Let’s say I have a manor with well-treated peasants, and some Saxons or Silchester knights come a-raiding to my demesne. Will the peasants warn me in time to armor up and ride out, or will I just look out my window one morning and see flames? And if I pre-stage wood and oil for beacon fires on hilltops, could I trust that in their own self-interest they would light the fires to call for aid faster instead of just stealing the wood?

See, I’m picturing two knights trying to best defend their manors in the Anarchy period. Knight A grabs loot wherever he can, including from the neighbors and squeezing his own peasants, to build/man the strongest possible walls around his hall. Knight B is linked by bonds of trust and signal beacons to his peasants and allied neighbors, and meets invaders with brother knights at his side in well-scouted terrain (preferably a hilltop). I’m thinking that B is far better off – IF he can pull it off.

What say you?

It would be a failed raid if your peasants had the time to warn you. Even with beacons, if the villains know that such beacons have been placed then those would be the first target, before doing the proper raid.

So I'd think that they would only help if the raiders fumble their approach.

What say you?


I say A is better off.
Even if the knight isn't there the peasants can get into the fort for some protection against anything but the snatch and run raid.

Thank you both for your replies. Your points make sense.

Dang the Anarchy period is tough! I've got 1,500 years of military thinking on those guys, texts from Xenophon to Byzantine Emperor Maurice to Sun Tzu, and while there are things to give one an edge I am finding *nothing* the lone manor-holder can do that guarantees safety for himself and his people.

It's quite humbling.

No wonder Arthur was missed.

Dang the Anarchy period is tough! I've got 1,500 years of military thinking on those guys, texts from Xenophon to Byzantine Emperor Maurice to Sun Tzu, and while there are things to give one an edge I am finding *nothing* the lone manor-holder can do that guarantees safety for himself and his people.

It's quite humbling.

No wonder Arthur was missed.


I am working on a system for raids, pillages and plunders.
The best thing in Anarchy is a fortified manor with 5 soldiers an a standard wife (i.e.- knows Siege).

I am finding *nothing* the lone manor-holder can do that guarantees safety for himself and his people.


Standing troops and fortifications. That and poverty. You want the neighbouring manors to be better targets than yours.
So one thing is to spend any surplus on standing troops.

Location helps.

With my group, a couple of the players are fairly well located in the middle of Salisbury. This gives them some protection simply by the fact that the raiders would have to pass by a lot of other manors and plunder just to get to these manors. So, unless the PCs are noted for being really wealthy, or the "buffer" manors have already been raided a couple of times, making them less appealing, these PC manors are probably not going to get raided much.

But, if you in a bad location to begin with, that isn't much comfort.

If a place is really getting hammered by raids, though, a knight could petition his lord for assistance. The manor would really need to be getting raided often and with such numbers that it would be noticable that the knight is being totally overmatched through no fault of his own.

I am working on a system for raids, pillages and plunders.

Great! I look forward to it, having always had a fondness for such actions -- and for defending against them.



The best thing in Anarchy is a fortified manor with 5 soldiers an a standard wife (i.e.- knows Siege).

Absolutely. But such protection is pricey for a single, average manor. A ditch, rampart, and moat (DV4) takes 1L/year to maintain. Garrison soldiers each cost 1L/year to maintain. So unless I’m reading the BoM incorrectly, basic fortification plus five soldiers costs 6L/year – the cost of a second landed knight!

So I’m trying to find ways to fortify a manor *affordably*.

One possibility: Have five farmers be yeoman types, with Mercenary skill levels and pay (BoM p.12), except the 60 days’ service is taken as guard shifts and during alerts/attacks instead of contiguous days. That lowers the soldiery costs to 2.5L/year. Woo a wife who has the Gentlewoman’s Bonus instead of one with huge … tracts of land, invest wisely in a small improvement or two, and the defenses can be paid for with the revenue from a single manor – barely. Will this work?

Standing troops and fortifications. That and poverty. You want the neighbouring manors to be better targets than yours.
So one thing is to spend any surplus on standing troops.


Definitely -- a very good policy. Thank you.

Location helps.

With my group, a couple of the players are fairly well located in the middle of Salisbury. This gives them some protection simply by the fact that the raiders would have to pass by a lot of other manors and plunder just to get to these manors. So, unless the PCs are noted for being really wealthy, or the "buffer" manors have already been raided a couple of times, making them less appealing, these PC manors are probably not going to get raided much.


Hmmm ... or one can have an out-of-the-way manor at the edge of the Forest. Nice roleplaying opportunities there ... raiders don't come by often, but neither do wandering peddlers selling supplies, and occasionally Something comes wandering out of Modron's Forest (or makes you have to wander into it) ... I like it.

Hmmm ... or one can have an out-of-the-way manor at the edge of the Forest. Nice roleplaying opportunities there ... raiders don't come by often, but neither do wandering peddlers selling supplies, and occasionally Something comes wandering out of Modron's Forest (or makes you have to wander into it) ... I like it.


Funny you should mention that. One of my PCs ended up with Tisbury, right on the edge of Modron's Forest. He's been working on his Faerie Lore just in case. Turns out he was the guy who rolled up the largest army, too. After checking on the area I discovered a nearby manor with a reputation for belonging to the Gawain family. Could make for some exiting neighbors once we reach the Boy King era.

Oh, yeah. Don't forget those family knights and lineage men. Some of them might be hanging around the family manor, and can give your defenses a bit of a bolster.

If a place is really getting hammered by raids, though, a knight could petition his lord for assistance. The manor would really need to be getting raided often and with such numbers that it would be noticable that the knight is being totally overmatched through no fault of his own.


He doesn't need to petition for help.
You liege lord has a duty to protect your land--that is why he is the lord.
If he is present, he will send someone to chase raiders. That's why your knight rides patrol, stands ready and so on.

Even if your manor is being raided I assume that your liege lord is already doing his job, chasing off raiders and so on as he can. He just can't be everywhere at once,

The best thing in Anarchy is a fortified manor with 5 soldiers an a standard wife (i.e.- knows Siege).

Absolutely. But such protection is pricey for a single, average manor. A ditch, rampart, and moat (DV4) takes 1L/year to maintain. Garrison soldiers each cost 1L/year to maintain. So unless I’m reading the BoM incorrectly, basic fortification plus five soldiers costs 6L/year – the cost of a second landed knight!


OK, so the system works. :-)



So I’m trying to find ways to fortify a manor *affordably*.


There are two ways: by altering the system, or by trying to find a way around it.



One possibility: Have five farmers be yeoman types,


By "yoeman types" I presume you mean an armed and raided peasant?
Yoemen are a specific type of commoner, a free man instead of a serf.



with Mercenary skill levels and pay (BoM p.12), except the 60 days’ service is taken as guard shifts and during alerts/attacks instead of contiguous days. That lowers the soldiery costs to 2.5L/year.


Pretty clever, but if this were possible, do you not think that it would be standard, normal and widespread?
1. These part-timers are not real soldiers, they are rent-a-spear types. Soldiery requires training and other duties. Will you expect a part-timer to know where the weak points in the defense are, to know when to counter attack, or frankly, to stand in front of his fellows and protect them when they are running away?
2. In any attack on the manor all the peasants crowd into the fort, and they help there with the defense in whatever manner needed. This is dropping rocks, carrying rocks to the walls, putting out fires, and anything else needed to help protect his babies.



Woo a wife who has the Gentlewoman’s Bonus


This bonus, like the Chivalry Bonus, is not generally granted to NPCs (of course exceptions exist).

In conclusion, I hope you understand that it is supposed to be difficult to fortify and garrison a manor.

Interesting enough, after only three sessions during the Romance Period (531-533) 75% of my players have fortified their manors with ditch+ramparts&Moat, after suffering a (GM-planned) raid and one (bad luck harvest) Dragon Raid, spending every piece of plunder/ransom they've obtained...
[And all build an apiary, sigh]

fg,
Thijs

[And all build an apiary, sigh]


I expect everyone to do that fist, and then get a Dovecote.

Funny, the 2 richer one did that and then one even build a coneygarth...
[And a Jousting Tilt]

fg,
Thijs

with Mercenary skill levels and pay (BoM p.12), except the 60 days’ service is taken as guard shifts and during alerts/attacks instead of contiguous days. That lowers the soldiery costs to 2.5L/year.


Pretty clever, but if this were possible, do you not think that it would be standard, normal and widespread?
1. These part-timers are not real soldiers, they are rent-a-spear types. Soldiery requires training and other duties. Will you expect a part-timer to know where the weak points in the defense are, to know when to counter attack, or frankly, to stand in front of his fellows and protect them when they are running away?
2. In any attack on the manor all the peasants crowd into the fort, and they help there with the defense in whatever manner needed. This is dropping rocks, carrying rocks to the walls, putting out fires, and anything else needed to help protect his babies.


I had a feeling that solution was too good to be true ...



In conclusion, I hope you understand that it is supposed to be difficult to fortify and garrison a manor.


That is coming through loud and clear. Especially if one wants to keep a reserve to cover unfortunate events.

Funny, the 2 richer one did that and then one even build a coneygarth...


Doesn't a coneygarth grant annual Cowardly rolls? Is money really worth that price?

By "yoeman types" I presume you mean an armed and raided peasant?
Yoemen are a specific type of commoner, a free man instead of a serf.


Pretty clever, but if this were possible, do you not think that it would be standard, normal and widespread?

Historically, it eventually was. At least in Britain. By the 15th century, the British were relying quite heavily on Yeomen Longbowmen, who by law practiced 20 hours a week with the longbow.

Not much use to us in Pendragon, though. Just about the time the whole setup would start to become economically practical we get hit with the Wasting, Grail Quest, and breaking of the Round Table. With luck some might be able to bring Yeoman Longbowmen with them to Camlahm. ;)

Funny, the 2 richer one did that and then one even build a coneygarth...


Doesn't a coneygarth grant annual Cowardly rolls? Is money really worth that price?

It's a roll, so if you have really low cowardly, you never make the roll and hence never get the check and never goes up.

fg,
Thijs

Another thought: How about giving bagpipes to the shepherds who roam the hills between the PK and "buffer" manors? They'd sound the alarm when the neighboring manors get attacked, and the PKs would ride out to engage the raiders on the neighbor's lands. Cymric bagpipes are documented back to the 900s, their sound sure is loud enough to carry, and (taking a page from the Byzantines) raiders with loot are massively slowed down/easy to catch.

Not sure if the neighbors would see distributing bagpipes as "assistance" though -- might even inspire a Hate passion ... ;)

Maybe building a beacon halfway between the manors and *hoping* the raiders won't attack something far to the rear of their primary target is a better bet.

Another thought: How about giving bagpipes to the shepherds who roam the hills between the PK and "buffer" manors? They'd sound the alarm when the neighboring manors get attacked, and the PKs would ride out to engage the raiders on the neighbor's lands. Cymric bagpipes are documented back to the 900s, their sound sure is loud enough to carry, and (taking a page from the Byzantines) raiders with loot are massively slowed down/easy to catch.

Not sure if the neighbors would see distributing bagpipes as "assistance" though -- might even inspire a Hate passion ... ;)

Maybe building a beacon halfway between the manors and *hoping* the raiders won't attack something far to the rear of their primary target is a better bet.


1) You are assuming that your knights are at home just waiting, while they are most probably away patrolling the border for the earl keeping those pesky raiders away.
2) Have you heard bagpipes in a distance? Its terribly hard to tell from which direction the noise is comin.
3) Someone correct me but aren't the bagpipes mentioned somewhere in KAP as pictish?
4) And the most damning. You are using modern rational thinking to solve a medieval problem. In that era they did not think or act like we do. Involving the peasants in the defense like that would make them targets. So instead of having a raid where all the peasants immediately run to the closest wood and hide and after the danger is passed they would return, you would instead end up with lots of dead peasants. So the whole basis for your manorial economy, gone. The whole point of having a clear seperation between non-fighters and fighters is that you know which will put up resistance and which will not. If the local population resists knights, their superior in every way, then they should and will be wiped out for their presumptiousnes. There are several cases where peasant uprisings are put down by the enemies of the overthrown lord. Because those peasants have no right to do such a thing against the known world order.
So including your peasants in any active way will get them killed. Unless they do so under the guidance of a lord, where the lord takes the responsibility for the decision and thus the consequences.

4) And the most damning. You are using modern rational thinking to solve a medieval problem. In that era they did not think or act like we do. Involving the peasants in the defense like that would make them targets. So instead of having a raid where all the peasants immediately run to the closest wood and hide and after the danger is passed they would return, you would instead end up with lots of dead peasants. So the whole basis for your manorial economy, gone. The whole point of having a clear seperation between non-fighters and fighters is that you know which will put up resistance and which will not. If the local population resists knights, their superior in every way, then they should and will be wiped out for their presumptiousnes. There are several cases where peasant uprisings are put down by the enemies of the overthrown lord. Because those peasants have no right to do such a thing against the known world order.
So including your peasants in any active way will get them killed. Unless they do so under the guidance of a lord, where the lord takes the responsibility for the decision and thus the consequences.


Hadn't considered that. Good point. Thank you for raising it.

This discussion is turning into a real eye-opener. I appreciate the education.

Funny, the 2 richer one did that and then one even build a coneygarth...
[And a Jousting Tilt]

fg,
Thijs

Please note as per this thread discussion, the higher the income vs defences the higher the likelyhood of a raid. So if your knights get better income than the average knight then they can expect to be raided.

Funny, the 2 richer one did that and then one even build a coneygarth...
[And a Jousting Tilt]

fg,
Thijs

Please note as per this thread discussion, the higher the income vs defences the higher the likelyhood of a raid. So if your knights get better income than the average knight then they can expect to be raided.


Regrettably there is not a 'rule' for that?
eg. For each L income there is 1% of being raided

fg,
THijs

4) And the most damning. You are using modern rational thinking to solve a medieval problem. In that era they did not think or act like we do. Involving the peasants in the defense like that would make them targets. So instead of having a raid where all the peasants immediately run to the closest wood and hide and after the danger is passed they would return, you would instead end up with lots of dead peasants. So the whole basis for your manorial economy, gone. The whole point of having a clear seperation between non-fighters and fighters is that you know which will put up resistance and which will not. If the local population resists knights, their superior in every way, then they should and will be wiped out for their presumptiousnes. There are several cases where peasant uprisings are put down by the enemies of the overthrown lord. Because those peasants have no right to do such a thing against the known world order.
So including your peasants in any active way will get them killed. Unless they do so under the guidance of a lord, where the lord takes the responsibility for the decision and thus the consequences.


Hadn't considered that. Good point. Thank you for raising it.

This discussion is turning into a real eye-opener. I appreciate the education.


Instead hire 50 knifemen, spread them around, install some heliographs (he, just mirrors or shiny pieces of bronze).
Boobytrap all non-authorized access-roads,
Secretly slaughter some poor bandits in terrible horrible way and claim you have magical faerie-protection
Actually bribe some faeries to protect your lands...
if anyone dares to raid anyway, counter-raid and destroy them and their family in such horrific ways no-one dares it again.
if anyone dares to raid anyway, secretly assassinate all their loved ones as a warning

:)

fg,
Thijs

Instead hire 50 knifemen, spread them around,


Excellent! That is the equivalent of outfitting two or three bandit gangs.
Great. That +6 to your peasant's Misery.



install some heliographs (he, just mirrors or shiny pieces of bronze).


These are to scare ravens maybe? What do we have, 50 guys in trees now with mirrors.
Yea, that is scary



Boobytrap all non-authorized access-roads,


:D Har har, wonderful
An "extra roads" hey?



Secretly slaughter some poor bandits in terrible horrible way and claim you have magical faerie-protection


And the Saxons would hear about this how?



Actually bribe some faeries to protect your lands...


Make a deal with faeries?
What kind are those, D&D elves?



if anyone dares to raid anyway, counter-raid and destroy them and their family in such horrific ways no-one dares it again.
if anyone dares to raid anyway, secretly assassinate all their loved ones as a warning


There is nothing extraordinary about these last two. Everybody tries that stuff all the time anyway.
Too bad it's not so easy to do.

Make a deal with faeries?
What kind are those, D&D elves?



Nah, Pendragon Redcaps! :o
That'll show those raiders!

Now the cost of offset all the "Hate Landlord" points that having a Redcap in the retinue would make raiding look cheap. But hey, we can't have everything.