere vassal knight holding those kind of assets...

fg,
Thijs

What is the Loyalty (Lord) score of the knight in question, or his Generosity? If it's relatively high then surely such fine horses should be given as a gift to ones lord? In return the PK will receive something too, but it gives you the chance to trade down the value.

What is the Loyalty (Lord) score of the knight in question, or his Generosity? If it's relatively high then surely such fine horses should be given as a gift to ones lord? In return the PK will receive something too, but it gives you the chance to trade down the value.

Normal generosity and 16+ Loyalty lord..
[Knowing already that he was not being to honest to his lord, he donated a previously Large Charger to the Earl]
I am sure he will donate another to the Earl, but not all of them (if he has more then 3 (one for himself)).

fg,
Thijs

I need some help/advice.
One of my players convinced me earlier to let him do some horsebreeding (with his Destrier he gained from the luck table).
I allowed that, came up with same system that would come up with some 'Large Chargers' that he could sell in a few years at a minor profit.


I hope your player(s) are reasonable enough to allow you to correct made-up errors without complaining too much.



Now the brilliant guy (didn't see it coming) rescued those 3 royal black destriers from 'Blood&Lust' which cost around 800L each and he pulled of to get those 3 horses to interbreed with his own horses.. which means that he will likely end up with 3horses of 400L each (if he gets lucky 6 horses of 800L, and knowing that player since he also stewarding 3 other hers perhaps even 12 horses).. that's 1200L, ok after selling 600L, but that's huge...


I am no professional breeder (although someone in this list it), but even my experience with guppies requires me to modify your stats.
And my wife did a scad of work on breeding horses for color (unpublished so far) which I will draw from.

First of all, I would require that the Stable Improvement be present for this special breeding.

Then, a 100% pregnancy and delivery rate is pretty darn fantastic.
All horses growing to maturity would be remarkable as well.
A horse will require at least 2 years to be full grown, and a big horse like a destrier probably 3. To being trained as a combat steed will likely take 1-3 more.
Some horses that are big will not be trainable to tasks desired, and must be rejected as war horses.
Half the horses will be mares, and not usable as war stock at all.

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER:
There are two kinds of black horses, "true black" and "common black."
Common black horses (far, far more common than the very rare true black) fade to brown in the sun. Only their eyelashes and muzzle hairs remain black. Obviously the Stygian Stallions are not that type.

But even true black horses do not breed true.
Even modern geneticists cannot predict if a foal will be black even with two black parents.
Foals born from black dams and sires are born gray and bay. A few of them turn black when they grow to maturity. Most don't.

These kinds of numbers don't matter for a general herd, but ought to for these specialties.

So, the foals will grow up (if they do) to be large chargers, but not true black.



Now, I never punish player for outwitting the GM, so I will let him have that, but I wonder how in-game people would react to this?
Would people figure out he had his herd impregnated by those 3 black super-destriers?



See above about revising your rules.



Would the Earl (=owner) be angry?


The emotional state of the NPCs is generally left up to the Gamemaster.



Would he demand them?


Mine would. And a fine for stealing from the lord. There are laws about this. Your knight has broken them.
To say nothing of the intentional deceit to his lord!



Would the Earl appoint him as master of his stables (being impressed by his breeding results)


Not my earl. Who would put a fox in charge of the chicken coop?



Would he be the target of dozens of raids by people trying to get those horses?


Maybe if he ever gets any.




Would his friends expect him to gift them those horses (instead of selling them)?



Expect? What kind of friends are these that expect to benefit from one of their number?
Your answer lies therein.

So lets sum things up.

He is a horse thief. (Doesn't help that he gave them back).
He broke his oath of loyalty to his lord.
He has to either have or will lie directly to his lord.
He is trying to become a burgher.

That is some darned un-knightly behaviour right there.

I think that you need to have a talk with your players, do they want to play in the Pendragon fairytale or not? These are the same players that min-max their manors, try to break the fighting system, trying to bypass the amour system, etc.
In short, they are munchkins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_(role-playing_games)).... and you let them.
That is fine if it was a rigid system that has checks and balances for exploits, but Pendragon, both in rules and in setting, is highly exploitable. So then you as a GM must be those checks and balances, but clearly you are not.

So if you and they want to play the game like that, then do that, go full tilt, let them exploit it and have all the fun that you want. If so let them have their victories and stop trying to hamper them after the fact. Let them get rich and powerful. Let them have the hundreds of libra and the mighty horses, let them hire a mercenary army and conquer their neighbours, let them woo the ladies and sleep around, let them build mutltiples of the investment buildings, let them use fighting moves all the time. Stop being a spoilsport. If it is how they and you want it then you should not stop them, instead put in higher wagers and bigger enemies to oppose. Go wild and let your players go wild to. You do this to have fun anyway.

But if they want to actually play in the pendragon fairytale, then they should understand that all of that behaviour that you have been talking about in so many threads have to go away. They are supposed to act like knights and if they are christian/chivalrous then they are supposed to act like that too. Not like villains or burghers. Sure if this was the uther period, then one can expect them to get away with a lot of things, but in the reign of Arthur they should not. I don't know which edition of KAP you are playing but I would suggest that you read through the honor section again and let your players do it as well.
Now mind you all knights in the Arthur tale has a weakness or a flaw. But that is what creates character. That is if you are good but have a single flaw. If it is the other way around then they should not be heroes but villains.

Best of luck


on the specific situation, if it where me, I would let him breed those horses, but demand lots of investements into it. Like stables pastures, trainers, etc. Then wwhen they are ready to be sold I would have the lord pop by on one of those tours that they do. Then he would spot the horses and with a simple recognize see that they are of that specific decent. Then you would suddenly have a mercenary knight instead of a vassal knight.

Even if the horses may be worth 800L, who has that much wealth to spend? The knights may find that only the king is able to afford them and will recognize their origin. Or he will pay with a royal IOU that he later cannot afford to repay.

Even if the horses may be worth 800L, who has that much wealth to spend? The knights may find that only the king is able to afford them and will recognize their origin. Or he will pay with a royal IOU that he later cannot afford to repay.


You're right, only Earls can afford them and will never pay in cash...

fg,
Thijs

Even if the horses may be worth 800L, who has that much wealth to spend? The knights may find that only the king is able to afford them and will recognize their origin. Or he will pay with a royal IOU that he later cannot afford to repay.


You're right, only Earls can afford them and will never pay in cash...

fg,
Thijs


Not that your character would need cash. Keep in mind, most expenditures in the game don';t use cash. If the PC can find a buyer, and that buyer is willing to honor his obligations, he can make payment in something other than coin, or even a mix of coin and goods.

Now imagine the difficulty said PC knight can have trying to get 800L back to his manor. Each 1L tranlates into a couple of cows, 3 swords, 4 suits of hard leather armor, a mail shirt, a diamond, a tapestry, 4 drinking glasses, a silver dish, a pavilion, etc.

Said PC is going to need to hire guards, pack horses, and then transport all this treasure back to his manor. Slow going. All the while being a prime target for bandits, or anyone else who "wants to be a millionare". 800L is enough to maintain a vassal knight for over 130 years, or provide for a commoner's family for about 800 years!

And, assuming the knight manages to get the stuff home, his troubles don't stop there. Practically everybody in the area is going to know where all that loot went. And it is still there, just waiting for someone to show up and take it. Oh, and there might even be some prime warhorses there too. Even more fun, the knight in question is on poor terms with his liege lord.

Knights will probably be fighting each other to see who gets first crack at raiding.


The knight will be forced to spend some of his wealth just to up his defenses, hire more men, build walls and so on. Just the sort of activity that worries liege lords. Doubly so when the knight in question is one whose loyalty is in question.So maybe the Earl visits a lot, and brings a large retinue with him.

Lots of possibilities. None look too good for the PC knight.

Excellent analysis - that sounds like a lot of fun for a game.

Thanks, this was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for.

fg,
Thijs

Also a destrier is not a breed but a class of horse, therefore the training of a destrier should make up a signifikant part of the prize.

Guppy breeding sure is tricky, especialy sins the females can save the milt for later.

What is Saxons, or Mordred, or some other villain were to capture his lord, or his lady love, or heir? Of course the villain knows he's rich, and demands a vast some for the ransom.

If you're still in the anarachy, it's entirely possible some rogues have run off with the earl's heir. Now the kidnappers demand a huge ransom, and of course the coffers have all run dry.

Any scenario where this knight has to choose between wealth (and the PC obviously values wealth) and his loyalty/love/honor will be fun to play out.