As a tangent to the duke/baron/earl thread, I'm wondering about the relationship between and ratios of vassal knights and bannerets.

How common is subenfoeffment? In any particular county, what percentage of manor are held under bannerets? I realize there's no fixed answer, I'm just trying to get a sense of how widespread the practice is.

The definition of enfoeffed manor in Book of the Manor says "if a knight has multiple manors which require knight's service, then he may give these to knights who use the L6 to support themselves." Does he just pick a knight on his own, or does he need his lord's permission? What obligations does the new tenant knight have to the banneret? to the Count? Technically, the manor is still a holding of the banneret, so is the tenant considered a landholder, or a steward?

In one of the sample charters in Book of the Manor, Sir Ambrut is gifted the manor of Hamlet's Mill, which is already enfoeffed to Sir Lewis. It seems like Sir Ambrut doesn't really get anything out of this gift, other than a bit of prestige. He gains none of the benefits of holding the manor, but takes an administrative load off his liege. As for Sir Lewis, what obligations does he have to Sir Ambrut?

I don't think having enough manors to subenfoef makes you a banneret automatically. I think a vassal knight can have vassal knights of their own. In my campaign, the vassals of vassals (vavasours?) hold and administer and gain the income and glory from their manor. The liege still gets the annual glory too.

How common is subenfoeffment? In any particular county, what percentage of manor are held under bannerets? I realize there's no fixed answer, I'm just trying to get a sense of how widespread the practice is.

It's hard to say how many bannerettes there are, but subinfeudation is very common. As Tychus stated, you don't get to be a bannerette just by having 5 or more manors, and 3+ vassals. Vassal Knights can have other knights as vassals. A knight could hold 20 manors, give 15 of them to vassals, and not be a bannerette.
Bannerette requires a minimum number of knights and manors, and on top of that, reequires that your lord give you the title. This marks you out as a leader of men when called to battle, and is a special honour.


The definition of enfoeffed manor in Book of the Manor says "if a knight has multiple manors which require knight's service, then he may give these to knights who use the L6 to support themselves." Does he just pick a knight on his own, or does he need his lord's permission? What obligations does the new tenant knight have to the banneret? to the Count? Technically, the manor is still a holding of the banneret, so is the tenant considered a landholder, or a steward?

Let's say Ambrut has an estate of 7 manors, with an obligation of 5 knights (including himself). He holds them from the Count. Now, the Count owes service to the King, so when the king calls him up, he then sends word to his own vassals and summons those he thinks he needs. Ambrut will be part of that call.

Now, lets say Ambrut has enfeoffed 3 of his manors, and has 3 vassal knights. They make up 3 of his army of 5 knights. So when he is called up, he takes his household knight, and summons his 3 vassals.

These vassals hold the land from Ambrut, and their loyalty is to him. They obey him.
Ambrut holds the land from the Count, so his loyalty is to the Count, and he will order his men, including the vassals to do whatever the lord tells him to.
The Count holds his land from the king, and his loyalty is to the King, so he will order Ambrut and his otehr vassals to do whatever the King tells him to.

In an ideal world anyway.
In practice, vassals of all ranks are sometimes less reliable than a household knight.
The King will summon his nobles. Some of them will realise they are about to be taxed, and make excuses for not turning up. Otehrs will genuinely have reasons they can't respond, like dealing with dragons on their land or whatever, and maybe the message genuinely didnt reach them in time.
Likewise, when the Count sends for his vassals, some of them might not turn up.
And when Ambrut sends for his vassals, some may send only excuses.
Such tardiness is disloyal, and often dishonourable, at least if done deliberately, but it happens. The smaller the estate, the more reliable the vassals tend to be as a general rule.

So, why would you give a manor to a vassal, rather than keeping direct control?

Larger estates are harder to administrate - the game mechanics don't show it, but there's a limit to the ability of feudal administration, and regions have to be broken up into smaller estates to be manageable.

So why would a player do it? In fact, there's no game mechanical reason for players at the vassal or bannerette rank to do it. It's more efficient to keep direct control of your estates. However, it's very in-keeping with the setting, and also, if you need to reward someone for something, it's the best reward you can give. For poorer knights with land, it might be the only reward they can afford! (Also, if one of your manors is cursed, you might be able to redirect the curse by giving that manor to someone else...)
Also, if your manors are scattered far and wide, it makes sense to divide them up in this way, since you can't maintain direct stewardship over the lot of them. The rules don't force you to do this, since you could just as easily appoint a steward and post a knight there as garrison. But it's worth considering if one of your npc followers impresses you, or if you have a knight shortage and want to reward another pc by knighting one of his sons and giving him land.
PS: it is possible to tax vassals to get money out of them, but the manor system doesn't tell you what sort of money you should get - but if harvests are good, you can safely demand £1-3 per year from each manor. This may drive down their loyalty make them less eager to respond to your summons though.


In one of the sample charters in Book of the Manor, Sir Ambrut is gifted the manor of Hamlet's Mill, which is already enfoeffed to Sir Lewis. It seems like Sir Ambrut doesn't really get anything out of this gift, other than a bit of prestige. He gains none of the benefits of holding the manor, but takes an administrative load off his liege. As for Sir Lewis, what obligations does he have to Sir Ambrut?

Lewis has exactly the same obligations to Ambrut, as Ambrut has to his Count.

The definition of enfoeffed manor in Book of the Manor says "if a knight has multiple manors which require knight's service, then he may give these to knights who use the L6 to support themselves." Does he just pick a knight on his own, or does he need his lord's permission?

I realise I didn't answer this. You can only enfeof a knight who is free to give you their loyalty. Any knight who already has a lord would have to desert that lord to become your vassal - which is the height of dishonour, and could you trust someone with your land who was willing to do that? So that's not done.
This means you usually choose knights from your household. If you have met a landless, lordless poor wandering knight, you could choose them. Or you could use the opportunity to get someone indebted to you, by knighting the son of someone else and taking them into your army. This kind of thing is pretty common - it builds networks of alliances, and may be more important than the financial benefits/drawbacks of setting aside a manor.
The reason is: most families can only afford to knight their eldest son, and maybe their second son. Knighting is expensive. But if you pay the cost, you get that family's friendship, and should be able to call upon them in future.


What obligations does the new tenant knight have to the banneret? to the Count? Technically, the manor is still a holding of the banneret, so is the tenant considered a landholder, or a steward?

When you award a manor to a knight, you can award it as a gift (lasts until the knight dies) or a grant (belongs to that knights family in perpetuity). That manor is then the property of that knight, to do with as he pleases, so long as he fulfils his obligations to you. These will be set out in the manor charter, but at a minimum, it's the same obligations that any landed knight has to his liege.
(Individual manors may have additional demands, like "supply an extra £1 of income per year" - if you're giving away a manor that has been advanced with the manor book system, it's perfectly reasonable to calculate that estates annual income and expenses, see if it gives more than £6 per year on average, and have the lord give you most of that each year. But you'll be settign a fixed cost - not one which is based on the fluctuating value of his harvest, so in bad years, that might be very bad for him, and in good years, he'll be able to keep the excess profit.

The manor knight has no obligations to Ambrut's liege, other than the usual respect one would give to a person of high status and prestige. The manor knight is the lord of this manor, so he can appoint his own steward, or occupy the position himself.

I hope that helps!

Hmm. I was under the impression that only the count (or higher authority) could bestow knighthood and grant charters.

Ah that reminds me, you asked another question I meant to answer:


Does he just pick a knight on his own, or does he need his lord's permission?


This is going to depend on the time of the campaign. Technically, any knight can knight another noble, but its bad form to do it if you can't support them! Say you are a vassal knight who has 3 household knights (none of them landed). You go to battle, one of them dies, you need to replace him. It is you who knights that new knight, and as a result, it's you that gets that knights loyalty.
Likewise, when your son comes of age, and inherits your estate, there is a ceremony in which each of the estates household knights reaffirm their oaths of homage and fealty - which is basically just the knighting ceremony over again.

That said, if you come into wealth, and start raising lots of knights, building up an army, your own liege might get a little nervous about your plans. So, they might well insist that you get their permission before you knight anyone, and at the very least, it's the polite thing to discuss it with them first. It's yet another opportunity to win favour, as it gives the lord the opportunity to suggest knighting candidates, from among his allies and subject families. The lord gets to pay off debts he has to various subjects by getting their sons knights, and you get the lord's good graces by helping him in this way. Though you could refuse his choice and knight someone else, anyway - if you don't mind getting your liege's disfavour...



Hmm. I was under the impression that only the count (or higher authority) could bestow knighthood and grant charters.


A charter is simply an agreement, "you will do this, in return for..." - it might not even be written down. The only limit really is that a vassal cannot give away rights to land he does not hold fully - all of the foregoing assumes the vassal knights hold permanent grants, rather than temporary gifts.