I require my players to make an APP roll at court which influences their interactions with the eligible ladies. Naturally they have decided that better grooming will help them find a wife, so Sir Aeron (APP 4) invested some of his precious treated in fine court clothes. Per the rules, the modifier is +1 per libra spent. However in KaL I see that a lady can hire a hairdresser for a libra or two who can give her 1d6+3 to her APP. These values seem out of whack.

I was thinking about bumping up the bonus for clothing to +2/L. But I don't want to make it too easy for a wealthy knight to buy good looks. So I started wondering whether there should be a maximum bonus that can be "purchased". After all Air Aeron is pretty ugly. How much can makeover really help (teen movies notwithstanding).

I require my players to make an APP roll at court which influences their interactions with the eligible ladies. Naturally they have decided that better grooming will help them find a wife, so Sir Aeron (APP 4) invested some of his precious treated in fine court clothes. Per the rules, the modifier is +1 per libra spent. However in KaL I see that a lady can hire a hairdresser for a libra or two who can give her 1d6+3 to her APP. These values seem out of whack.

I was thinking about bumping up the bonus for clothing to +2/L. But I don't want to make it too easy for a wealthy knight to buy good looks. So I started wondering whether there should be a maximum bonus that can be "purchased". After all Air Aeron is pretty ugly. How much can makeover really help (teen movies notwithstanding).

Appearance 4!? He seems to have bigger problems! he's about to UGLY out of the game!!!!! hahahah. :D

A knight generally doesn't have the hair for a hairdresser to work with so you can chalk it up to females having an advantage in social situations ... I know, when does that happen?

Also, remember that clothes deteriorate/go out of fashion. That halving of the value will begin to hurt for knights depending on nice clothes to keep their bonuses up. At least they should be getting Glory for conspicuous consumption.

Appearance 4!? He seems to have bigger problems! he's about to UGLY out of the game!!!!! hahahah. :D


No kidding! He's really close. One major wound that causes APP reduction (say, a Saxon axe to the face) and he's bedridden. Assuming he's Cymric, he's already suffered some APP loss since 4 is below the minimum for starting characters (at least in v5.)

As for the topic of the post, a rough and ready rule I'd use is APP couldn't increase more than the value it already has. So a 4 could become an 8 temporarily. Or a 9 could become an 18 temporarily. Every girl's crazy for a sharp dressed man.

IIRC, Sir Gawain has an adventure where a lady must choose between an ugly dwarf and a handsome suitor – and she chooses the dwarf. It’s not that the dwarf’s clothes disguised his ugliness, it’s that he had other redeeming qualities. Think Cyrano de Bergerac.

Just make sure that Sir Aeron’s low APP is just being unshapely and not body odor, etc.

I require my players to make an APP roll at court which influences their interactions with the eligible ladies. Naturally they have decided that better grooming will help them find a wife, so Sir Aeron (APP 4) invested some of his precious treated in fine court clothes. Per the rules, the modifier is +1 per libra spent. However in KaL I see that a lady can hire a hairdresser for a libra or two who can give her 1d6+3 to her APP. These values seem out of whack.


Will it help if I say it includes the latest in make up and skin care too? (Nothing like some mare dung to help those zits!)

Note that it's 1d6+3 each time. Maybe 1d6 is better.
It is a large bonus because I want skill to affect APP as much as £.
Kidding



I was thinking about bumping up the bonus for clothing to +2/L. But I don't want to make it too easy for a wealthy knight to buy good looks. So I started wondering whether there should be a maximum bonus that can be "purchased". After all Air Aeron is pretty ugly. How much can makeover really help (teen movies notwithstanding).


Notwithstanding! Heck, man, who do you think these ladies are?
And the entire teenage romance thing is encapsulated in Romance!
And I can barely read some of those Romance adventures without thinking of teen movies.

I guess I am saying the movie fantasies deserve a respectful place in the genre.

But the unlimited bonus opportunity also reflects on the medieval way of thinking about art and beauty, wherein the raw value of a piece of art was more important than its artistic beauty, its creativity and craftsmanship. Weigh the gold, evaluate the jewels, and that's its value (relics excepted).

Clothing, being pieces of art and beauty, can be measured the same way--that is, a +APP

My players like random generation, and Sir Aeron is the runt of the group. He rolled three 1s for appearance, and the total off all 5 attributes is just 46. But he's just as deadly with a sword or lance and has the highest first aid and battle skill in the group. Actually in the very first combat of the game he rolled a critical on his lance attack. Then during the following winter he fumbled his chaste roll so I made him roll twice on the childbirth table. Both results were identical - a son was born and the mother died in childbirth. So Aeron's lance is developing a deadly reputation.

The player is enjoying the challenge (and his backup character is much better). He's decided that the poor APP score is mostly due to Aeron's terrible lisp. I believe he plans to spend some of his training and glory points to improve his app score.

Also consider: the fashion bonus for ladies requires a payment each year. The bonus for clothing is paid once, and as long as you take care of your finery, bring it out only for special occasions, and don't become poor or impoverished, that clothing does not deteriorate. So it's not so bad.

And think of those teen movies that Greg mentioned: the girl everyone thinks is a frump gets a makeover, and bam, she's suddenly the hottest girl around :)

I believe he plans to spend some of his training and glory points to improve his app score.


Oh yes, I'm sure he will :) I can't imagine a player in that situation not doing that.

The bonus for clothing is paid once, and as long as you take care of your finery, bring it out only for special occasions, and don't become poor or impoverished, that clothing does not deteriorate.

Are you sure? I thought it did deteriorate. I'll have to double check. It's in the KAP 5 Main book and has not changed in another source book, correct?

Yes, clothing does deteriorate, but there are two qualifications:

The rules state that your clothes deteriorate, halving value each year. (I'll come back to this*)

But also, Knights & ladies (I think) includes a rule for your Best Outfit: which you take care of, keep in a trunk when not in use, bring out for court occasions and don't wear all year round. This outfit does not deteriorate.

*Also, a common house rule (and one that I think Greg uses too) is to assume the standard clothing worn does not deteriorate - the upkeep is paid for by your liege if a household knight, or included in your household cost if a landed knight. It's handwaved away, so as long as you aren't dropping to Poor or Impoverished.

here is my current text

Clothing
Fancy clothing adds to APP. Basically, each £ of value over normal adds +1 APP while wearing it. Thus, a knight’s normal clothing value is £1, so if he was wearing clothing worth £3, he would have +2 APP.
Clothing that is worn all the time always loses one half its value each year. Although part of the annual upkeep of a knight and his family of any rank includes repairs, etc., to maintain clothes appropriate to their rank, it does not cover the cost for repairing fancier clothing. Occasional use does not wear it out, so most knights and ladies keep their best clothing stashed away in a chest, and take it out only for special occasions. This prevents the natural wear and tear that brings about the loss in value.
Jewels also add to APP when worn, and of course, they do not deteriorate over time.

Your Best Clothes
Most people of the Knightly class have their everyday work clothing (worn every day, or for men, under armor), plus fancier clothing to wear at court. These are calculated to be about £1 in value, and all are included in the normal costs of being a knight. So knights and their wives clothing worth £1 for normal court work. These are their “everyday clothes,” of good material and well made.
Nobles also have a special suit of clothing for special occasions. These are your Good Clothes. They are normally stored safely in a trunk somewhere to be preserved from daily wear. Clothes that are carefully packed away, regularly checked for moths, stitched when buttons are loose, etc. do not wear out. (They will eventually go out of fashion, of course.)
Most people wear their Nice Clothes at court and courtiers wear them all the time. Clothing gets worn out. Clothes lost ½ their value each year through normal wear. It is useful to keep a note somewhere of the most expensive value before it wore out. The impact is different to say, “She wears 1 Librum clothing,” and “She wears one Librium’s worth of clothing, but you can see it is the remnants of a once glorious 20 Librum outfit.”

Why not then buy jewels to wear with everyday clothing?

What do you think about using a different conversion rate for jewelry versus clothing. IE, adds only + value in £/10 to App but does not deteriorate (still may be affected by appropriateness to the event), with the additional caveat that it must be worn with clothing of the same or greater value. You could further require that the requirement be reciprocal, making maintaining yourself in high fashion expensive.

Because if you wore jewels with everday clothing in court you would be laughed out. :D

While we are discussing appearance in general , i have to ask , what good is it? Not trying to be cynical here , just asking practically! I think it adds color and can be a very fun thing if a knight has a high appearance , but I was wondering how everyone uses it in your games. What situations do you all find it useful in , and if a knight does have a 30 appearance , aside from being remarkable...Does it truly affect the game that much? Just wondering , because I am not sure there are anyy hard and fast rules about when to use app. Any examples? :-\

I keep a relationship chart with the PKs and the eligible ladies at court they are attempting to woo, based on some materials Sir Pramalot came up with. Basically they can earn points by doing things to impress the ladies - flirting, dancing, giving them hunting trophies, etc. The higher the score the more killer the lady will accept a proposal. Appearance is used as a modifier - a successful APP check at the beginning of a court session or other encounter will make their other successes count more. It's not exactly period appropriate, but it gives the players foals and feedback in their interactions at court - as well as a reason to care about their social skills. It seems to be working pretty well. Several have already invested in bowers for their manors for example, plus the clothing purchases I mentioned earlier.

While we are discussing appearance in general , i have to ask , what good is it?


Good question, actually.
Here are some uses that I have acquired through testing and use. Comments are welcome, as always.
for there will surely be some controversy here!!

APP
Appearance is one’s exterior look, being visual and thus entirely outward and superficial. Appearance provokes deep responses in human beings, automatic and normally outside of our awareness, never mind being within our control. (Exceptions exist, but not among knights.)
APP Interpretation
01-05. Ugly. See below
06-09. Plain, unattractive, flawed
10-15. Handsome, pretty
16-20. Superlative; beautiful (women) or spectacular (men); gorgeous, dazzling. See below

Appearance is only useful when it can be seen. It has no affect when men are clad in concealing armor.

Superlative Appearance
Gorgeousness has its advantages, and disadvantages.
In a crowd of equals, the most handsome person will be addressed first, as if he or she is the leader (since handsome people have Honor, the most handsome is the most honorable!).
Everyone is always watching, especially when the beautiful person is not watching. Thus it is very difficult for them to do anything in secret, including whispering at a feast, speaking to anyone, and even how long is spent with him, or her, or that group over there.

Appearance Bonus
Each superlative APP point (16+)grants a +1 bonus to the following:
Flirt: Natural attraction makes it easier to Flirt.
Intrigue: The handsome fellow, giving even just a little bit of unusual attention to the staff, gets information much easier than usual.
Orate, Singing, Play, Dancing: People prefer to be entertained by pretty people, because even if the performance is not as good, at least they had a pleasant evening observing the attractive performer.

It does not affect Romance.

Ugly Appearance
Ugliness carries a taint with it. Commoners lack Honor, and are thus less appealing to the noble eye.
OPPOSITE OF ABOVE--text not complete
Ugliness has its advantages and disadvantages.
In a crowd of equals, the ugliest person will not be addressed. At all if possible.
If something goes wrong, the ugliest person is always blamed first.
Nobody looks at you. In a crowd you are practically invisible, able to stand nearby to whisperers, or in a room perhaps entirely unseen, as if you are one of the servants.

Honor
All heroic characters are handsome, and all their ladies are beautiful. Being ugly is a terrible disadvantage since people immediately judge a person on his superficial traits. Thus, at character generation, each point of APP below 10 costs 1 Honor. Losing APP due to major wounds or aging does not diminish Honor, however. Scars from wounds are a note of courage and strength, and counteract the loss. Likewise, aging adds to honor in exact proportion to losses.

While we are discussing appearance in general , i have to ask , what good is it?


Good question, actually.
Here are some uses that I have acquired through testing and use. Comments are welcome, as always.
for there will surely be some controversy here!!

APP
Appearance is one’s exterior look, being visual and thus entirely outward and superficial. Appearance provokes deep responses in human beings, automatic and normally outside of our awareness, never mind being within our control. (Exceptions exist, but not among knights.)
APP Interpretation
01-05. Ugly. See below
06-09. Plain, unattractive, flawed
10-15. Handsome, pretty
16-20. Superlative; beautiful (women) or spectacular (men); gorgeous, dazzling. See below

Appearance is only useful when it can be seen. It has no affect when men are clad in concealing armor.

Superlative Appearance
Gorgeousness has its advantages, and disadvantages.
In a crowd of equals, the most handsome person will be addressed first, as if he or she is the leader (since handsome people have Honor, the most handsome is the most honorable!).
Everyone is always watching, especially when the beautiful person is not watching. Thus it is very difficult for them to do anything in secret, including whispering at a feast, speaking to anyone, and even how long is spent with him, or her, or that group over there.

Appearance Bonus
Each superlative APP point (16+)grants a +1 bonus to the following:
Flirt: Natural attraction makes it easier to Flirt.
Intrigue: The handsome fellow, giving even just a little bit of unusual attention to the staff, gets information much easier than usual.
Orate, Singing, Play, Dancing: People prefer to be entertained by pretty people, because even if the performance is not as good, at least they had a pleasant evening observing the attractive performer.

It does not affect Romance.

Ugly Appearance
Ugliness carries a taint with it. Commoners lack Honor, and are thus less appealing to the noble eye.
OPPOSITE OF ABOVE--text not complete
Ugliness has its advantages and disadvantages.
In a crowd of equals, the ugliest person will not be addressed. At all if possible.
If something goes wrong, the ugliest person is always blamed first.
Nobody looks at you. In a crowd you are practically invisible, able to stand nearby to whisperers, or in a room perhaps entirely unseen, as if you are one of the servants.

Honor
All heroic characters are handsome, and all their ladies are beautiful. Being ugly is a terrible disadvantage since people immediately judge a person on his superficial traits. Thus, at character generation, each point of APP below 10 costs 1 Honor. Losing APP due to major wounds or aging does not diminish Honor, however. Scars from wounds are a note of courage and strength, and counteract the loss. Likewise, aging adds to honor in exact proportion to losses.



That makes a lot of sense. Now I can USE appearance more. It just seemed that there was a little worry on this thread about players having app that was too high , so thats why I asked the question. Just too see what the ramifications would be for lettingsomeone have a crazy-high app score! :)

Honor
All heroic characters are handsome, and all their ladies are beautiful. Being ugly is a terrible disadvantage since people immediately judge a person on his superficial traits. Thus, at character generation, each point of APP below 10 costs 1 Honor. Losing APP due to major wounds or aging does not diminish Honor, however. Scars from wounds are a note of courage and strength, and counteract the loss. Likewise, aging adds to honor in exact proportion to losses.


Am I to understand that a character with a 7 APP in character creation is less honourable than one with an 11 APP? Just a straight penalty of three to his Honour passion? Now, I know i come from >MY< prejudice in a "beautiful on the inside" romanticism, but is appearance (via the APP score) that important? Were nobles that callow?

1. Honor is an odd Passion. It is a mix of both internal values and the perception of those around you. You lose Honor for being accused of something and regain some or all by defending yourself (not necessarily proving your innocence).
2. Yes. If you have an embarrassingly ugly child, the proper thing to do is to lock them in the basement or "donate" them to a church.

This coming from a player whose last knight had a 7 or 8 Appearance and dropped down to 6 from hits to the face. :D

Am I to understand that a character with a 7 APP in character creation is less honourable than one with an 11 APP?


Yes.



Just a straight penalty of three to his Honour passion? Now, I know i come from >MY< prejudice in a "beautiful on the inside" romanticism, but is appearance (via the APP score) that important? Were nobles that callow?


Yes.

Honor
All heroic characters are handsome, and all their ladies are beautiful. Being ugly is a terrible disadvantage since people immediately judge a person on his superficial traits. Thus, at character generation, each point of APP below 10 costs 1 Honor. Losing APP due to major wounds or aging does not diminish Honor, however. Scars from wounds are a note of courage and strength, and counteract the loss. Likewise, aging adds to honor in exact proportion to losses.


Am I to understand that a character with a 7 APP in character creation is less honourable than one with an 11 APP? Just a straight penalty of three to his Honour passion? Now, I know i come from >MY< prejudice in a "beautiful on the inside" romanticism, but is appearance (via the APP score) that important? Were nobles that callow?


Don't forget your Shakespeare. Richard III was obviously an evil, deceitful man because of his malformed shoulder.

Are there any bonuses to Honour from having a ridiculously high APP?

Also, are these rules you've suggested Greg going to/have appeared in any source-books or are they effectively house-rules?

Are there any bonuses to Honour from having a ridiculously high APP?


No



Also, are these rules you've suggested Greg going to/have appeared in any source-books or are they effectively house-rules?


They are house rules unless they appear in print
I will use these myself, invite others to do so, and to comment here

Some day they may appear in print

I will use these myself, invite others to do so, and to comment here


I am a fan of T. H. White and really enjoyed his treatment of Lancelot. Not that I am pushing for an errata on Lancelot's APP. Well, maybe I am, just not too ardently. ;)

Fortunately Sir Ysgarran's APP is a goodly 10 points higher than Sir Aeron's. Nevertheless, my modern-day sensibilities are aggrieved.

However, I will do my personal best to RP the sentiments that Greg and Percarde have shown.

I think it would be fun to have it in print, would make my obsession with pretty characters actually useful! Will definitely be using these rules in my game.

I'm presuming you decided not to have high APP increase honour for balance as there seem to be quite a few benefits to being pretty already right?

I will use these myself, invite others to do so, and to comment here


I am a fan of T. H. White and really enjoyed his treatment of Lancelot. Not that I am pushing for an errata on Lancelot's APP. Well, maybe I am, just not too ardently. ;)


Excellent option for your campaign! Please share with us the results of the ugly Lance!

I wasn't too taken with that particular part of White's masterpiece.

So, concerning APP:
Remember, these instructions are what the rest of the world does and accepts, not necessarily what PCs think.



Fortunately Sir Ysgarran's APP is a goodly 10 points higher than Sir Aeron's. Nevertheless, my modern-day sensibilities are aggrieved.


As are mine!
And when we think about it, Ysgarran's probably offended too, right?
It is not as if he had some choice.
And will he try to do something about it? Will it affect his other behavior?
That is the stuff of the game--



However, I will do my personal best to RP the sentiments that Greg and Percarde have shown.

I think it would be fun to have it in print, would make my obsession with pretty characters actually useful! Will definitely be using these rules in my game.

I'm presuming you decided not to have high APP increase honour for balance as there seem to be quite a few benefits to being pretty already right?


While true, that was not my reasoning.
I just simply have not discovered anything that emphasizes over-handsomeness

*nods* So it's not so much that they thought someone who was amazingly handsome was more honourable just that handsome people in general were honourable?

Either way, I think I'll definitely be trying out these rules when I start running Pendragon in the Fall. :)

Whenever someone like Tristram or Lancelot or Parzival or Gareth shows up, other people will not shut up about how beautiful their faces are or how well-formed their limbs are or how their noble countenances match their noble souls or whatever. I guess that to a degree, correlation does equal causation, at least where beauty and honor are concerned.

I am a fan of T. H. White and really enjoyed his treatment of Lancelot. Not that I am pushing for an errata on Lancelot's APP. Well, maybe I am, just not too ardently. ;)

Excellent option for your campaign! Please share with us the results of the ugly Lance!


Alas, I am not in charge. Maybe when the DM chair rolls around to me in my other group...





Fortunately Sir Ysgarran's APP is a goodly 10 points higher than Sir Aeron's. Nevertheless, my modern-day sensibilities are aggrieved.

As are mine!
And when we think about it, Ysgarran's probably offended too, right?
It is not as if he had some choice.
And will he try to do something about it? Will it affect his other behavior?
That is the stuff of the game--


Sir Aeron is quite a harpist as well as a master of first aid. He also has other redeeming qualities (like the fact that he makes the rest of us look good by nature of comparison). We'll keep him around a while--at least as long as his 22(ish) HP allow.

I've been pondering, for my own campaign of allowing high APP (16+) to gain a yearly Glory bonus, in a similar vein as Traits, Passions, etc. Firstly, I think it would allow a good way for ladies to gain glory, due to the fact that they seem to (generally) have a higher APP. Secondly, someone's appearance is the sort of thing that people talk and gossip about, and the fact that a number of ladies' primarily mentioned trait is their beauty (Ygraine, Guenever, etc), it seems to work well with awarding glory. Similarly, I'd give it to knights also, as they're hampering their ability to get glory in more traditional manners by taking lower amounts in those other stats.

Thoughts?

-RI.

I've been pondering, for my own campaign of allowing high APP (16+) to gain a yearly Glory bonus,


I think this is an excellent idea. Surely the ladies would gossip more about the deeds of Sir Dashing rather than Sir Hideous.

Snatched for my campaign as well.