Hello to everyone!

I am back to ask your help.
I've read from the missing glory tables that if you confront against an inferior foe, like sergeants or the like, the glory is

"Glory = total of all the skills used by an average enemy (Axe, Lance, Riding, etc.)."

I then went to check the Pict Warrior from KAP 5

PICT WARRIOR
SIZ 8, DEX 14, STR 11, CON 11, APP 7; Move 4; Armor 3*; Unconscious 5; Major Wound 11; Knockdown 8; Hit Points 19; Healing Rate 2; Damage 3d6.
Combat Skills: Great Axe 15 (+1d6, +2d6 vs. shield), Great Spear 14, Javelin 18.
Skills: Awareness 18, First Aid 15, Hunting 18, Faerie Lore 15.
Traits: Valorous 16.
Passions: Honor 12; Love (Goddess) 12.

Making the sums: Great Axe 15 + Great Spear 14 + Javelin 18 = 47

So the glory in the end gained if my Players Knights win the battle should be 47 for each pict warrior beaten?
If they confront against a superior force, 2:1 number of opponents, they will get 1.5x47= 70 Glory points for each pict beaten?

Do I miss something important?

One thing: when you are in man-to-man combat (not in a battle), ignore those multiples. You simply get the glory for each opponent you defeat. If picts are woth 47 glory, you get 94 glory for defeating two of them.

That method is only one of several methods of calculating glory for opponents.
In the missing glory table, picts are worth 10 or 20 glory (can't remember), saxons 35, and ordinary knights 50. Bandits = 5 or 10.

I don't get adding the weapon skills together when most enemies use only one weapon skill during the fight. A Saxon with Great Spear 20 and Great Axe 20 is not twice as dangerous as one with just Great Spear 20.

I like the idea of using the best weapon skill (plus expected modifiers, e.g. height advantage or nullifying a height advantage), the expected damage on a hit, and armor.

different weapon skills are added in only if they are used.
Lance and sword, for instance
Bo and Spear
Tooth and Nail



I don't get adding the weapon skills together when most enemies use only one weapon skill during the fight. A Saxon with Great Spear 20 and Great Axe 20 is not twice as dangerous as one with just Great Spear 20.

I like the idea of using the best weapon skill (plus expected modifiers, e.g. height advantage or nullifying a height advantage), the expected damage on a hit, and armor.

Thanks! It's clearer now!

different weapon skills are added in only if they are used.



So you get more glory if you dont kill a knight during the lance charge but allow him to draw his sword (and use it)?
Bit weird...

fg,
Thijs

So you get more glory if you dont kill a knight during the lance charge but allow him to draw his sword (and use it)?
Bit weird...


You can maybe handwave it that the longer fight makes a more glorious story than some mook who got unhorsed at the first pass?

Me, I am using the Glory rewards in 4th edition. That seems to work for me. One of the things I dislike in this new formula is that it by no means is fair when skill is 20+. If I recall correctly, a knight on horseback adds his Horsemanship to the glory, too. Hence a young knight with Horsemanship 15 and Sword 15, is just as glorious to defeat than a truly extraordinary knight with sword 30 on foot. This feels wrong to me. Or for that matter, three bandits with spear 10.

I actually do like the idea of using the battle odds multipliers to glory rewards from a fight. In Pendragon, being outnumbered is much more murderous than in D&D for example. Giving 1.5 times the glory doesn't seem a bad thing to compensate the players for a tougher fight. After all, getting jumped twice in separate occasions by an equal number of bandits is merely an annoyance, while getting twice the number of bandits on you might actually be a threat.

Hence a young knight with Horsemanship 15 and Sword 15, is just as glorious to defeat than a truly extraordinary knight with sword 30 on foot. This feels wrong to me.It *is* wrong. You add 1% of the glory of your opponent to these totals - so glory for defeating the young knight will be in the 40-50 range if you count horsemanship as a combat skill (not sure that this is RAW, but it seems like a reasonable houserule if not), whereas glory for defeating the extraordinary (at least 16k glory per the RAW) knight on foot would be 190+.


Or for that matter, three bandits with spear 10.How about 4-5 bandits? Or nineteen?

Regards
Luke

So you get more glory if you dont kill a knight during the lance charge but allow him to draw his sword (and use it)?
Bit weird...


One good hit with one weapon ... maybe it was just dumb luck.

Beat someone twice in a row with two different weapons ... not only are you definitely better than your foe, you were confident enough in your superiority to put it to the test when he'd already lost. Much more impressive.

It *is* wrong. You add 1% of the glory of your opponent to these totals


I stand corrected. Adjusted by Glory, those numbers make much more sense. Although I would prefer some way to put in the armor's influence, too. A knight without armor is much less of an opponent than when he is wearing full plate. Not sure if this is something that the medieval mindset would bother with, though... Would it matter that you beat Sir Gawaine while he was fighting at a disadvantage without armor? Your honor might suffer a bit, but a victory is a victory?

In my opinion you should get glory based solely upon how glorious your opponent is, not how much of a combat machine (of course combat machines are more likely to be glorious).
Most observers wouldnt know the difference between a bandit with skill 5 or skill 20, just that it's a bandit (hence worth 10 glory). Hence I like the 4th edition glory more, especially for knightly opponents...

fg,
Thijs

In my opinion you should get glory based solely upon how glorious your opponent is, not how much of a combat machine (of course combat machines are more likely to be glorious).
Most observers wouldnt know the difference between a bandit with skill 5 or skill 20, just that it's a bandit (hence worth 10 glory). Hence I like the 4th edition glory more, especially for knightly opponents...

fg,
Thijs


Thats what the +1% of the opponent7s glory total takes care of.

A bandit with a 25 skill might be tough, but a knight with a 15 skill and 3500, glory is worth twice as much.

Thats what the +1% of the opponent7s glory total takes care of.

A bandit with a 25 skill might be tough, but a knight with a 15 skill and 3500, glory is worth twice as much.


But the 15 skill glory bonus does not take into account his 25 size, 8D6 damage and 22 armor...
As you get same amount of glory for 15 skill and 3500 glory knight with 2D6 damage, no armor and size 7...
Why only bonus for skill and not for other things?
A fresh knight (1000 glory) and 10 sword with 18 size, 6D6 damage and 20 armor, gives you 20 glory, just as much as a skill 20 unarmoured bandit with a dagger doing 2D6 damage... eh.... see my problem?

fg,
Thijs

Why only bonus for skill and not for other things?


If you ask me it's an 80/20 solution - skill is a reasonable proxy for those other things whilst being simple to track and apply.

Regards
Luke

As you may have noticed, I like to tinker with formulas. I base my glory rewards mainly on 4th ed, but tend to apply a rule of thumb with opponents as well.

Base Glory: 10 (Or skill if you want to plug that in?)
-5 if weak opponent (scrawny bandit)
-9 if feeble opponent (old/crippled bandit)
+10 if big/scary (e.g. a Saxon raider)
+10 if on horseback
+10 if in metal armor (e.g. a sergeant = 10+10+10 = 30)
+2% of Glory

Knight with 1000 Glory on horseback is 10+10+10+20 = 50 Glory (5th ed: 15 Sword + 10 Lance + 10 Horsemanship + 10 Glory = 45)
Knight with 3000 Glory (already big/scary by above definition): 100 Glory (5th ed: 20 + 15 + 15 + 30 = 80)
Knight with 5500 Glory: 150 Glory (5th ed: 22 + 20 + 18 + 55 = 115)
Knight with 8000 Glory: 200 Glory (5th ed: 24 + 22 + 20 + 80 = 146)
Knight with 10500 Glory: 250 Glory (5th ed: 27 + 23 + 20 + 105 = 175)

But like I said in the beginning, I tend to go with 4th Ed Glory rewards for knights by Glory and eyeball the number. "OK, he is an ordinary knight, but he is an experienced veteran... 75 sounds about right." It seems to work and is quick to apply.

But the 15 skill glory bonus does not take into account his 25 size, 8D6 damage and 22 armor...
As you get same amount of glory for 15 skill and 3500 glory knight with 2D6 damage, no armor and size 7...
Why only bonus for skill and not for other things?
A fresh knight (1000 glory) and 10 sword with 18 size, 6D6 damage and 20 armor, gives you 20 glory, just as much as a skill 20 unarmoured bandit with a dagger doing 2D6 damage... eh.... see my problem?

I see your point, but I7m not sure if it is a problem per say. The glory awards do not factor in a lot of things that could affect the outcome of the battle, or even things that would make a battle look more impressive and thus probably be more glorius.

IMO that is what GMs are for.

Rather than fixed values. I see the glory awards are a "typical" award for that sort of deed. Actual awards could and probably should be tailored a bit to fit the situation and persons invloved.








fg,
Thijs



[/quote]

But the 15 skill glory bonus does not take into account his 25 size, 8D6 damage and 22 armor...
As you get same amount of glory for 15 skill and 3500 glory knight with 2D6 damage, no armor and size 7...
Why only bonus for skill and not for other things?

Because everything else is just stuff. Anyone can have stuff, anyone can be big--these are just accidents of birth (or benefits of destiny, if you will).

Skill proves itself--lack provides its own consequences.


A fresh knight (1000 glory) and 10 sword with 18 size, 6D6 damage and 20 armor, gives you 20 glory, just as much as a skill 20 unarmoured bandit with a dagger doing 2D6 damage... eh.... see my problem?
[/quote]

It is not such a problem for us normal folks without a mastery over quick math. :-)

I still use KAP5.1, page 220; largely the same as KAP4