After my recent Total Party Kill event, my players are now looking towards their younger brothers as their next Player Knights (thankfully they all still have younger brothers). Now that I'm turning my attention to this aspect of the game I have a few questions though.

If there are no younger brothers left and the player still wishes to play the same family, would it be reasonable for the GM to allow play of a cousin?

Two of the dead PKs have potential heirs and I have a question about each of them;

PK1 has two male heirs currently at ages 3 and 2. Obviously he can't play them yet and intends to play the younger brother of his dead PK. If his heirs survive to adulthood, I assume they are still the rightful heirs of the manor, and the younger brother is merely the steward until such a time arrives. This is fine, but it then seems a bit pointless for the younger brother to marry and try for children as they will get nothing should the original heirs survive. He's really just a stop gap. Is that right?

PK2 is a bit more complex. He married Lady Elaine - after much chasing and effort - only to be killed three months later. If his childbirth roll produces an heir what happens here? Lady Elaine comes with land, but that land is hers and not that of the PK she married. Yes he gets the income from it but it is not his by right. I assume any male heir does inherit the land as and when he reaches maturity but what happens in the meantime? Does the family still get the income from the land, with the new PK (the younger brother of the old) acting as steward in the same way as the above situation with PK1? If the child is a girl I assume she will inherit the land upon the death of Elaine, and that land will then pass to whoever she ends up marrying, right? (Such a situation meaning that the lands pass away from my PKs family).

After my recent Total Party Kill event, my players are now looking towards their younger brothers as their next Player Knights (thankfully they all still have younger brothers). Now that I'm turning my attention to this aspect of the game I have a few questions though.

If there are no younger brothers left and the player still wishes to play the same family, would it be reasonable for the GM to allow play of a cousin?

That's your call as the GM. There are almost certainly some cousins, uncles and whatnot around. All those "birth in family" events mean something. So it is really your call as to if you want the player to keep the land or make him play a household knight.



PK1 has two male heirs currently at ages 3 and 2. Obviously he can't play them yet and intends to play the younger brother of his dead PK. If his heirs survive to adulthood, I assume they are still the rightful heirs of the manor, and the younger brother is merely the steward until such a time arrives. This is fine, but it then seems a bit pointless for the younger brother to marry and try for children as they will get nothing should the original heirs survive. He's really just a stop gap. Is that right?

On the contrary, marriage is a big point for the brother. If he marries an heiress, then any lands she has goes to him and his sons, not to the sons of his deceased brother. So marring well is how he can get land of his own. So he would probably try to impress his leige and make connections to try and get a good match. It even gives him more incentive to be a good steward, as it will show what sort of job he will he can do with land of his own. Ands his opportunities are greatest while he has cntrol over his brother's lands and income.

Plus, if anything should happen to his brother's children (the child survival table) , he would inherit his brother's lands, and would need sons to pass the land down to.




PK2 is a bit more complex. He married Lady Elaine - after much chasing and effort - only to be killed three months later. If his childbirth roll produces an heir what happens here? Lady Elaine comes with land, but that land is hers and not that of the PK she married. Yes he gets the income from it but it is not his by right. I assume any male heir does inherit the land as and when he reaches maturity but what happens in the meantime?

The leige would appoint a steward to oversee the land until the heir reaches maturity. Just who gets that job is up to the liege. It could be a male relative of the dead PK or it could be someone else, depending on cirmstances and the wishes of the liege (i.e. GM's call).




Does the family still get the income from the land, with the new PK (the younger brother of the old) acting as steward in the same way as the above situation with PK1?

The steward would run things and handle the income. If the steward is a member of the PK's family, then he could spend the money on the family. As long as Elain is alive she would have some influence and income from her own land . In this case the younger brother would have no chance of ever inheriting the land, but there is probably someone from Elaine's side of the family who could be in line-probably Elaine's younger sister.



If the child is a girl I assume she will inherit the land upon the death of Elaine, and that land will then pass to whoever she ends up marrying, right? (Such a situation meaning that the lands pass away from my PKs family).



Yes. Unless something happens to upset the applecart, such as some previously unknown son showing up and laying a claim.

Many thanks. That all makes perfect sense and has helped me a lot.

Rather than feeling my campaign is a total mess after the TPK I'm now rather looking forward to the twists and turns ahead :D

That's good to hear :)

That's good to hear :)




Unless your a player! :o :D ;D

One more question here;

If a knight marries a woman with land, say Lady Elaine or Lady Indeg, and she dies before any offspring are produced, what then? Does the land revert back to the earl, pass to the husband for the duration of his lifetime or pass to the husband for the duration of his life and that of his heirs (assuming one from a later marriage)?

Good Question.

I believe any of the possible outcomes you mentioned might occur, depending upon other factors, such as how much favor one side of the family or the other had with the liege and so forth. One way that Pendragon the RPG differs from medieval history is that things are a bit more cut and dried in the game, for the benefit of vassal PCs.

I'm inclined to believe that the husband would normally be considered to have legal right to his wife's possessions, including the land, but I don't think that the land could be passed down by inheritance that way. At least not directly. But the liege could, and probably would extend the grant to the husband (after all, he approved of the marriage in the first place, so he was expecting the husband's sons to inherit the land in the first place).

But, if the leige were unhappy with the husband, or if the wife's family had a lot of influence, or if circumstances had changed and the liege wanted the land back or in the hands of another, this situation would allow for some flexibility. I suspect that historically, the claimants would petition the leige's court give gifts and the leige would decide.


At least that is how I think it would work.

Or, if you don't like to play Genealogy RPG, you can avoid killing everybody. ;D

Believe me, it wasn't planned.

However, we live and die by the dice results and that was the outcome. I like it that way. I used to roll in secret but now 99% of my rolls are in the open for all to see. It has changed the play emphasis; my players now place huge importance on their PK family, whereas before (in other systems) they would care only about themselves - and often take daft risks in the hope that I'd "save" them.

Also, this has helped them in the past. It was only a few months back that I was wondering if my PKs were just too tough (as mentioned on the forums) because they breezed through the first 6 years of the GPC. Giants, wars, saxons, evil warlocks, werewolves, pah! They minced the lot of them because fate was with them... erm then it wasn't, Big Time! There is slightly more to it than just dice though. My PKs used very poor tactics IMHO and they were facing a very tough redcap. It didn't kill all of them outright (only 3 of them through massive damage) but as no one was left standing at the end, it promptly carved them all to pieces. That's five PKs and two equally tough NPKs.

Still, that's for another thread. Atgxtg thanks for the reply. It is a complex issue and not one likely to have a cut and dried answer.

ATGXGT did a good job up there, and I'll just add a bit.



PK2 is a bit more complex. He married Lady Elaine - after much chasing and effort - only to be killed three months later. If his childbirth roll produces an heir what happens here? Lady Elaine comes with land, but that land is hers and not that of the PK she married. Yes he gets the income from it but it is not his by right.


The Anarchy Period confuses things quite a bit, since here is no "natural order" here any more.
No king, no earl--the knights are the highest ranking lords now! No boss!!



I assume any male heir does inherit the land as and when he reaches maturity


Yes, but therein lies the problem--his survival.
Who will protect him from a ruthless knight who wants no complications whe he grabs the lands?



but what happens in the meantime?

I will assume that the lad and his mother are protected.
One method to protect the boy is to get them to Amesbury to be raised. It's a fortified nunnery, and its sancticy will preserve him from pious knights.

One more question here;


Keep 'em coming



If a knight marries a woman with land, say Lady Elaine or Lady Indeg, and she dies before any offspring are produced, what then? Does the land revert back to the earl,

Yes


pass to the husband for the duration of his lifetime or pass to the husband for the duration of his life and that of his heirs (assuming one from a later marriage)?


No and no.
Not unless the earl does so, personally. All feudal law and custom support this.

Now, you local tribal tradition might say something different, or your Roman law.
But those are extraordinary things, outside of the rules per se.

Believe me, it wasn't planned.


Hooray for open dice rolls, and the long-term proof of the bell curve!!

What bell curve is there with a d20?

What bell curve is there with a d20?


One with a very small arch. ;D

What bell curve is there with a d20?


I was thinking of damage.
::)