I just read the Pious/Worldly essay on Greg's page http://www.gspendragon.com/pagans1.html. As an English (language, not nationality) geek, I am having a hard time with the otherworldly transition (being very literal-minded/right-brained). The "absentmindedness" clause seems (to me) to be more of a penalty than a descriptor.

Is the intent a distinction of "committed to temporal life" vs. "committed to the afterlife"? Is the intent something altogether different?

I can get behind Piety as a passion. I just (still) don't get the traits (before and after).

I take piety as being primarily concerned with extra-worldly affairs and worldly being concern with immediacy (our world). It's a difficulty concept to wrap into two words. I like your phrasing of committed to temporal vs afterlife.


Culture that values Wordly over Otherworldly: The mechanisms that power the world (god) are not important, even if we acknowledge and honor their presence. This world, this body, and these actions are what matter most.
Culture that values Otherworldly over Wordly: God and the afterlife is most important, even if we try to lead good lives here on this plane of existence. The afterlife is what matters most.


Christian

Otherworldly 0, Worldly 20: Value is gained through this world, the other doesn't even exist or is unimportant (but don't admit that publicly!).
Otherworldly 20, Worldly 0 ("perfect"): I do good deeds (or pretend) in this life only so I may reap my rewards in Heaven. Only heaven is meaningful.


Pagan

Otherworldly 0, Worldly 20 ("perfect"): Might or might not place value on gods. Only this life and this time really matters.
Otherworldly 20, Worldly 0: ??? Anyone care to fill this one in?

I've never understood why the trait pair isn't called Spiritual/Worldly. By using these terms it goes beyond religion and faith. A high spiritual could mean focus on the afterlife, but it could also be idealism or intellectualism. A roman student of Plato could have a high Spiritual, without being religious in the normal sense of the word.




Pagan
[li]Otherworldly 20, Worldly 0: ??? Anyone care to fill this one in?



In my campaign such a character could be considered fey, possessed, spirit ridden or cursed. A high otherwordly (or spiritual) wouldn't indicate a holy person, but a person that has fallen victim to evil gods and spirits.

I've never understood why the trait pair...


Here is why.
In the process of publication, at a point decisions must be made.
They are not always the best decisions, because sometimes I am continually going back and forth on something--like pious spiritual otherworldly spacecase. They are based on whichever option has the upper hand at the moment of deadline.
I was trying to use those terms to describe a common spiritual differentiation upon finding sacredness in the material world or the immaterial world; AND to settle Christianity on one side, Paganism on the other for simplicity's sake.
Well, in truth, I actually do not like the vocabulary of Pious/Worldly. Pagans are every bit as pious as Christians, and some christian religions are every bit as Worldly--I mean recognizing the sacredness of the material world.




...isn't called Spiritual/Worldly.



I think that is an excellent differentiation.

Also,
I have even been considering making Piety a passion, not a Trait at all.

I've never understood why the trait pair...


Here is why.
In the process of publication, at a point decisions must be made.
They are not always the best decisions, because sometimes I am continually going back and forth on something--like pious spiritual otherworldly spacecase. They are based on whichever option has the upper hand at the moment of deadline.
I was trying to use those terms to describe a common spiritual differentiation upon finding sacredness in the material world or the immaterial world; AND to settle Christianity on one side, Paganism on the other for simplicity's sake.
Well, in truth, I actually do not like the vocabulary of Pious/Worldly. Pagans are every bit as pious as Christians, and some christian religions are every bit as Worldly--I mean recognizing the sacredness of the material world.




...isn't called Spiritual/Worldly.



I think that is an excellent differentiation.

Also,
I have even been considering making Piety a passion, not a Trait at all.




Can I say:
Spiritual/Worldly - best description I have seen so far, and a concept wise I think easy for players to understand.

Chris

I've never understood why the trait pair isn't called Spiritual/Worldly. By using these terms it goes beyond religion and faith. A high spiritual could mean focus on the afterlife, but it could also be idealism or intellectualism. A roman student of Plato could have a high Spiritual, without being religious in the normal sense of the word.


Thanks. This is pretty much what I was looking for with the bonus of being worded in a manner I can understand. 8)

I've never understood why the trait pair isn't called Spiritual/Worldly. By using these terms it goes beyond religion and faith. A high spiritual could mean focus on the afterlife, but it could also be idealism or intellectualism. A roman student of Plato could have a high Spiritual, without being religious in the normal sense of the word.[---]

this is what we've been running with for years - for exactly those reasons. I think I've mentioned this before in a similar thread. in our group we have two interpretations of what being very spiritual means. one (held by Pius map Bron from Powys and Sebastian le Blanc from Long Isles) is much about prayer, religious ceremonies before major activities and such (sometimes leading to extremes like praying instead of fighting when highly outnumbered). the other (held by the classically schooled and highly principled Thomas Blackbird, roman-blooded noble from Eburacum) is more about a classical idealism molded to fit a Chivalry-influenced world view (like really believeing that Right Makes Might and such). yes, so. blahdiblah. I think you get the idea.

// M

Spiritual/Worldly - best description I have seen so far, and a concept wise I think easy for players to understand.

Well, the confusion comes from the modern day meaning of "worldly", meaning as much as "interested in mundane, temporal goods & pleasure only". What is important, I think, in the Pious/Worldly discussion, is that in the game BOTH terms refer to a concept of sacredness -- as Greg pointed out. In that sense, worldly pagans and pious Christians are (paradoxically) "both as pious". That is because Pagans are not "worldly" in the modern sense of the world: they are, of course, no Nietzschean nihilists, nor marxist materialists. They do not think that the only thing that matters is the world as we know it, neglecting the invisible world of soul, spirits, natural powers, gods, etc.
Therefore, I think it would be better to qualify both attitudes as Spiritual, while Worldly could be reserved to those evil materialist cynics who neglect the soul (like sorcerors or merchants).

Outside the context of the game, Pious has always been opposed to Worldly in a historical sense: the way of the historical medieval Christian priest vs. the way of the medieval warrior. Christian "worldly" medieval knights were just as convinced of the existence of the metaphysical world (= the Otherworld, God, etc.) as the most exalted monk. It's just that William the Marshal, for instance, had a different view on what it was to respect God than the priests had. The pious priests said is was vital to live by certain rules = symbolic obligations and rituals, whereas William thought is was enough to lead your life as a warrior = material care for your lord, family and those who depended on you, with the intention of doing Good. And he then paid the priests to pray for him and his household to assure their place in Heaven, which was the (only) justification of their very existence...