I now understand Lancelot a little better. Not the greatest knight in Christendom bit but the man and the love story that he is the focus of.

In the many versions of the Lancelot, Guinevere and Arthur cycle that I have read, they seem to be evenly split on whether the Lancelot - Guinevere love affair was consummated or not. One side seems to have the two loving and lusting for each other but not giving into their love and lust because of their love and loyalty to Arthur. That they did love and lust for each other allowed their enemies and the enemies of Arthur to use them against the king. I use the term lust in that they did want to take their love to the physical and love to just refer to the emotional bond they felt.

Recent events in my life has shown me that this Lancelot is not the dirt bag that some would say he is. He can be in love with Guinevere so much that knowing that he can't have her would drive him mad. He can be human and lust after her but not act on it because it would conflict with his love and loyalty to Arthur. Granted the Christian doctrine calls coveting a neighbour's wife as a sin, it is an ideal and hard to live up to. I take this now as part of the Best Knight shtick.

On the whole, I now like Lancelot a lot better than I did.

If it was just Lancelot and Guenever's adultery, then there wouldn't be some many problems with the character. Yes, he's human, he messed up, it happens. It's more about the fact that he has been made out to be a pure paragon of Honour and Chivalry. He's a perfect ideal for men to aspire to... Then it turns out that he doesn't live up to those ideals himself.

If an average person is involved in adultery, well, it's not admirable but so it goes. If someone who was on television across the world preaching to everyone about Morality and the right way to live was found to be sleeping with someone else's wife- THAT is a scandal. Because he's not just an Adulterer, he's a Hypocrite. That's the problem for me.

Well, that and the fact that Lancelot is a Mary Sue character. Even if there was no adultery, and he did stay true to all the ideals he was a paragon of, I'd hate him.

On the whole, I now like Lancelot a lot better than I did.


If you don't connect with the idea of Fine Amor, then you'll proabably not connect with Lancelot at all and view him in a much different light.

You have to understand where Lancelot is coming from in order not to view him with cyncism and hypocrisy. I think his is a story greater than Tristram's saga, because it not only deals with Love, but also Compassion.

Lancelot is a paragon. The ONLY thing he ever does wrong is with Guenivere. ( granted its a big one). Or if you prefer the version that I do, that they resisted the consumation. Yes it's unrealistic, but so is fighting an ogre! ;D That would be what makes it a great love story.

For those of you who believe in the consumation.... Just think about this for a moment. My friend explained it this way and I raised an eyebrow. In the theme of romance and Love the more honrable the man and woman involved the greater the story! Lancelot is the ultimate honorable knight. The one thing he holds dear is his honor. It never gets called into question. But he loves Guenivere so much that it overcomes even the love of his honor. So he gives up his very honor to show guenivere he honors and loves her. Strange, but noble in it's own way?

Lancelot is a paragon. The ONLY thing he ever does wrong is with Guenivere. ( granted its a big one).

Well, that's just it - are you SURE it was the wrong thing to do?

Notice how Arthur - according to every convention of society and religion - should himself be the one going after Lancelot ... and, yet, he doesn't.

this might be slightly off topic, but as i understand Lancelot he has the following magical items:

1. a ring that allows him to banish any magic and renders him immune to magic
2. three shields that give him consecutively greater strength
3. near impenetrable silver armor

All these gifts were granted by Viviane, the Lady of the Lake, his foster mother.

One way I understand Lancelot is that he's pampered, coddled, and armed to a t.

:)

D

Lancelot is a paragon. The ONLY thing he ever does wrong is with Guenivere. ( granted its a big one).

Well, that's just it - are you SURE it was the wrong thing to do?

Notice how Arthur - according to every convention of society and religion - should himself be the one going after Lancelot ... and, yet, he doesn't.

Gonna agree with this. I understand that the Breton lais, a major genre of the period, featured semi-adulterous to adulterous relationships in which the husband is cast as jealous, wicked, and spiteful, even though he may be the one getting cuckolded. In that view, Arthur may be sort of in the right, as he isn't getting in the way of True Love.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Lancelot comes from the french rendition of Arthur's story. As such, he is their role-model. And what could be better than a love story where love is such a pure ideal that all things must bow to it.

In a lot of those French stories, Arthur is a pretty pathetic figure, I believe. Lancelot could easily be justified as in the right compared to that version of him.

In a lot of those French stories, Arthur is a pretty pathetic figure, I believe. Lancelot could easily be justified as in the right compared to that version of him.


The fact that they make Arthur seem so pathetic just to make their new invented role model look better is another reason to dislike Lancelot for me.

You know how Hollywood likes to stick an American character into everything that doesn't already have one, and make the story revolve around him? Well, as far as I'm concerned that's what the French did with Lancelot. He's a Medieval Marty Stu and I see nothing redeeming about him whatsoever.

Actually after reading some of these comments i can see adifferent Lancelot. He is spoiled, Raised by a sorceress, given magic items9 # or 4) always is rich with the best armor and weapons, favored above all men by a king who trusts him like a bother,......man what a duche! :D And the French people wanna make fun of our King.... Oh geez. Heck no..... But seriously, Maybe Lancelot was made up in the French books to ruin or satirize the old british hero? who knows?

Don't know if you've seen this yet, but Greg Stafford (http://weareallus.com/pendragon/lancelot1.html) has weighed in on the issue elsewhere.

(Hi, I'm Jason. Not currently playing Pendragon, but I've run it in the recent past)

I understand Lancelot's place in the stories and the history behind him, more or less, but from my personal point of view he'll never be anything but a traitor. He betrays his king and his knightly oaths, and what's more he's a bully about it when anyone tries to expose the truth, so I can add abuse of power to his list of sins. He may be the representation of the Romantic Knight, but when it comes to the truth, he reverts right back to the Uther-ian "Might makes Right" mentality and just beats the person until they withdraw their complaint (which is also weak, have the guts to die for your convictions, and the truth!).

That's just my perspective, admittedly from someone who is not steeped in Arthurian lore.

Greg sems to have it right, as do a few others. the french Troubadors wanted a better FRENCH hero. And the Court Ladies needed one. Thats why I like Gawaine!!!!!! ;)