A question,

on pg 14 of the Book of Battle, it notes that battles are either won or lost, decisively, when battle intensity reaches either 0 or 40 for two rounds. In the battle size table starting battle intensity varies between 20 for smaller battles and 30 for huge battles. If the battle is lost at BI 40 for two rounds, that automatically puts the PC's side at a large disadvantage.

Should the BI value for 'losing' simply be 2x the BI for battle size? That would make sense.

I have found this too. Add battlefield modifiers and Unit intendity can be well into the 40's making it very tough for the PK's.

A question,
on pg 14 of the Book of Battle, it notes that battles are either won or lost, decisively, when battle intensity reaches either 0 or 40 for two rounds. In the battle size table starting battle intensity varies between 20 for smaller battles and 30 for huge battles. If the battle is lost at BI 40 for two rounds, that automatically puts the PC's side at a large disadvantage.

Should the BI value for 'losing' simply be 2x the BI for battle size? That would make sense.


I do not understand what you are asking.

Yes, in a battle things can be very, very tough for player knight units.
should it be otherwise?

Remember that at the start of a battle your unit is disengaged, which is a -20 for that round.

I do not understand what you are asking.




I'll re-phrase,

In terms of the overall battle intensity (not the unit intensity), the PC's side loses if the the battle intensity goes to 40 for two rounds. They win if it goes to zero for two rounds. For a small battle, the starting intensity is 20, so both sides are equidistant from winning or losing (20 points). If starting battle intensity for a huge battle is 30, the PCs side is only 10 points from losing but 30 from winning. They automatically start in retreat (I think, if I remember correctly). They do not start with an even chance of winning any battle larger than small. At the start of the battle, both sides should be even (before considering modifiers for terrain, battle events, being out-numbered etc).

One way to deal with the issue would be to simply make 'losing' battle intensity be 2x the starting intensity for the size of the battle.

NT

One way to deal with the issue would be to simply make 'losing' battle intensity be 2x the starting intensity for the size of the battle.
[/quote]

I've been grappling with this idea as well. I'm thinking that starting intensity +/-20 is the way to go. I've not play tested anything, though.

One way to deal with the issue would be to simply make 'losing' battle intensity be 2x the starting intensity for the size of the battle.


I've been grappling with this idea as well. I'm thinking that starting intensity +/-20 is the way to go. I've not play tested anything, though.
[/quote]

Sure. But one reason to leave it at 2x is that in a huge battle, the PCs would have less of an impact. That is, in a small battle, the PCs are important and can really drive things. In a large battle, 10 knights really don't have much of an effect in a mass of 10,000 so their victories have less of an impact.

It also takes longer to knock out a large army because it has more reserves etc...

NT

How often have you played using the batle system?

-g






I do not understand what you are asking.




I'll re-phrase,

In terms of the overall battle intensity (not the unit intensity), the PC's side loses if the the battle intensity goes to 40 for two rounds. They win if it goes to zero for two rounds. For a small battle, the starting intensity is 20, so both sides are equidistant from winning or losing (20 points). If starting battle intensity for a huge battle is 30, the PCs side is only 10 points from losing but 30 from winning. They automatically start in retreat (I think, if I remember correctly). They do not start with an even chance of winning any battle larger than small. At the start of the battle, both sides should be even (before considering modifiers for terrain, battle events, being out-numbered etc).

One way to deal with the issue would be to simply make 'losing' battle intensity be 2x the starting intensity for the size of the battle.

NT

I've been grappling with this idea as well. I'm thinking that starting intensity +/-20 is the way to go. I've not play tested anything, though.


I recommend you try it as it is, several times, before introducing solutions to problems that may not be there.

-g

I've only fooled around with the battle system once. But by definition, for a battle of medium size or larger the PC army starts in Retreat. On Pg 20, it notes that when battle intensity reaches 25 your army starts retreating. Battle intensity for a medium sized battle is 25. So the PC army retreats before the battle ever starts.

Perhaps my understanding of the intensity calculations is wrong.

I recommend you try it as it is, several times, before introducing solutions to problems that may not be there.


True, I haven't tried it yet for large battles. I've given it extensive play testing for smaller battles. The system for that size works very well as written; but, as Eothar states, the rules as written mean the army is in retreat at the start of a battle for anything larger. This just doesn't make sense.

I've only fooled around with the battle system once. But by definition, for a battle of medium size or larger the PC army starts in Retreat. On Pg 20, it notes that when battle intensity reaches 25 your army starts retreating. Battle intensity for a medium sized battle is 25. So the PC army retreats before the battle ever starts.

Perhaps my understanding of the intensity calculations is wrong.


I don't think so.
But for the First Charge, you have to use the First Charge chapter, and it doesn't say anything about that rule.

i will enter an errata to say such more clearly.

I've only fooled around with the battle system once. But by definition, for a battle of medium size or larger the PC army starts in Retreat. On Pg 20, it notes that when battle intensity reaches 25 your army starts retreating. Battle intensity for a medium sized battle is 25. So the PC army retreats before the battle ever starts.

Perhaps my understanding of the intensity calculations is wrong.


I don't think so.
But for the First Charge, you have to use the First Charge chapter, and it doesn't say anything about that rule.

i will enter an errata to say such more clearly.



OK but for a large or huge battle, in round 2 more likely than not, the pc's army will be in retreat.

The Battle intensity (BI) starts at 30 in Round 1. If the PCs Triumph, in the First Charge, in round 2 the BI is 28. Battle events might change this, but on average the Battle Events will be zero, and the PC army in retreat.

If the BI starts at 30, the NPC army need only increase BI by 10 points to reach a decisive victory. The PC army must reduce BI by 30 to achieve the same result.

NT

Since BI is reciprocal, what happens when PCs are on differnt sides in a large battle? For example, lets say the GM is winding down his campaign at Camlann. Some of the PCs are fighting for Arthur, but some are fighting for Mordred. Since it is a Huge Battle, the begnning BI is 30. But which side get's the 30 and which side gets the 10?

Also, tehnically speaking, the way the BI seems to work works, it can actually hurt you to bring allies along. You might get a bonus for outnumbering the foe, but it could be offset by the higher starting Battle Intensity.


A suggestion:

I was thinking that rather than having the starting BI adjusted for battle size , battle could have a Size Intensity, that adds to the Battle Intensity (for both sides). As the fight progresses and the BI is adjusted up and down, half the adjustment is taken off the x Size Intensity instead of the Battle Intensity (as the fight rages on people get hurt and the battle gets smaller). The SI doesn't count towards the Battle Intensity for purposes of dertiming who is winning, but just makes things more difficult for both sides. Eventually the SI gets reduced to zero and the battle runs on as normal without it.

With this idea, starting Battle Intensity could be 20.
Medium Battle could have a Size Intensity of 5, and Large/Huge Battles could have a 10 (or 7 and 10 if one prefers).

I was thinking that rather than having the starting BI adjusted for battle size , battle could have a Size Intensity, that adds to the Battle Intensity (for both sides).



I was thinking the same thing. I would also add the size modifier to the Army Commander's roll. Larger armies are harder to control effectively.

I was thinking that rather than having the starting BI adjusted for battle size , battle could have a Size Intensity, that adds to the Battle Intensity (for both sides).

I was thinking the same thing. I would also add the size modifier to the Army Commander's roll. Larger armies are harder to control effectively.


That is a pretty big change to make.

Theory is nice gents, but let me know what happens with this over ten battles.
First, though, play ten battles with it as it is to be able to compare.

I do not say this to shut anyone up, though I realize it might sound like it.
BATTLE is really, really tested

I would love to hear of a problem you have had.

-g

I'm sorry. I just don't get the numbers here for large battles. It is close to inevitable that the PCs army will retreat in the second round. The PCs must Triumph (-2) and get all the battle events rolls in their favor.


I'll try running a few large/huge battles, but I don't see how the PCs can ever win. I have been proved wrong before, as you know.;...

I was thinking that rather than having the starting BI adjusted for battle size , battle could have a Size Intensity, that adds to the Battle Intensity (for both sides).

I was thinking the same thing. I would also add the size modifier to the Army Commander's roll. Larger armies are harder to control effectively.


That is a pretty big change to make.

Theory is nice gents, but let me know what happens with this over ten battles.
First, though, play ten battles with it as it is to be able to compare.

I do not say this to shut anyone up, though I realize it might sound like it.
BATTLE is really, really tested

You sound fair to me. I've gamed enough and did enough troubleshoot & repair work to know that not all theories or fixes work.



I would love to hear of a problem you have had.

-g



Well,it hasn't come up yet, but how do you work out the Battle Intensity when PCs are on opposite sides? It seems wrong to arbitrarily give one side a 30 and the other a 10. When one side has superior troops, position or numbers, it is a bit easier, but still doesn't seem quite right when it is a fairly even thing.

Well,it hasn't come up yet, but how do you work out the Battle Intensity when PCs are on opposite sides? It seems wrong to arbitrarily give one side a 30 and the other a 10.


Despite the 2 years, my experience with this is limited.
I've run battles with 30 and 10, just not against each other.



When one side has superior troops, position or numbers, it is a bit easier, but still doesn't seem quite right when it is a fairly even thing.


If it's fairly ev en, how do ou get 30 and 10?

Well,it hasn't come up yet, but how do you work out the Battle Intensity when PCs are on opposite sides? It seems wrong to arbitrarily give one side a 30 and the other a 10.


Despite the 2 years, my experience with this is limited.
I've run battles with 30 and 10, just not against each other.



When one side has superior troops, position or numbers, it is a bit easier, but still doesn't seem quite right when it is a fairly even thing.


If it's fairly ev en, how do ou get 30 and 10?





In Opposing Armies?
Players may command units that are on opposite sides of the battle. The same system applies.
The total Opening Battle Intensity for both armies if 40. Throughout the battle the Battle Intensity is reflexive, so that a rise in one is a fall in the other. Thus apply the Unit Victory Resits (Triumph', Crush) from units of both sides
Do just one Overall Battle Events roll.


That's how.


For example, if running Camlann (a huge battle) and the Opening Battle Intensity for the Knights on the side of King Arthur is 30, and the total Opening Battle Intensity for both armies is 40, then the Battle Intensity for the Knights fighter or Mordred is 40-30=10.

What am I doing wrong? ???

I think the situation of opposed PC armies demonstrates some of the problems we have understanding the intensity system at the battle level.


I really like a lot of the other parts of the new battle system. I like the idea of larger battles being more difficult to control, and that the decisions for the unit commander are harder to put into effect because of the chaos. I like maneuver choices and how they are limited by the PCs battle rolls....but so far the probabilities involved in the Battle Intensity part confound me.

Anyway, I'm going to try to run a few large battles and see how they come out....just for fun.

I think the situation of opposed PC armies demonstrates some of the problems we have understanding the intensity system at the battle level.


Perhaps I will make it easy and state that this system is only for troops on one side.
That would make this simpler.

And you have trouble understanding Intensity?

I'm sorry. I just don't get the numbers here for large battles. It is close to inevitable that the PCs army will retreat in the second round. The PCs must Triumph (-2) and get all the battle events rolls in their favor.


I have reviewed these letters, my notes, and last night we tested it out.

This issue, that the armies will promptly retreat if the conditions are too bad for them, is not a bug--it i a feature,
It is intentional.

If your army is fighting under bad conditions, any commander who is not an idiot will retreat ASAP.

I have the feeling that this fact is apparently considered a fault by some.
The point here is that men do not normally fight every time all the time.

I would love to hear of a problem you have had.


Well,it hasn't come up yet, but how do you work out the Battle Intensity when PCs are on opposite sides? It seems wrong to arbitrarily give one side a 30 and the other a 10. When one side has superior troops, position or numbers, it is a bit easier, but still doesn't seem quite right when it is a fairly even thing.


On this point, you are right.
Two PCs change things.

Here are the additional rules (so far) for Player knights on both sides.

Before Play: you need to make two copies of the battlefield zones, and reverse one so that both players have Zone 1 at their end.

Step 2: Calculate Intensity
Skip Battle Size Table on page 14.

Use Table 2 only.

Fight as before
Unit Results for both units are added
There is only one Army Intensity

There are some things to watch:
IF THE PLAYER KNIGHTS ARE NOT ARMY COMMANDERS
Don't confuse your Unit Commander with army commanders. Remember to keep your Unit separate from the army Intensities.

The opposed player units might or might not ever fight each other.

IF YOUR KNIGHT IS ARMY COMMANDER
at this point
You may ignore the Automatic Results of 15 and 25 if you wish.

So far anyway,

and thanks for bringing this up so persistently.

And you have trouble understanding Intensity?


I understand the intent of intensity, and I like it. I think, however, that as implimented it penalizes the PC side and gives a bonus to the NPC side. For example,

(1) A large battle, intensity 30. PC army commander battle skill 20. NPC army commander battle skill 10 (not likely but go with me on this one). For the First Charge, the PC army commander will roll his battle skill versus 15: 30 (BI) -20 (disengaged) + 5 (second rank) = 15. The NPC army commander doesn't roll. In effect, the NPC commander gets a +5 to his battle skill in determining who gets the lance charge bonus. Granted, it is unlikly that at commander of a large battle would have a battle skill of 10, but it is a quirk. May not be that important given the likelihood an army commander having a low battle skill and commanding during a large battle.

(2) Retreat. A large battle, intensity 30. Retreat occurs on 25 for the PC side, but as mentioned above, doesn't come into effect during the first round. Suppose the PC side is Triumphant in the first round, battle intensity is now 28 (-2 for a Triumph during the first charge). Battle Events will change this somewhat, but they are just as likely to raise battle intensity as lower it, so we can ignor it when looking at the average. So, the PC side is in retreat at the beginning of the second round. It's a large battle so NPC side will almost always critical the unit commander's roll, leading the PC side to be double teamed making it difficult to get a triumph on the withdrawl (mostly likely maneuver). So in round 3 intensity will mostly likely stay around 28...PC side still in retreat. Even if the PC side pulls off a Triumphant withdrawl while being double teamed, battle intensity, on average will be 26 at the end of the second round...leading to retreat.

(3) In a large battle, the PC army starts 10 intensity points from being routed. The NPC side starts 30 points from being routed.


I think the way intensity affects the PC's unit is well done and make the battle a lot more interesting. I like the fact that the PC's actions affect the outcome of the battle.


NT

And you have trouble understanding Intensity?


I understand the intent of intensity, and I like it. I think, however, that as implimented it penalizes the PC side and gives a bonus to the NPC side. For example,



I understand what you are saying.

I have not found those problems to be significant.

I am confident in the system working, even if some things seem weird .

OK, I've got it now.

Here's my proposed solution.

All battles begin with Battle Intensity at 20, plus modifiers from the current Table 2, Starting Conditions

Battle Size provides a Unit Intensity modifier, which is added to all units in the battle.
This modifier represents the larger numbers, the greater urgency and desperation of so many troops in conflict, and the mutual urge for Glory on both sides.

-g

All battles begin with Battle Intensity at 20, plus modifiers from the current Table 2, Starting Conditions

Battle Size provides a Unit Intensity modifier, which is added to all units in the battle.
This modifier represents the larger numbers, the greater urgency and desperation of so many troops in conflict, and the mutual urge for Glory on both sides.


Conceptually this makes more sense to me. Thanks for thinking through this issue. Will have to try a few battles to be sure (but that isn't likely to happen for a couple of weeks with my current schedule.)

OK, I've got it now.

Here's my proposed solution.

All battles begin with Battle Intensity at 20, plus modifiers from the current Table 2, Starting Conditions

Battle Size provides a Unit Intensity modifier, which is added to all units in the battle.
This modifier represents the larger numbers, the greater urgency and desperation of so many troops in conflict, and the mutual urge for Glory on both sides.

-g


Yes. That is more or less what Atgxt suggested above. I think it is a really easy fix. It also leaves the whole system more or less intact. Since the rest of the system is really cool, that is great.

Thanks for listening.

Yes. That is more or less what Atgxt suggested above. I think it is a really easy fix. It also leaves the whole system more or less intact. Since the rest of the system is really cool, that is great.

Thanks for listening.



You are welcome, and thank you to all who have been persistent in driving this into my thick skull!

You are welcome, and thank you to all who have been persistent in driving this into my thick skull!


So if we were a pain about this. It just looked like something wasn't quite right,or that there was something that we were missing.



BTW, I think the changes for PCs on two sides probably should carry over to normal battles too, to prevent the following:

Army 1(approx. 1,000 knights, including the PCs) vs. Army 2 (also with about 1,000 knights).

According to the BoB, that is a Small Battle, with a beginning BI of 20 for the player's side (plus any applicable modifiers). So far so good.

But, if a third army (1000KV) comes in to aid one side or the other,

If the 3rd army sides with the PCs, then the Battle is now a Medium Battle, with a Beginning BI of 25, with a -5 modifer for outnumber the enemy 2:1 for a final intensity of 20. Right where they were before factoring for allies.

If the 3rd army side with the enemy (army 2) then the Battle is now a Medium Battle, with a Beginning BI of 25, with a +5 modifer for the PCs side being outnumber for a final intensity of 30! So allies work for the enemy, but not for the side with the PCs!

I can see what you are trying to say, but I think that there is nothing wrong in what you are saying.

The arrival of the third army to ally with one side or another should really only affect the enemy. They will be outnumbered and have a harder time surviving.

Where as the side with the greater numbers will still be able to operate as 'normal'.

I don't think that we should force anything in to make the numbers appear symetrical.

Think of it, as a 3 man fight. The poor beggar being outnumbered will have it pretty hard and may need to split his attack. The other two, individually will have the same chance they did before. No change for them.

You are welcome, and thank you to all who have been persistent in driving this into my thick skull!


So if we were a pain about this. It just looked like something wasn't quite right,or that there was something that we were missing.



BTW, I think the changes for PCs on two sides probably should carry over to normal battles too, to prevent the following:

Army 1(approx. 1,000 knights, including the PCs) vs. Army 2 (also with about 1,000 knights).

According to the BoB, that is a Small Battle, with a beginning BI of 20 for the player's side (plus any applicable modifiers). So far so good.

But, if a third army (1000KV) comes in to aid one side or the other,

If the 3rd army sides with the PCs, then the Battle is now a Medium Battle, with a Beginning BI of 25, with a -5 modifer for outnumber the enemy 2:1 for a final intensity of 20. Right where they were before factoring for allies.

If the 3rd army side with the enemy (army 2) then the Battle is now a Medium Battle, with a Beginning BI of 25, with a +5 modifer for the PCs side being outnumber for a final intensity of 30! So allies work for the enemy, but not for the side with the PCs!






the battle system sems to be ABSTRACT. As such not everything is mathematIcally equal. It was MOST IMPORTANTLY made to be a challenge to the PK's I believe. So they get the sense of just how gritty and dangerous battle really was. Throughout history you will find that the majority of battles ended indecisive ( thats why you only se written accounts of famous battles. Because they were not the Norm. They had a decisive end). So too you will find that if you use the BoB MOST battles will actually end Indecisive. By usingg the different manuevers too, a smart party ( not genius by any means) can easily overcome nearly any obstacle, and can quite easily overcome any BI. If you change the intensity you simply make it easier for the PK's and the manuevers and thought processes of the battle become far les important. Of course I dont claim to know everyything.... that is just my ever so humble opinion and I have a feeling that not many will agree with me! :D

Here's my proposed solution.

All battles begin with Battle Intensity at 20, plus modifiers from the current Table 2, Starting Conditions...



Wait— do you mean to say Battle Intensity at 20, plus modifiers from the current Table 2, plus Starting Conditions, plus 3d6-10 Battle Events, plus Unit Cohesion, plus Battle Zone...? This is a new way to calculate First Charge Intensity?

Just making sure I've got this straight.

Thanks,


T.