I am generating a squire using the Book of Knights and Ladies. I have run into two issues:
The main rule book indicates that traits carry over from father to son but this absent from Knights & Ladies (though passions are still mentioned as carrying over). Is this a deliberate change or does the KAP rule still hold?
Knights & Ladies handles creation of a squire character, but the sidebar assumes that the character will be 15. In my case, the squire will be 19. How would you recommend handling the extra years?


My apologies for not being able to provide page references at this time; I do not have my books with me, but will add them when I return home unless someone beats me to it.

1) Carrying over Traits
-I'd drop this. the Core book suggestred this along with assigning 60 points among attributes. THe idea seemed to be that once could just reuse their orginal character design for all of thier character's decendants. The idea is neat, but, frankly, if you are going to do that, why bother using Knights & Ladies?

2) Easy, just give the squire 4 years of Previous Experience, as per page 69 of Knights & Ladies? Basically eeach year the character can benefit from solos (forinstance, garrison duty), gets glory for traits, pasions, and events (there is a list of events on pp. 69-70, remember squires get 1/4 glory from events). and gets to go through the Winter Phase, getting improvement rolls and Training.

A squire PC is probably going to take the 1d6+1 skill points for training most years, so he can work towards qualifying for knighthood. But he might work of a trait,passion, attribute, or rasing a skill abouve 15.

I am generating a squire using the Book of Knights and Ladies. I have run into two issues:
The main rule book indicates that traits carry over from father to son but this absent from Knights & Ladies (though passions are still mentioned as carrying over). Is this a deliberate change or does the KAP rule still hold?
Knights & Ladies handles creation of a squire character, but the sidebar assumes that the character will be 15. In my case, the squire will be 19. How would you recommend handling the extra years?


My apologies for not being able to provide page references at this time; I do not have my books with me, but will add them when I return home unless someone beats me to it.
I think that what the intent is , is to take some of the father's more prominent traits ( if you want to ) , ones that are 16+ , for instance. Or if the father had a high passion for instance he could pass that to a son. I dont believe it was intended to make a carbon copy of your last character , just to take a few unique traits and keep them in the family. Also in KAP 5 there is no need to QUALIFY for knighthood , so Unless you are playing a different edition I think you might ignore this.

1) Carrying over Traits
-I'd drop this. the Core book suggestred this along with
assigning 60 points among attributes. THe idea seemed to be that once could just reuse their orginal character design for all of thier character's decendants. The idea is neat, but, frankly, if you are going to do that, why bother using Knights & Ladies?

That certainly makes sense. Cookie cutter characters detract from the sense of mortality. However, if traits don't carry over in some way, it seems that family morals reset with each son. There are no lines of fanatic Christians/Pagans/Etc.

My recently deceased Character has several notable traits (I think he got 150 or so plus religious bonus year from them) so I can't say i'm unbiased. But it seems strange that a son of a noted Pagan knight with exceptional valor picked up nothing exceptional himself.


2) Easy, just give the squire 4 years of Previous Experience, as per page 69 of Knights & Ladies? Basically eeach year the character can benefit from solos (forinstance, garrison duty), gets glory for traits, pasions, and events (there is a list of events on pp. 69-70, remember squires get 1/4 glory from events). and gets to go through the Winter Phase, getting improvement rolls and Training.

A squire PC is probably going to take the 1d6+1 skill points for training most years, so he can work towards qualifying for knighthood. But he might work of a trait,passion, attribute, or rasing a skill abouve 15.

I may be confused regarding previous experience, but considering the skill hits a squire takes (-1 to -3 in several skills; no 15 in one skill, possibly other penalties as well; I don't recall), I don't think they'll be able to catch up by 21.
Solo scenarios are an interesting idea, but 1) they take place during winter phase, not character creation; and 2) I don't believe any of the solos are appropriate to a squire. Garrison duty strikes me as a knightly solo; a squire may be present, but not relied upon for watch or combat.

Also, note that squires get 1/4th glory for battles, not all events.

1) Carrying over Traits
-I'd drop this. the Core book suggestred this along with
assigning 60 points among attributes. THe idea seemed to be that once could just reuse their orginal character design for all of thier character's decendants. The idea is neat, but, frankly, if you are going to do that, why bother using Knights & Ladies?

That certainly makes sense. Cookie cutter characters detract from the sense of mortality. However, if traits don't carry over in some way, it seems that family morals reset with each son. There are no lines of fanatic Christians/Pagans/Etc.

My recently deceased Character has several notable traits (I think he got 150 or so plus religious bonus year from them) so I can't say i'm unbiased. But it seems strange that a son of a noted Pagan knight with exceptional valor picked up nothing exceptional himself.


You could give the son a +1 modifier to the trait for every, say, 3 points the father's trait is over 10. So if the father has Energetic 16, the son gets +2/-2 to Energetic/Lazy at creation.

My apologies for not being able to provide page references at this time; I do not have my books with me, but will add them when I return home unless someone beats me to it.

As promised, the page references are as follows:
King Arthur Pendragon (5th Edition):
Page 53 Under Sons as Player Characters "Players choose whether they wish their characters' heirs to keep the same traits, directed traits, and passions as the father." (section includes GM caveat for inheriting anything over 20) Note the section also mentions the option to have the son's attributes start at the same value as the father's but I assume the 60 limit still applies.

Book of Knights and Ladies:
No mention of inheriting traits (that I see); page 49 under E. Passions for Sons of Player Knights- Standard Characters "These are equal to the father's Passion value."

Is the difference simply a change in the idea of "how far the apple falls from the tree"?

An additional question along this line, I am assuming that the squire receives the skill benefit of the father's class (in this case, Marshal of Salisbury so +3 Battle/Siege). Am I correct?

Edit: I just reread the previous experience section of Knights & Ladies and see what you mean regarding solo scenarios. The issue of which scenarios are appropriate for a squire still stands. It does bring up another issue which I did not think I had to address yet: am I correct in thinking that he receives no glory for his manors until he is knighted? Or does he receive the income and glory even as a 19 year old squire?

Cann't help regarding BoK&L since I haven't had to read it (still on my first character in current campaign).

But a squire does not get the glory from manors before he is knighted. He doesn't gain control of them before he comes of age (gets knighted), and they are held by a ward.

In my campaigns, we had a squire pool (see other thread for more info). Each player created a squire a random, added a quirk or two, and tossed it into the pile. When a player's knight fell or was out of story for another reason, many times (until we started a second knight) we grabbed one. Sometimes it happened that the original knight was out for a year or more and the squire was proving fun to play. So, we did a back engineer creation. That is, the squire would now go through creation as a knight character would up to the age he currently was. His combat or other known skills/stats/traits could not increase or decrease, but the unknown ones were open and we did a full creation on the squire.

We also started our children as pcs at a younger age if it made sense (a couple of us children, as pages, saw the embedding of the sword into the stone by Merlin) and plot/scenarios were interwoven and we had a much tighter control of how the squire/child developed.

But, your point is valid. Remember all characters are almost always squires until they are knighted. If you want to create a PC squire, no problem. Just follow your normal creation method (including any house rules or modifications). Thus, you can find out their father's traits, inherit passions, and so on.

Bob

That certainly makes sense. Cookie cutter characters detract from the sense of mortality. However, if traits don't carry over in some way, it seems that family morals reset with each son. There are no lines of fanatic Christians/Pagans/Etc.

In K&L player knights do get some bonuses from relgion (+3 to the underlines trat) and quite a few discretionary points to spend. I think if you carried traits over you woulld soon find that the group are all paragon7s of virtue, since each generatoion could start where the previous one had left off.




My recently deceased Character has several notable traits (I think he got 150 or so plus religious bonus year from them) so I can't say i'm unbiased. But it seems strange that a son of a noted Pagan knight with exceptional valor picked up nothing exceptional himself.

Not really strange at all. IF it were true, then you could always triust the son on an honest man to be honest, and so forth.

If you wanted to, you could swipe the rule for carrying over passions and apply it to traits. That is 1D6 per 4 points.


[/quote]
I may be confused regarding previous experience, but considering the skill hits a squire takes (-1 to -3 in several skills; no 15 in one skill, possibly other penalties as well; I don't recall), I don't think they'll be able to catch up by 21. [/quote]

I thought the same, but what seems to be happening in my campaign is that PC squaires get more glory and skill checks and tend to compesate for the lack of all around training with bettwer skill scores in a few keyt areas, and probably don7t suffer that much from the -1 to -3 peanlties as they are spread out over several skills, typically ones that the PC wouldn7t try to rely on anyway, as they are farily low.

i got one PC in my cvampaign who started as a squire and by the time he was 21, he had not only met the requirments for knighthood, but had a 15 in all his combat skills and over 5000 Glory! He wasn7t as well rounded as if he were written up as a knight, but he was certanly had a lot more glory and was probably tougher.




Solo scenarios are an interesting idea, but 1) they take place during winter phase, not character creation;

THe PRevious Experience in K&L is essentially going through one or more years to age the sqauire, so the Winter Phase thing isn't an issue. Squires get thier training and glory during the winter phase too.





and 2) I don't believe any of the solos are appropriate to a squire. Garrison duty strikes me as a knightly solo; a squire may be present, but not relied upon for watch or combat.

I disagree. Squires are knight in traning, and they do stand watch and engage in some combat. It not like attackers are going to ingore the squires.




Also, note that squires get 1/4th glory for battles, not all events.


True. For some events, where the glory comes from witnessessing something rather than actions, (like seeing Arthur drraw the stone from the sword, or being crowened) squires should probably get full glory.

In K&L player knights do get some bonuses from relgion (+3 to the underlines trat) and quite a few discretionary points to spend. I think if you carried traits over you woulld soon find that the group are all paragon7s of virtue, since each generatoion could start where the previous one had left off.

The same bonuses and discretionary points your first knight had. You've traded paragons of family values for stagnation.


Not really strange at all. IF it were true, then you could always triust the son on an honest man to be honest, and so forth.

1. By contrast, a virtuous knight NEVER passes on more than one notable trait. (I've tried to teach you to be honest and hard working. Which did you learn?)
2. You always know who is honest; they are known for it.
3. Isn't the situation you present appropriate for the time? Honest because my father was. A skilled swordsman because my father was. A skilled smith because my father was.


I thought the same, but what seems to be happening in my campaign is that PC squaires get more glory and skill checks and tend to compesate for the lack of all around training with bettwer skill scores in a few keyt areas, and probably don7t suffer that much from the -1 to -3 peanlties as they are spread out over several skills, typically ones that the PC wouldn7t try to rely on anyway, as they are farily low.
As an example, I believe, with a combination of family traits an initial skill choices, you can have a knight start with a (non-combat) skill of 25, possibly higher with father's class bonuses. How close can a PC squire reasonably/reliably attain by age 21? A character, in my opinion should never suffer for being played as a PC for a larger portion of his game life.

Edit: phone acted up and submitted post early. >.<

Okay, I'm at home so I have some time for a more thorough post. Here is my understanding of the difference between starting a PC as a Knight at 21 versus starting as a 15 year old Squire and adding 6 years of previous experience. (Note: I am not addressing Knighting early which, I guess, follows the same rules as knighting at 21 but with more years of play time.)
(Assumes Cymric Character)

SkillSquire 15Knight 21
Awareness57
First Aid7 (A 15 year old NPC Squire has higher!)10
Hunting56
Battle710
Horsemanship710
Sword710
Spear Expertise710
Individual Skill ChoiceNothing!1 skill at 15
Individual Skill ChoiceNothing!Choose any 3 non-combat skill at 10
Individual Skill ChoiceNothing!4 Choices of +5 to a skill or +1 trait, passion or attribute
Individual Skill Choice10 discretionary points10 discretionary points
Squire's Compensation6 years of Previous Experience:
Glory prior to knighthood?
Solo Scenario (Own lands for 3-4 non-combat checks or Vassal Service
for 1 adventurous check) or actual adventuring (at my table, that's been
0-2 checks per year. As a non-frontliner, I expect a squire to get fewer
combat checks but may be able to make up for it with something else if
I focus on a skill my family is not known for.)
Winter Phase for Annual Glory (none from manor/maintenance?) plus
checks from manorial improvements (0+; in my case 5)
6 years of training (average 4.5 per year if always choose to distribute
skills; total of 18 points)
NA
Maximum Combat Skill at 2120+ Battle based on Glory Bonus/*120 Battle or Seige*1
Maximum Non-Combat Skill at 2130+*230*2


*1 Assumes 8 points put into Battle and +5 from father's class. (Squires could theoretically get up to +12 if they received a check and rolled a 20 every year for experience and had a Glory Point to place in it every year. In my inexperienced opinion, it more likely that the squire might squeeze out a point or two ahead of the knight.)
*2 Sacrifices a high weapon skill (though a knight can easily make up for it with discretionary points; for a knight, it's a more efficient use of skill choices) to place a 15 in a non-combat skill, +5 for father's class and up to +10 from family trait.

So, for the Squire, the situation is not as dire as I thought in terms of what he can accomplish by sacrificing diversity. However, I believe a squire's training should start diverse and build to a specialty over 6 years, not start with a specialty and build diversity over time. In addition, the 10 discretionary points are supposed to represent childhood training.

Well, I hope noone minds the overanalyzation of the two paths. It is unfortunate that it looks like I have develop the knight backwards to reach a point equivalent to starting at 21, not that I am trying to reach a 25 or 30 in any skill. Well, the game is tonight so hopefully I get some last minute feedback if anything is incorrect.

So, my GM's decision was that Traits not only can carry over but must. Despite that, I decided to have the son be a British Christian when the father was very Pagan. He also agreed that none of the solos see appropriate for a squire and that squire receive no glory for quality of maintenance/manorial income. We'll see how it goes.

The benefit is that at 19, the squire has 2,200 glory. :)

Okay, I'm at home so I have some time for a more thorough post. Here is my understanding of the difference between starting a PC as a Knight at 21 versus starting as a 15 year old Squire and adding 6 years of previous experience. (Note: I am not addressing Knighting early which, I guess, follows the same rules as knighting at 21 but with more years of play time.)
(Assumes Cymric Character)

SkillSquire 15Knight 21
Awareness57
First Aid7 (A 15 year old NPC Squire has higher!)10
Hunting56
Battle710
Horsemanship710
Sword710
Spear Expertise710
Individual Skill ChoiceNothing!1 skill at 15
Individual Skill ChoiceNothing!Choose any 3 non-combat skill at 10
Individual Skill ChoiceNothing!4 Choices of +5 to a skill or +1 trait, passion or attribute
Individual Skill Choice10 discretionary points10 discretionary points
Squire's Compensation6 years of Previous Experience:
Glory prior to knighthood?
Solo Scenario (Own lands for 3-4 non-combat checks or Vassal Service
for 1 adventurous check) or actual adventuring (at my table, that's been
0-2 checks per year. As a non-frontliner, I expect a squire to get fewer
combat checks but may be able to make up for it with something else if
I focus on a skill my family is not known for.)
Winter Phase for Annual Glory (none from manor/maintenance?) plus
checks from manorial improvements (0+; in my case 5)
6 years of training (average 4.5 per year if always choose to distribute
skills; total of 18 points)
NA
Maximum Combat Skill at 2120+ Battle based on Glory Bonus/*120 Battle or Seige*1
Maximum Non-Combat Skill at 2130+*230*2


*1 Assumes 8 points put into Battle and +5 from father's class. (Squires could theoretically get up to +12 if they received a check and rolled a 20 every year for experience and had a Glory Point to place in it every year. In my inexperienced opinion, it more likely that the squire might squeeze out a point or two ahead of the knight.)
*2 Sacrifices a high weapon skill (though a knight can easily make up for it with discretionary points; for a knight, it's a more efficient use of skill choices) to place a 15 in a non-combat skill, +5 for father's class and up to +10 from family trait.

So, for the Squire, the situation is not as dire as I thought in terms of what he can accomplish by sacrificing diversity. However, I believe a squire's training should start diverse and build to a specialty over 6 years, not start with a specialty and build diversity over time. In addition, the 10 discretionary points are supposed to represent childhood training.

Well, I hope noone minds the overanalyzation of the two paths. It is unfortunate that it looks like I have develop the knight backwards to reach a point equivalent to starting at 21, not that I am trying to reach a 25 or 30 in any skill. Well, the game is tonight so hopefully I get some last minute feedback if anything is incorrect.

This is ll very good! I do have one question. Are we sure that if you give 6years of previous experience it includes adventures / solo's? I was lead to believe that previous experience was simply point spending? am I wrong here? lol

In Knights and Ladies, it includes a solo; KAP does not, nor does it include any winter phase, IIRC.

In Knights and Ladies, it includes a solo; KAP does not, nor does it include any winter phase, IIRC.
Oh okay. it seems that there are a lot of possibilities here. I like that it is kind of a GM choice as to how he feels about it. Thats what I like about this game and hope to maintain , is its bit of lax rules in some areas that dont necessarily SPELL OUT everything. It gives each game its own freedom to do it your own way! ;D

In Knights and Ladies, it includes a solo; KAP does not, nor does it include any winter phase, IIRC.
Oh okay. it seems that there are a lot of possibilities here. I like that it is kind of a GM choice as to how he feels about it. Thats what I like about this game and hope to maintain , is its bit of lax rules in some areas that dont necessarily SPELL OUT everything. It gives each game its own freedom to do it your own way! ;D


I think it would depend on just how you are creating and aging a squire. For instance, if you are wrting him up at age 18 rather than from 15 on.

THe way I run it, is that once the character is played, he can do whatever solos are approraite and train during thw winterphase, and net glory each year. Even if he isn't being actively played. That helps to keep back up characters viable.

On the other hand, if a squire is being written up as older than 15, I don7t given the solos, but do allow then to get glory from battles (and other event)S as per K&L, along with 1 year of training per year over 15. I do not give them annual glory or solos for the years prior to the character being written up and played. Such character do start with more glory from thier farther, though, as they will get 1/1oth of whatvger thier farther earned over those years s8ince they were squired.

One suprise that we discovered was that PC squires who are earning a good n8umber of skill checks and glory, can get away with not taking the 1d6+1 skill points for training, and can, instead concentrate on imrpoving characterstics. Since they are below 21, that included SIZ, and a couple points of SIZ can make a big difference in the long run. I've got a few SIZ20+ characters in my group now, and one of them is making a move towards a 7d6 damage bonus.