I was younger when I had 4th edition and I had no desire to play magicians or lady's in the game. ( especially after trying to read through 4th edition which was a bit hard to get through! ). I am not sure that I would integrate a 5th edition PLAYER into my campaign, but for rules consistency I would be interested in how they are supposed to be run so that I can throw them at players. I don't want them to be too angry that Im BENDING rules if I dont follow the RULES! Ya know? Is it easily explainable ( mechanics wise) or do I just need to get a 4th edition book again? Please help!

The way magicians are intended to run in 5th edition is, I believe: "make it up, while trying to stay close to the kind of magic you see in the literature."
There is a guide as to the sorts of magic effects magicians can create, in the KAP rulebook, starting on page 156.

People with 4th edition can of course use those rules, but that's a bit much hassle for me.

Thats how I always play it too. To me that's one of the strengths of Pendragon - magic isn't written down in a set of rules. Its unpredictable and mysterious, and does whatever the GM needs it to do for the plotline...

Excellent. Thats what Ive been doing. so at least I dont feel like i am scr*w*ng over my players. I make it challenging but fair.

I've been playing a 4th ed. enchantress for over a year now, and don't blame you for finding those bits difficult to get through. :P

If you're just having NPC magic users, then I think the pp's suggestions are excellent. You shouldn't have to be shackled by the system, but more inspired by the source material.

That said, I can summarize 4th ed. magic users pretty easily: magic is rare and expensive.

Even the simplest effects take a month of prep time either done before or paid for after- and it goes up from there; powerful magic can require a year or more of prep time- so even a powerful practitioner (which most people who have any magic are not) will avoid using magic unless they really need to. And if they need to, they will prefer to do so in a place and at a time of their choosing. Magic users do not going around flinging fireballs* and instantly healing people** willy-nilly, like in D&D.

I had an enchantress character that I played for thirty years of game time, and she cast like, 12 spells in that whole time.

*which you can't do in Pendragon except as a glamour which will fade away eventually.
**which you can only do if you transfer the damage from the victim to the magician.

I've run several games with 4th ed magicians. I'll second the "Slow and Expensive".... but I'll also point out that a well-prepped bunch of small foci can make a mage a powerful and flexible aid on the road.

Here's how I do it in 4/4.5e... YMMV, but this works.

Sum the religious traits. That's your base Magic Limit.
Divide Base Magic Limit by 20, rounding normally. That's base Life Force, magic's equivalent to damage. In only changes annually, except in exceptional situations.
If you have the religious bonus, your actual magic limit is double base magic limit; if not, it equals base magic limit.

When casting, determine desired effect, and what skill (or skills) it involves, and how high the target number is. (If multiples, add them up. A combined glamour/blessing would be the sum of both the glamour's difficulty and the blessing's difficulty). Add difficulty for how many are affected (numbers of people), and for how long. You now have a final difficulty. If it is above your Magic Limit, it's too hard without a critical success. If more than double, you can't do it.

When you cast, you'll roll, officially, each skill used. In my game, roll the lowest applicable skill. If using separate rolls, use the lowest result for the effects. This is a simple roll.
F: no casting
S: cast, with power dice as listed.
CS: Cast, but with life force listed (and double magic limit).

** (if making a talisman, stop here. If releasing a talisman, start here)

So, grab a bunch of d20's... equal to your life force (or double if you critted). Add any gained for it being your kind of holy place or the right kind of place for the effect, the right time for the effect, sacrifices, or special talismans. Roll and total; I call this the power. If power is above your magic limit (or twice it if you critted), cap it at that limit.
If you beat the difficulty, you cast it. If not, you cast it at reduced effect... reduce time and targets until you are down to just the effects, then start losing effects... when you are below the lowest effect, you get a pretty show of magical dance...

If you rolled extra, you can put it to use expanding duration or area, or maybe even effect. But you don't have to. What you USE is the measure

Whatever power level you cast at, that number is important. Divide by 10 if it wasn't solely within your natural talent, or by 20 if it was purely within your natural talent's skill. That's how much sleep you owe, in weeks. After the first spell, you have 7 noons to find a place to sleep.

If, on the day sleep is due, you choose not to, you make an aging loss roll right then and there, and have 7 more days, but owe one less week....

Now, if you know you'll need a spell and have time in advance, you can prep. Prep, in weeks, is subtracted from sleep owed when you cast. Prep has to be right before.

-=-=-=-
A Talisman is created exactly like casting a spell... except the spell is stored in the object. It interrupts at the ** above. The life force used is current at time of release, and the location and timing dice are for release. In my game, Sacrifices could be at either end... the bok doesn't say either way, so do as you see fit.

I had players record talent, effect, and weeks for talismans,and a CS if a crit.
EG: 4 leaf clover holding: Bless - Good Luck - 6 weeks or Dragon Tooth, Control Faerie Critter, control wyrm, 15 weeks, CS, +3d from sacrifices

So if I had a pagan with Control Faerie Critter 15, and 104 points of Magic limit, (and thus 5d20 Life Force), and used that talisman of dragon control in the field on Beltain, I'd roll 10d20 (cause of the crit) plus 3d for being in the wilds, plus 3d for the sacrifice, +5d for all magic on beltain, for a whomping 21d10, and would cap at 208 if I rolled average. I'm shooting for a minimum 150... and that gets me 1 wyrm, 1 time, for 1 hour. I'd need 160 to get 6 hours, or 160 to get 2 wyrms for 1 hour... but would owe a week, since only 15 are in the talisman's prep. 4 months prep to control a wyrm for an hour.

Now, with a mumified rabbit - Animal Friend, control animal, 20 weeks, CS... I could take that base 100 and, assuming I did it on beltain, I'd get an extra 3d for animal friend...so, capped at 208... I can control a "small crowd" (say, a warren) for an hour (+100), or 1 rabbit for 5 years (+100), and owe no sleep... but I'd have spent almost half a year in prep...

Permanent spells are simpler... you just pay for base and number affected; no time component... you must hit the needed power. You then subtract that needed power from your magic limit, and pay sleep on it as well. That life force only comes back to you when the object is dispelled or Broken. A permanent blessing of a village costs 60 points... about half of a weak magicians's total. Doesn't reduce your dice any, but you'll cap far more often.

Merlin's enchantment of Britain was a lifetime (150) country (about 300) Blessing (30)...for about 480. He's got all 6 at average of 20 (base 120, and 6d) and the religious bonus (Magic Limit 240 base), and critted, doubling to 480...he needed at least 24 dice ambient... 6 base, doubled for a crit, at Stonehenge (+8d), on a full moon +2d Bless which happens to be also on Lugnasadh (+5d20), sacraficing his willing apprentice (at least another 5d); 32 dice, and rolled hot.
48 weeks owed.... 4 weeks shy of a year. . . .

some other thoughts...

In one game, I had a PC who was a clergyman. He blessed the lord's fields, and prepped talismans in the fall. He averaged about 18-20 weeks a year in casting prep, and not all weak ones: Victory, sword blessings, armor blessings. When the Battle of St. Alban's hit, he released some 15+ talismans... +1 to each battaile and the overall commander's Battle, Sword, and Armor, and shield. Plus a 60 point glamour of Christ Triumphant looking over the battle... from Arthur's side. Many conversions that day... "God is with us!"

For Christian magic users, prep time isn't spent in a lab... it's spent in prayer and mortification. Sleep could likewise be averted by 12+ hours per day of prayer. Not in the rules that way, but it works better for the flavor; net effect is the same, the character is out of play for those weeks. 10 weeks a year are out of bounds, tho... 6 weeks before easter to 1 after. The week of Pentecost is also off limits (40 days after easter). This period has so many observances required that sleep would pull one away from... The two weeks of Christmas to Epiphany (12th night) likewise would likely be precluded for any cleric.

Aramis, thank you. That helped clarify a bit for a lazy guy like me!!! I certainly intend to , not only pit sorcerers and wicked priests at the players, but maybe a helpful re-occuring Priest or sorcerous. That gives me a more refined idea about power levels and cost, etc.. Thank you!

Also when playing clerics, one has to ask, does the prayer/blessing/miracle fit within the deity/deities goals? Instead of getting additional dice for dates, seasons, moons, and the like, I would think of other names for the modifiers. I also have used additional religious trait rolls for piety (not necessarily pious), strength of faith, and other factors to weigh in on the final total. I heartily agree that prayer, meditation, good works are ways to pay the sleep cost as it fits.

Overall, the magic system takes a lot of preparation, and sometimes a bad roll can ruin everything. I explained to a D&Der that magic is similar to 3rd edition in that you spend a lot of time memorizing (prepping) and get that one spell off. Then start over unless you don't want to live long. I then went on to explain aging.

Thanks Aramis!

That makes things much clearer. Lets open another question here though.

What would people do to make this system more streamlined?

SDLeary

Really, the slowest part is the rolling of LOADS of D20's.
THe second slowest is picking the magic in the first place.

When done well, magician characters neither overpower nor replace knights. A magician with some handy talismans can be a wicked powerful tool... but that's best handled outside session time, player-with-GM and a 52 box 1-week-per-box calendar. Seriously, blocking the weeks out visually, and marking the holidays, really speeds play of the "outside the adventure" magic activities of talismans and winter-phase-dm-boosting.