Though I am passionate about my Arthuriana, I also admit to a fondness (some have the ill manners to name it "obsession") with the Norman/Angevin period of British History. Couple this with my possession of "Lionheart" from Columbia Games as well as numerous references on British folktales and legends, and the result was probably inevitable: Pendradon run during an Historical period. Basically I had the players generate young knights who served Richard in 1190. He gave them a commission to investigate tales of pagan treasures, Roman and viking hoardes and etc. The pks travelled around England attempting to gather these sources of wealth to help fund the Crusade. It was interesting and really quite eerie, though they never actually encountered any supernatural activity.

Then there was the short lived "Anarchy" campaign set during the reign of Stephen of Blois. , Six or so sessions before redeployment fractured the group (mostly Coast Guard, you see). But Geoffrey de Mandeville is still my favourite of all NPCs I've ever run!

Anyone else ever done anything similar?

My two favourite periods to game in, too.

Though I haven't actually used Pendragon for anything other than it's intended purposes. For those other games, I've used Chivalry & Sorcery, Harn, and even Fate. Chronica Feudalis is a relatively new game that looks promising too.

Back to Pendragon. One of my friends did run a game set in the universe of Dune using Pendragon. That was a surprise, and quite fun. Terrifying combat though...

I agree that Pendragon is good for a generalized medieval history campaign, especially with it's ability to run battles and large land holdings.

I've always thought it would make a great Mythic Greece type game too. I can imagine a GPC type Trojan war...etc.

I agree that Pendragon is good for a generalized medieval history campaign, especially with it's ability to run battles and large land holdings.

I've always thought it would make a great Mythic Greece type game too. I can imagine a GPC type Trojan war...etc.




Me too.
Write it up!!

--Greg

I've always thought it would make a great Mythic Greece type game too. I can imagine a GPC type Trojan war...etc.


Brilliant! What a great idea. Unfortunately (or fortunately), I'm committed to the GPC for some time to come and won't start anything new for a long while.

It is a game I would buy, but I can't seem myself writing it. Who knows, maybe I'll get the bug.

I admit that a friend of mine and I discussed writing a Japanese adaptation for Pendragon. We thought the traits and passions mechanic admirably suited the Samurai class. Combat without shields proved fast and amazingly brutal! Real Life, however, interfered and kept us from completing the adaptation. I might pursue it again, though.....

I'll second the Trojan War one - there are detailed genealogies of mythical heroes, from Prometheus to the return of the descendants of Heracles, and someone with a bit of time (not me!) could fiddle this into a year by year campaign guide, much like GPC.

Another era that I think would be very cool would be the Three Kingdoms in China - I'm reading the Romance now and there seems to be heaps of stuff going on, epic dynastic warfare, interesting moral decisions... very Pendragony!

Couple this with my possession of "Lionheart" from Columbia Games as well as numerous references on British folktales and legends, and the result was probably inevitable: Pendradon run during an Historical period.

Anyone else ever done anything similar?


Is it the PC Game with nearly every human possesed by some kind of ghost and some areas of medieval europe are hit by earth quakes or other katasprophies?
Guess so and I have to say either: what a great setting.

Thought about combining the "classic" Pendragon rules with the rules for Ghosts (taken from the adv. of 'castle wake') and getting some basic concept for a PNP 'Lionheart' game.
Until now the idea was pushed aside by other projects... :(

But nice to hear of other gamers with similar interests!

I admit that a friend of mine and I discussed writing a Japanese adaptation for Pendragon.


I have commissioned a Japanese game designer friend of mine to write a game of Japanese legend, based on the KAP system. It will have a big advantage--a native speaker! Apparently other games have missed significant material.

Also, a Charlemagne based game in in the works.

I will make announcements when there is a contract.

Another era that I think would be very cool would be the Three Kingdoms in China - I'm reading the Romance now and there seems to be heaps of stuff going on, epic dynastic warfare, interesting moral decisions... very Pendragony!


Yes. The epic called The Water Margin actually dwarfs the entire Arthurian Saga for volume, and if full of fascinating characters. Unlike Arthuriana, for which Chivalry is the epitome of good action, it has several conflicting value systems at work at once.

I would love to see an official PenDragon Pass game, although things may be overcomplicated for Glorantha already with 2 games set in different Ages. Perhaps, one could be done for the West? as a tightly focused game?

If you didn't know about it, the Song of Arda is a fan made Pendragon engined Middle Earth game that remains incomplete. There is a lot of love within its pages. It is just a shame, that it is tied to a complicated licence. I think ME is very well matched to Pendragon.

The other thought I have, is a game set around Charlemagne. Who knows, you may even get a GPC type of campaign out of it too.

Just one final thought.

ReConquista Spain.

The Reconquista covered many years and involved both warfare and political intrigue. Given the mix of cultures, it would make for an interesting game.

Factors against this type of game, would be the inherent genocide and anti semitic culminating in the expulsion of all moors and Jews from Spain.

Alternatively, fast forward a little, and we have the Conquest of New Spain. Again genocide abounds.

The crusades would also work well, I think. From a western point of view, the feel of the time line would be similar to GPC. There is a period of conquest, some stability and then the eventual downfall of the crusader states--much like the eventual downfall of Camelot and takeover by the Saxons.

Obviously, you could play it from either side too.

NT

I would love to see an official PenDragon Pass game, although things may be overcomplicated for Glorantha already with 2 games set in different Ages. Perhaps, one could be done for the West? as a tightly focused game?


Glorantha has actually been explored, so far, with three RPGs, a set of board games and a computer game.
So, another one, per se, is no problem



If you didn't know about it, the Song of Arda is a fan made Pendragon engined Middle Earth game that remains incomplete. There is a lot of love within its pages. It is just a shame, that it is tied to a complicated licence. I think ME is very well matched to Pendragon.


Yep

ReConquista Spain.


Colorful, yes.
but where is the romance, the chivalry? One El Cid does not a genera make.
and as soon as we think Spain, who pops up but Don Quixote?

Perhaps someone with proper knowledge can inform me otherwise!
Please



Alternatively, fast forward a little, and we have the Conquest of New Spain. Again genocide abounds.


I once rough designed a game of evil magic: inquisition versus Huitzapotli.
Torture and murder all around!
I gave it up pretty quickly.

The crusades would also work well, I think. From a western point of view, the feel of the time line would be similar to GPC. There is a period of conquest, some stability and then the eventual downfall of the crusader states--much like the eventual downfall of Camelot and takeover by the Saxons.

Obviously, you could play it from either side too.



I look forward to someone writing up a KAP entirely historical supplement.

I have a personal dislike of the Crusades as a setting because it is historical, and thus brutal with very, very little to redeem anyone. If everyone had acted as nobly as Saladin, well, then it'd be quite different.

Interestingly, in all the Arthurian literature that I've read I have encountered only one mention of Crusades, and that is just in passing "while on a crusade" type of comment. Considering the time period in which they were largely created, and that they largely written by church men, I find this omission even more astonishing than the lack of women knights.

Interestingly, in all the Arthurian literature that I've read I have encountered only one mention of Crusades, and that is just in passing "while on a crusade" type of comment. Considering the time period in which they were largely created, and that they largely written by church men, I find this omission even more astonishing than the lack of women knights.


An interesting observation, but Malory and Wolfram von Eschenbach were both knights. I don't know about Chretien de Troyes. Geoffrey of Monmoth was a cleric. Geoffrey seems the easiest to explain in terms of excluding the Crusades. He probably knew that the Crusades happened well after his 'history'.

I have something of a passion for the first and third crusades. Following the conquest of Rome and Arthur's assumption of the title "emperor" my PKs decided to visit the Holy Land. One of the PKs had achieved the rank of Duke (we had been playing Pendragon since the 1st ed came out and were currently on 4th!) of Pomitaine and he received Arthur's blessing to free the Holy City. The army landed in Alexandria, were poorly received and ended up capturing and sacking the city. This became their base of operations. After about another three months of play (with sessions once or twice a week) they actually stormed Jerusalem. (They had discovered a cross made of the nails from Christ's hands and used it to whip the army into a frenzy AND a christian within the city had been bribed to open a postern). I admit to being somewhat appalled at the bloodshed that ensued...quite a few Cruel checks were earned. The erstwhile Duke of Pomitaine ended up as the Prince of Antioch with the other PKs as powerful land owners in Outremer. The King of Jerusalem was an NPC appointed by Arthur based quite closely on the historic Baldwin III. Ties to family drew most of the PKs home within 4 or 5 years of the conquest and we resumed the Arthurian timeline. The Duke of Pomitaine was made a Round Table Knight for giving the Holy City into Arthur's hands.

and as soon as we think Spain, who pops up but Don Quixote?

Perhaps someone with proper knowledge can inform me otherwise!
Please

What do you think Don Quixote was parodying? There was a lively tradition of Spanish chivalric romance during the late medieval/early modern period (though admittedly the three most prominent parodied works--Tirant lo Blanc, Orlando Furioso, and Amadis of Gaul--don't involve the Reconquista, and two of them were actually translated from other languages). There were also many poems about El Cid, written in many different times and places across Christian Spain. But yes, with the possible exceptions of El Cid and maybe the Song of Roland, there's nothing that really rivals the scope of the Matter of Britain.

As for the crusades, I can think of at least two: Mallory has the last surviving knights of the Round Table go on crusade, of course, and in the Alliterative Morte Arthure, Arthur promises to go on crusade once he takes Rome and becomes Emperor (which in this version of the story he does not achieve):

"Senn graithe over the grete se with good men of armes
To revenge the Renk that on the Rood died!"

On something of a tangent: according to Helen Nicholson's Love, War, and the Grail, holy war was present in the form of wars against the Saxons in Monmouth and his successors. In the Livre d'Artus, the war against the pagan Saxons "is most emphatically a holy war: in fact, it is a crusade, for the Christian knights fight for love of God and to save their souls to aid in upholding holy Christianity and exalt the love of God; and they call on the Holy Sepulchre to aid them in their fight, as the crusaders did." Furthermore, some manuscripts of Les Prophecies de Merlin "describe Arthur financing a crusade for the assistance of Jerusalem. The crusade is also used as a means of forcing political rivals to leave the country. A later redaction of the prose Tristan included a sequence where King Mark tries to send Tristan to Jerusalem on crusade, and claims to be about to go on crusade himself. The Latin De ortu Walwanii . . . has the young Gawain going on a rescue-mission to the land of Jerusalem, in imitation of the crusade of Richard the Lionheart." In any case, these are exceptions, and crusading and holy war weren't a big part of the Matter of Britain.

I myself am slowly, slowly hammering away at incorporating the Baltic Crusades and the Teutonic Order into the GPC; historically, it was popular with English knights, especially during lulls in the Hundred Years War. While the Order has a modern reputation for cruelty and brutality (which is at once both entirely deserved and somewhat exaggerated), they were very much an important part of the pageantry, piety, and prowess of medieval chivalry, and I hope I can make them fit in somewhat naturally.

E: Oh, man, this from Wikipedia:

After the French Revolution [Don Quixote] was popular in part due to its central ethic that individuals can be right while society is quite wrong and seen as disenchanting—not comic at all.
:(

Just putting in an additional vote for the Mythic Greek and Samurai settings. When I've asked friends about games which are as good as Pendragon, FGU's Bushido has come up more than once, so combining the mythic Japanese background with the Pendragon rules (a project which is already in progress I see) seems like an ideal combo.

The mythic Norse/Viking setting would also be a good alternative setting for Pendragon. Land of Giants was an excellent supplement for the old 4th edition, and I've always liked the atmosphere of the Vikings boxed set which Greg put together for the Runequest 3. Is there enough material there for an independent campaign setting beyond that of an expansion to the Pendragon campaign?

Could the Pendragon system serve as the basis for a (dare I say it) more generic fantasy roleplaying game? I've read Greg's essay on the subject of genera vs generic, and I agree with most of the points made, but there's definitely potential I feel for an official 'generic' set of rules based on Pendragon, which offers GM's the tools to run Pendragon style games in world's of their own creation. There is so much untapped potential.

I think I still have the beginnings of a trojan war greek setting somewhere. A friend of mine started it, and left it to me because he was no longer interested in Pendragon at the time. Time to look in my archives....

I admit that a friend of mine and I discussed writing a Japanese adaptation for Pendragon. We thought the traits and passions mechanic admirably suited the Samurai class. Combat without shields proved fast and amazingly brutal! Real Life, however, interfered and kept us from completing the adaptation. I might pursue it again, though.....


Not only that, but the focus on court intrigue and etiquete and social relations that Pendragon so well enphasises, the dinasties and political marriages, all that stuff meshes so well with the Feudal Japan setting. Plus, I love combat in Pendragon because it's simple, elegant and brutal and the wounds rules are simple but beautifully detailed. I always tought that a Samurai game adapted from the Pendragon rules would be a perfact match. I hope all goes well with Nocturnal publishing and that this may some day become a reality.

As for the Trojan War, I'm not interested, even though I'm a sucker for greco-roman history, but those are much later periods. But I woudn't mind a bit to see isolated one-shot books based on Pendragon but using different settings become a reality.

Interestingly, in all the Arthurian literature that I've read I have encountered only one mention of Crusades, and that is just in passing "while on a crusade" type of comment. Considering the time period in which they were largely created, and that they largely written by church men, I find this omission even more astonishing than the lack of women knights.


Perhaps because it would have been a "catch-22" situation.

If Arthur had gone on a Crusade and done well, then it would have reflected poorly on the current leaders of Europe, their knights and the church.

On the other hand, if the Saracens had repulsed the legendary King Arthur, then what chance could a lesser king have?

Or it could just have been that Arthurian legends were the escapist fiction of their times and people wanted to hear/read about something more positive and exciting.

Hmmm, I hope it's not forbidden here to raise topics from the dead. On the one hand, I couldn't find anything like that in the rules. On the other hand, there is this troubling red text that tells me to open a new topic. But I don't think a few new ideas from me deserve a new topic if they fit here far better, so I am sorry if I am breaking the rules, yes?
Anyway, read this topic, and a couple more settings which I think could work well with the KAP system, both mechanically and thematically:

1. 11th-13th century Russia. Right between west and east, geographically and culturally. A time of great turmoil and change. The invading Mongols and Tatars serve the same purpose as the Saxons and the Picts. Playing Russian warrior nobles, boyars and bogatyrs, would allow for a game with just as much a focus on battle, honor, intrigue and survival as playing Arthurian knights. There is the conflict between Christianity and paganism, both Slavic and Mongol, and all the darkness of Russian folklore for your magician and faerie needs.

2. It will require building some (much?) of the rules system completely from scratch, but don't you think it could work to apply the system to "mafia tales" of 20th century America? Like, "The Godfather" and such. You have a car instead of a horse and a gun instead of a sword, you break the law instead of keeping it, and instead of conquering land you take over businesses. But the thematic core remains! Deadly combat, a strict code of honor to uphold, tragic romance, and the importance of the family over any single "hero". I guess that with little tweaking, you could achieve the same results with a game about the Japanese Yakuza (although I have to admit I don't know much about them besides what I saw in movies), or maybe even small street gangs like the ones that used to plague Los Angeles (or so I heard). Although the last idea is a bit dangerous, because part of the charm of the KAP system is it's focus on playing powerful nobility, and "small street gangs" are about the opposite of that. (option: cyberpunk?!)
hmmm. But if you are willing to try street gangs, I guess you could also try...

3. The Robin Hood tales. Okay, they are far, far smaller then the Arthurian tales, but I guess you could have some fun with them for a very short, very specific campaign.

....

Just ideas that floated around my head while reading this topic. Hope I didn't break any serious rule and that I managed to ignite someone's interest, at the very least.

Thank you and have a nice day.

a humble stranger

Having read Bernard Cornwell's current series, his "Alfred the Great" books, I've become convinced that the reign of Alfred and his successors would make for a campaign just as epic as that of Arthur in the GPC.

Start with the "Uther" period equivalent, when Britain is a mass of petty feuding Kingdoms all battling each other. Run long enough to let players get used to the whole setting, adn the status quo- it'll make what comes next seem all the more devastating.

Then comes the "Anarchy" period equivalent. The Danes invade, and over the years creep South and swallow the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms one by one. This should be played to give Saxon PCs an apocalypictic End Times Are Upon Us feeling. The pagan horde seems unstoppable. Finally, Wessex, the last bastion of Saxon power is overrun and all seems lost.

Cue the "Boy King" period, even though he was no boy by this point. Hiding in the marshes, Alfred manages to gather the scattered fragments of the army of Wessex and rise up to deliver a crushing defeat to the seemingly invincible Danes. After liberating Wessex, he then goes on to reorganise the army and build a series of forts that make it secure against further Danish threats.

And in later periods- Alfred didn't stop with Wessex. He and his heirs went on to liberate all the conquered Saxon territories under Danish rule, but not as Kingdoms. Instead of Wessex, Mercia, Northumbria- they were all combined into a single Kingdom called England.

Of course, unlike Pendragon there's no Camlann, no final battle where it all ends. This means that things will end on a high note- like finishing the GPC in the Romance or Tourney period. On the other hand, it could be anticlimatic and lead to a campaign just running to a slow halt rather than ending in a bang.

Having read Bernard Cornwell's current series, his "Alfred the Great" books, I've become convinced that the reign of Alfred and his successors would make for a campaign just as epic as that of Arthur in the GPC.

Start with the "Uther" period equivalent, when Britain is a mass of petty feuding Kingdoms all battling each other. Run long enough to let players get used to the whole setting, adn the status quo- it'll make what comes next seem all the more devastating.

Then comes the "Anarchy" period equivalent. The Danes invade, and over the years creep South and swallow the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms one by one. This should be played to give Saxon PCs an apocalypictic End Times Are Upon Us feeling. The pagan horde seems unstoppable. Finally, Wessex, the last bastion of Saxon power is overrun and all seems lost.

Cue the "Boy King" period, even though he was no boy by this point. Hiding in the marshes, Alfred manages to gather the scattered fragments of the army of Wessex and rise up to deliver a crushing defeat to the seemingly invincible Danes. After liberating Wessex, he then goes on to reorganise the army and build a series of forts that make it secure against further Danish threats.

And in later periods- Alfred didn't stop with Wessex. He and his heirs went on to liberate all the conquered Saxon territories under Danish rule, but not as Kingdoms. Instead of Wessex, Mercia, Northumbria- they were all combined into a single Kingdom called England.

Of course, unlike Pendragon there's no Camlann, no final battle where it all ends. This means that things will end on a high note- like finishing the GPC in the Romance or Tourney period. On the other hand, it could be anticlimatic and lead to a campaign just running to a slow halt rather than ending in a bang.


I'm reading that series now. Just started The Pale Horseman. They are actually better than the Sharpe series!

They would make an interesting alternative to the Arthur era and wouldn't require too much modification. Maybe I will move Ulveliak the Black and his warboat crew.....

I have commissioned a Japanese game designer friend of mine to write a game of Japanese legend, based on the KAP system. It will have a big advantage--a native speaker! Apparently other games have missed significant material.

Also, a Charlemagne based game in in the works.

I will make announcements when there is a contract.




WOOT! I look forward to both possibilities.

Hello All,

I actually incorporate the Byzantine Empire under Justinian and Theodora in my game. The players had become famous and powerful in the Isles and France, so they got to turn the Empire after Justinian and Theodora visited Arthur wondering what the hub-bub in the West was about. They should up in time to track down the source of the plague of 540 and prevent it's spread out of Egypt, which is where I placed the source. Needless to say, the Empire was quite pleased with this and they became somewhat friends to the Imperial Couple. They were closer to the charismatic Theodora more so than Justinian. Then, they heard of Theodora's ill health in 547 and went to see her. They find out she is wasting way[from cancer]. One of the players had a restorative potion that he had received years ago from an adventure with some fae and just kept it tucked away. He gave it to Theodora and she was, of course, cured. This as really endeared the Couple to the PCs. It has been an interesting three decades for the characters. The PCs also got the Catholic Church banned in Arthur's realms. Orthodox Christianity was its replacement. Since one of the PCs is the ruler of Anglia, there is a Primate of Norwich and All Britain. The funniest part is that the PCs are devout Pagans, but the have gotten Justinian to soften his view of Western Paganism.

Just thought I'd post a link to rpg.net where they have been discussing some interesting settings.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=543690

Anyone heard of this?

http://www.browserbeware.com/tastybacon.html


Though the great Caliphate has been dissolved and the unity of Iberia's Muslims lost, their power has not failed entirely. The cities have their armies, and at the heart of those armies are the noble orders of Muslim Knights. These Knights swear solemn oaths to revere Allah and his Prophet, to fight for the defense of the innocent, and to honor a strict code of ethics and morals in order to bring about peace and justice for their society. They are warriors and poets, and they are the last best hope of a people who do not see their doom before them.

I haven't heard of this or Polaris, for which this is an expansion, but it sounds really cool. A sales blurb hasn't grabbed me like that since I heard about Pendragon.



http://www.johnwickpresents.com/honor/

A samurai game that takes you up a level on the totem pole from Pendragon. You play as the officers and counselors of a daimyo, or feudal lord, and try and fight and backstab your way to some kind of happy ending. It's in some ways a very different game from Pendragon- more player control over the narrative, very theater nerd-ish, but a lot of fun.

Polaris, subtitled "Chivalric Tragedy At The Utmost North", is a storygame rather than a roleplaying game. Great little game if you want to get together with three of your closest friends and seek the ruin of a glistening world of ice and starlight. It doesn't work quite so well if you have more or less than four players, though. I don't know a thing about Thou Art But A Warrior, but I concur that it does sound juicy.

Blood And Honor is John Wick's samurai riff on his Houses Of The Blooded rules set. John has done the samurai thing before, a trifle of a game called Legend Of The Five Rings. You might have heard of it. I recommend Josh Roby's new HOTB supplement, Coronets But Never Crowns, which adds all sorts of layers to the game's intrigues. You might know Josh's work too, he wrote a wee steampunk space opera game called Full Light, Full Steam and was co-designer of the Smallville roleplaying game.

Polaris, subtitled "Chivalric Tragedy At The Utmost North", is a storygame rather than a roleplaying game. Great little game if you want to get together with three of your closest friends and seek the ruin of a glistening world of ice and starlight. It doesn't work quite so well if you have more or less than four players, though. I don't know a thing about Thou Art But A Warrior, but I concur that it does sound juicy.

Blood And Honor is John Wick's samurai riff on his Houses Of The Blooded rules set. John has done the samurai thing before, a trifle of a game called Legend Of The Five Rings. You might have heard of it. I recommend Josh Roby's new HOTB supplement, Coronets But Never Crowns, which adds all sorts of layers to the game's intrigues. You might know Josh's work too, he wrote a wee steampunk space opera game called Full Light, Full Steam and was co-designer of the Smallville roleplaying game.


Just today I thought about the fact that HoTB owes much (in the way of the game design) to the KAP. Are there some other games that we could say were inspired by KAP?

Just today I thought about the fact that HoTB owes much (in the way of the game design) to the KAP. Are there some other games that we could say were inspired by KAP?

There are several that the designers have admitted were inspired by KAP. Ars Magica, for example, and Aria: Canticle Of The Monomyth. The space opera Fading Suns was gothic KAP in space, written by a contributor to KAP and one of his former White Wolf colleagues. Outlaws Of The Water Margin was originally conceived as a KAP variant. I'm certain there are others.

I'll second the Trojan War one - there are detailed genealogies of mythical heroes, from Prometheus to the return of the descendants of Heracles, and someone with a bit of time (not me!) could fiddle this into a year by year campaign guide, much like GPC.

Another era that I think would be very cool would be the Three Kingdoms in China - I'm reading the Romance now and there seems to be heaps of stuff going on, epic dynastic warfare, interesting moral decisions... very Pendragony!


I love the 3 kingdoms!!!!!!!!! I wanna run Dien wei!!!!!!!!!!!!!