My campaign is now 6 years old, currently in AD490, having started in AD484. Everything is going pretty well, with no major problems, except that I'm wondering if my players are just too tough. For ages, before starting the game, I kept telling them how deadly Pendragon was. They still think it is, but as each year goes by without a PK death, I'm worried they may become blase, or that their current characters will become so good, that they'll never appreciate another one (having had it all, too early as it were). So far they have come through Mearcred Creek unscathed (using old battle rules at the time), dealt with the giant in recovering excalibur, had no major upsets while raiding the coast with madoc, and kicked the arse of the water leapers in Somerset for King Cadwy. I roll all my dice in the open, and have never once fudged the result to help keep a PK alive. The closest any PK has come to death is through infected wounds and failed weekly chirurgery rolls.

I'm not trying to kill my PKs by the way!! I'm happy they are alive, but as a GM whose game style is a very gritty, low fantasy one, I am wondering if this may take the shine of things later on.

These are my PK stats as of now. Their Glory levels range from 2500 to 3300. Thus, for the most part, they have received 3 Glory bonus point awards, along with 6 winters of training. (LUC is my own campaign specific addition).

No. SIZ DEX STR CON LUC APP HPs Dmg Best Weapon
1 11 13 12 17 11 13 28 4d6 Spear 15
2 11 19 10 15 8 11 26 4d6 Spear 19
3 17 11 10 18 8 11 35 5d6 Mace 16
4 16 14 13 22 13 9 38 5d6 Mace 15
5 17 14 10 21 12 11 38 5d6 Axe 18
6 15 17 13 15 13 14 30 5d6 Sword 16
(all with normal chain and shield as armour. 2 of them currently have the armour of honour)

Also worth noting is that I do not allow my PKs to break race maximums via normal winter training. Only Glory bonus points can do this. Most of my guys have tended to load CON and SIZ (and I apply a -1 APP & DEX penalty for each point of additional SIZ) when they have decided to improve a stat. Does this look way OTT or within the normal range expected for knights of that experience?

Also worth noting is that I do not allow my PKs to break race maximums via normal winter training. Only Glory bonus points can do this.


That is the correct rule.

What are their Sword or other weapon skills? By the way? That's a vital part of understanding how tough a knight is. But based on those stats, and the maximum sword skill they could have with 3,000 glory, they are definitely not too tough.

I wouldn't worry too much about them not dying. You can have a game where PCs die very rarely, but the players still perceive it as deadly and dangerous/ Characters can be disabled, suffer infection, etc. In fact, the Pendragon combat mechanics tend to disable characters much more often than kill them. It's should have a fairly low death rate, but still manages to feel gritty.

Now, the fact that you have 6 PCs may mean that some encounters you put them up against are too easy, if you use the listed encounters in typical Pendragon encounters. With a group that size, if I was playing an adventure that set a giant against the pcs, I'd use two giants, or two trolls, or a giant with some minions.

If they are facing a wyrm, I'd try to make sure the encounter happened in a cave or in tricky ground, so that only 3 players could get it at once, or that they had to make horsemanship or Dex rolls each round to be able to attack it.

With a group that size, find a way to make the encounter more dangerous than listed - add extra opponents, using environment or other complications, restricting the number of players that can attack at once - but also making sure they aren't just sitting waiting for their turn to attack (perhaps when some is knocked down, they are trapped in mud or enchanted brambles, and their armour penalises their DEX or STR roll for getting out - but another character can pull them out without that penalty).

Failing that, sic Black Annis on them. As a humanoid target, only 2 or 3 of the players can attack her at once, and if you play her viciously, she can take out a team very fast. Or any of the special monsters from the sauvage forest part. Or a trio of fomorians (one of each type). Or a Hell Hound. Or from the standard rulebook, a dragon.

Mundane opponents will do the trick. A pack of 20 bandits, enchanted to fight till death. Or a dozen or so saxons, two against each player knight provide a good fight. (Putting 3 saxons against each player is also possible, but only if you really want to wipe out the group.)
A group of saxons led by a berserker, so berserker is always facing just one opponent, while the other saxons keep the others at bay...

One of my favourite encounters is a modified version of the Medbourne one: in round one, the players face one bandit each. The next round, another joins the fray. The third round, another - so by now, players will be facing from 0-3 peasants each.
Then in the next round, a mounted sergeant joins each PC (so a pc may now be facing a mounted opponent and up to 2 bandits; if any players had 3 bandits when the sergent attacks, the 3rd bandit spends the turn moving to another pc).

Note: this fight takes place in an area of very rocky, cracked ground, where horses camn move only at a careful walk. Any faster requires a horse DEX roll each turn to avoid a fall (at a penalty if running).

Finally, the Fiend, Gorboduc enters the fray - picking an opponent who has least opponents, preferring mounted targets.
He is on foot (horses are frightened of him), so he uses Greatspear 19, 9d6 damage.
If that is broken, he switches to mace (19 skill, 9d6 +1d6 v mail armour)
And if that is broken, he switches to his two spiked gauntlets (skill 15x2 attacks, always against the same target, Damage 5d6, +1d6 v mail).
His armour: 17 points, +6 when using mace (he has a heavily reinforced left arm as a shield).
His achilles heel is his DEX - a hit of 17 damage or more has a very good chance of knocking him down (DEX 5 IIRC). Fights with a fiend often go like this:

Rd 1: Player hits Fiend, fiend falls over
Rd 2-5: Fiend tries to get up, player hits him, kckocks him over.
Rd 6: Fiend hits player - player is out for the count.
Fiend-inflicted criticals are a sight to behold...
An important thing when facign a fiend, is to make sure players realise how much damage he does. When the fiend misses, have him strike a tree and chop it in half, or cleave a boulder in two with a mighty crash, or whatever. If they are lucky, they'll get through the fight without taking a hit from him - but if they know just how much damage they could take, it'll make that fight much more tense.

After a fight like this, the players will probably not think pendragon is easy - they may even have to run away.

Just some ideas to hopefully help out :)

Also, don't forget the npc knights in the back of the main rulebook. They are pretty damn tough.

Thanks for the reply, Darren. That does reassure me. I've edited my original post to add in the best weapon scores of my PKs.


In fact, the Pendragon combat mechanics tend to disable characters much more often than kill them. It's should have a fairly low death rate, but still manages to feel gritty.

This is something I've found so far. A lot of my PKs will take fair amounts of damage but rarely enough to put them down. I realise having 6 PKs does make them quite a potent bunch and I tend to match my own adventures accordingly. I'm still in early Uther phase so, to keep to the non magical nature of the period, they usually just fight human or humanoid foes. Come later on I'll be throwing all sorts of weird things at them (The Black Annis just for starters). I stick to the 3 PKs per humanoid opponent (or 2 if on horseback) so that it's not a complete walkover. Of course, this is one of the reasons I modded the All Out Attack option (Berserk) because when they all used that the were virtually unstoppable. Also, my PKs aren't dumb. When they fight like this, if one of them takes a bad hit, he will withdraw while another PK takes his place. When against a single foe I allow them this on a simple DEX check.

Re Only Glory bonus points being able to break racial maximums. I'm not sure this is the canon rule now. I'm certain Greg said, either on this forum, or on his website, that he now thought it ok for any training (be it winter of glory based) to increase stats with no restriction. I'll try and hunt that thread down. In the meantime, apologies if I'm misquoting you, Greg.

One thing I do like about Pendragon combat is that it's so unpredictable. A few bad rolls against a peasant with a knife could kill you. I do think my PKs have been lucky but when that luck runs out, I'm sure I could lose 3 or more of them in one day.

Thanks for the reply, Darren. That does reassure me. I've edited my original post to add in the best weapon scores of my PKs.

Having seen those, it confirms my original feeling - your characters are definitely not too tough.
One of my two groups has a character with 40 hit points, SIZ 19, 7d6 damage, and sword skill of 24 - and still, he gets battered quite a lot. (He did also have an honour of 21, but falling in love with Ygraine, and being misled by Merlin, has scuppered that.)


I'm still in early Uther phase so, to keep to the non magical nature of the period, they usually just fight human or humanoid foes. Come later on I'll be throwing all sorts of weird things at them (The Black Annis just for starters).

Bear in mind, magical stuff is still around in the Uther phase - see that early adventure with merlin and the three headed giant.

Later phases, Britain enters the Enchantment - this doesn't mean that magical creatures become more common. It means that spiritual- and chivalry-focused adventures become more common. It means that players face spiritual challenges, like having to use Justice or Energetic or Merciful to enter strange realms, stay conscious when faeries dance nearby, or prove their compassionate nature to a faerie enchantress.
magical beasties are perfectly appropriate for Uther and Anarchy phases - but they tend to be more brutish, bestial, monstrous, evil - and also restricted to deep forests, remote mountains, etc. (Places knights often go on quests.)

The later phases means enchanted creatures often come out in the open, even to a lord's court, but are more human or prettier, and better-mannered.


Also, my PKs aren't dumb. When they fight like this, if one of them takes a bad hit, he will withdraw while another PK takes his place. When against a single foe I allow them this on a simple DEX check.

This may be one of your problems. Disengaging from combat, by the rules, is very tricky. See the section on Evasion. You either allow your opponent a free attack (and if knocked down, you don't get away), or oppose your Dex or horsemanship against their weapon skill.
Now, if a knight is facing an opponent, and wants to disengage, and another player knight charges in to help him, the opponent might ignore the diengaging knight (not wanting to face two opponents) so he gets out freely. But, that opponent may take a risk and concentrate on the retreating knight or split his skill - part against the incoming knight, part against the disengaging knight... .

if you allow players to disengage relatively freely whenever they are disarmed or knocked over, you *are* making things to easy for them. Be brutal. :)


Re Only Glory bonus points being able to break racial maximums. I'm not sure this is the canon rule now. I'm certain Greg said, either on this forum, or on his website, that he now thought it ok for any training (be it winter of glory based) to increase stats with no restriction. I'll try and hunt that thread down. In the meantime, apologies if I'm misquoting you, Greg.

I'm sure you are misremembering. It was canon in earlier editions. KAP5 introduced an ambiguity about this, and Greg and the errata have both confirmed that the ambiguity is incorrect - only glory can be used to break racial maximums. (Exception: experience checks can increase something above maximum, but you need to roll a d20.)


One thing I do like about Pendragon combat is that it's so unpredictable. A few bad rolls against a peasant with a knife could kill you. I do think my PKs have been lucky but when that luck runs out, I'm sure I could lose 3 or more of them in one day.

I've had fights where players have been soundly defeated by bandits, when things just haven't gone their way, so yes it can happen. It is one of the fun things about the game.

Most of my guys have tended to load CON and SIZ (and I apply a -1 APP & DEX penalty for each point of additional SIZ)

I think this bit is overly harsh. That's a net negative -1 for spending a winter season (or a precious glory point) on bulking up.

I also don't think you're guys are especially tough individually although having numbers on their side will be a big help. I have 3 PKs in my game - they are a few years further along in the chronology admittedly (early 500s), but they all have at least 5d6 damage, better weapon skills and the armour of honour. They can handle themselves pretty well against conventional foes, but multiple opponents cause them problems, they still fared badly in their first outing with the new Battle system and Black Annis has just creamed them (two plus an NPK on death's door and the third likely to go down hard unless he gets lucky with a critical when we pick up the fight next time).

Regards
Luke

From a game point of view, you're right. It is a net negative. However, from a non game point of view I think it makes sense; if you're fatter, you should be less nimble. I tend to view CON as an indicator of muscle mass, with SIZ related more to simple bulk. Also, I wanted to make a SIZ boost slightly less appealing because SIZ is hands down the best stat to load. It increases HPs and Damage, whereas STR and CON affect only one or the other. The knights I listed above have been running without this rule in place and you can see how neglected their STR stat is compared to CON and SIZ. This just feels wrong to me. These are knights we're talking about.

Darren - I found the comment by Greg.

It's in this thread (http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=374.0). Read Greg's 1st and 2nd reply (especially the 2nd). Perhaps I am misinterpreting the intent, but if there are no racial maximums then what is the barrier against normal winter phase increases?

Wouldn't STR be muscle mass and SIZ just be overall mass? CON is more fitness and general health.

oh dear, what's my mind doing, yes of course. For CON read STR - it's been a long day ::)

oh dear, what's my mind doing, yes of course. For CON read STR - it's been a long day ::)


I figured....I can see producing some sort of DEX versus SIZ limit (like both can't be over 15 or something). But losing both APP and DEX for every added point of SIZ seems a bit harsh. YMMV

I figured....I can see producing some sort of DEX versus SIZ limit (like both can't be over 15 or something). But losing both APP and DEX for every added point of SIZ seems a bit harsh. YMMV



It probably would be harsh if all stats were equal, but in KAP that isn't the case.

APP has no direct function other than determining the number of distinctive features. While APP and distinctive features should (and hopefully, would) have an effect on a character, that is all left to roleplaying. (I've been thinking of having APP modify courtly skills).

DEX has some value. It is used to to keep standing when hit by a strong blow, is (infrequently) used to dodge, has some benefit for things like climbing, and a modest effect on MOVE rate.

On the other hand SIZ is one of the most powerful stats in the game. It factors into Hit Points, Knockdown, and Damage Dice.

So perhaps a net -1 makes sense.

Darren - I found the comment by Greg.

It's in this thread (http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=374.0). Read Greg's 1st and 2nd reply (especially the 2nd). Perhaps I am misinterpreting the intent, but if there are no racial maximums then what is the barrier against normal winter phase increases?


That section is specifically about the ambiguity I mentioned.
KAP 5 introduced a statement that says: Glory cannot be used to raise stats above maximum, or SIZ after age 21. This is not about normal winter training.

By errataing this statement, Greg returns the rules to their KAP 3/4 state which is this:

1) With annual training, You can increase skills, traits, passions and stats up to their maximum (except for SIZ which cannot increase after age 21)
2) With glory, there are no limits at increases at all.

The last line of that errat reads, "In BoK&L, racial maximums are eliminated." and should be understood to mean: "In BoK&L, racial maximums are eliminated for Glory bonuses."

Most of my guys have tended to load CON and SIZ (and I apply a -1 APP & DEX penalty for each point of additional SIZ)

Whoa! I missed this. I agree with Luke - I don't think there is any need for this. The rules state you can't raise SIZ above age 21, except by spending glory on it, which is enough for me.

Thanks for the clarification, Darren.
With regard to SIZ not increasing after age 21. I was not overly keen on that. However, I didn't change it until I read the errata update.


The Pot Belly in Pendragon
Also, in response to several comments from players that certainly they have gotten bigger since age 21! Furthermore, having seen many sets of armor that were shaped to their owners I can attest that pot bellies were pretty popular with the armored crowd. So maybe we want to say that each point of SIZ is simply a SIZ of fat, and subtracts a point from APP.

I found this more realistic but for me the loss of 1 APP was not sufficient penalty to counterbalance additional SIZ increases. Perhaps "penalty" is the wrong word though - I just wanted my players to have a slightly tougher choice to make when altering their characters in such a way. The ruling I use is slightly more complex than just a minus to APP &DEX; I allow post 21 SIZ increases, but I have the character list a distinguishing feature to reflect the change. On the first increase they suffer -1 APP (but no DEX) and list the distinguishing feature as "Filled out". On the second they suffer -1 APP & DEX and change that to "Heavy" on the 3rd this becomes "Overweight" and on the 4th (the highest I allow) it becomes "Obese". By adding a descriptive element to the change I find they are far more reluctant to go beyond 1 or at max 2 changes due to the negative images it conjures; far more so than if it were just a simple minus to APP. My guys do actually use APP a lot (I use it as a major component in how my slightly tweaked attraction rules work) but to begin with it was not enough to dissuade them from giving up the odd point or two in return for SIZ.

By adding a descriptive element to the change I find they are far more reluctant to go beyond 1 or at max 2 changes due to the negative images it conjures; far more so than if it were just a simple minus to APP.


You may also consider Indulgence or Worldly checks.

There is plenty of possible ramifications of combat in Pendragon. Being dead is only one of them. Having two battles in the same year is one way of dealing with pcs. In one memorable year, the pcs had problems in a battle early in the year. Most had damage, some significant, although none were killed. Then after only a few weeks, the Earl asked for knights for an additional service. One knight, a notable pagan, had healed completely, while most Christians still had some damage. The roleplaying of a few to excuse themselves were amusing, while others played up their loyalty to the death of their knight.

The first battle was not too bad, but it set the stage for the second in which most players started with some damage (and one less than half his hit points). The squire pool was used by many that night...

Bob

Thanks for the clarification, Darren.
With regard to SIZ not increasing after age 21. I was not overly keen on that. However, I didn't change it until I read the errata update.


The Pot Belly in Pendragon
Also, in response to several comments from players that certainly they have gotten bigger since age 21! Furthermore, having seen many sets of armor that were shaped to their owners I can attest that pot bellies were pretty popular with the armored crowd. So maybe we want to say that each point of SIZ is simply a SIZ of fat, and subtracts a point from APP.

I found this more realistic but for me the loss of 1 APP was not sufficient penalty to counterbalance additional SIZ increases. Perhaps "penalty" is the wrong word though - I just wanted my players to have a slightly tougher choice to make when altering their characters in such a way. The ruling I use is slightly more complex than just a minus to APP &DEX; I allow post 21 SIZ increases, but I have the character list a distinguishing feature to reflect the change. On the first increase they suffer -1 APP (but no DEX) and list the distinguishing feature as "Filled out". On the second they suffer -1 APP & DEX and change that to "Heavy" on the 3rd this becomes "Overweight" and on the 4th (the highest I allow) it becomes "Obese". By adding a descriptive element to the change I find they are far more reluctant to go beyond 1 or at max 2 changes due to the negative images it conjures; far more so than if it were just a simple minus to APP. My guys do actually use APP a lot (I use it as a major component in how my slightly tweaked attraction rules work) but to begin with it was not enough to dissuade them from giving up the odd point or two in return for SIZ.



That does sound like an interesting approach, and I can see why people would be reluctant to take more than one or two steps :)
I hope you aren't applying those effects if they use glory to buy it!

An important thing when facign a fiend, is to make sure players realise how much damage he does. When the fiend misses, have him strike a tree and chop it in half, or cleave a boulder in two with a mighty crash, or whatever.

I love this Role Playing trick, thanks :-)