Post the Unit Commander Roll results and discussion about what to do here.

OK, I had a fighting chance of beating the Unit Intensity this round so we could 'Push Forward' and start to drop our battle zone modifiers, but then I went and stuffed it up with a Battle roll of 1.

So, that means we get to choose from the following tactics:

Attack vs Two
Run Away!
Pull Back
Stand Fast

There are other tactics available for the 'Partial Success' results, but the preconditions don't apply to us.

I think 'Attack vs Two' is foolish at this juncture and 'Stand Fast' won't change our situation (which means we will continue to run a significant chance of being double-teamed next round), so it comes down to a choice between 'Pull Back' or 'Run Away!'.

Before making a final decision I'd like input from my two colleagues, plus I'd also like a clarification as to what (if any) difference there is between 'Recoil 1 zone' and 'Recoil 1 zone; disordered and engaged' (the Loss results of 'Pull Back' and 'Run Away!' respectively). I was under the impression that a 'Recoil' result tagged you with the disordered condition for next round anyway and you don't get the disengaged condition unless you get an explicit 'disengaged' result in the previous unit result - if those suppositions are correct then these two results are logically identical.

Regards
Luke

I think pulling back is the best move.

Before making a final decision I'd like input from my two colleagues, plus I'd also like a clarification as to what (if any) difference there is between 'Recoil 1 zone' and 'Recoil 1 zone; disordered and engaged' (the Loss results of 'Pull Back' and 'Run Away!' respectively). I was under the impression that a 'Recoil' result tagged you with the disordered condition for next round anyway and you don't get the disengaged condition unless you get an explicit 'disengaged' result in the previous unit result - if those suppositions are correct then these two results are logically identical.

Here's the text from the rules:


Pull Back
Pull Back is an intentional move backwards, in an orderly fashion even while constantly fighting. It is a response to an enemy Attack. Pull Back to get a rest, or to prepare to charge, or whenever you want to get out of combat.
Combat Modifier: -5
Prerequisite: Engaged, Partial Success or Tie at Battle
Zone Change: Maybe
Fight Against: Three random enemy units, Gamemaster chooses 1
Unit Results
Result Effect
Triumph -2 Intensity; unit withdraws 1 zone intact and breaks off, begins as Disengaged next round.
Win Unit withdraws 1 zone intact and breaks off, starts Disengaged next round
Loss Unit recoils 1 zone
Crush +2 Intensity; unit Broken


Run Away!
Break off combat at any cost and flee—i.e. rout. This is not combat, but flight. The difference between this and Sprint is that Run Away is usually imposed on fighting men by defeat, while sprinting is voluntarily done by non-combatants. To escape, pit the player’s Horsemanship skill versus the Intensity, or if he is on foot, his DEX versus the enemy unit’s combat skill. If the fleeing unit was disengaged at the start of the round when the flight begins, they get a +20 bonus to Horsemanship or DEX.
Run away when you are obviously outclassed, are being beaten up badly, or under other conditions where superiority is the enemy’s.
Prerequisite: None
Zone Change: Maybe
Fight Against: Player’s choice between three random units.
Unit Results
Result Effect
Triumph Unit moves back 1 or 2 Zones; Disengaged.
Win Unit moves back 1 Zone; Disordered and Disengaged.
Loss Unit recoils 1 Zone, Disordered and Engaged next round.
Crush Broken next round; +2 Intensity.

Looking at definitions elsewhere in the book, it does describe Recoil as, 'Involuntary move backward which always ends with being Disordered.'

In other words, it looks to me as if you're right Luke.

I say pull back gives us a good chance of another charge, though I don't like the -5.

OK so going by the text Merlin quoted - if we Pull Back we take a -5 to our skill and we don't get a choice regarding our opponent, whereas if we Run Away we use our full Horsemanship skill but it's against the intensity (currently 29 - so it's entirely possible we'd end up all being critted, which would almost certainly Crush us).

Outcomes are the same for Loss and Crush, but we have to Triumph our Run Away to avoid being Disordered (and get a choice of pulling back 2 zones); whereas either a Triumph or a Win at Pull Back is enough to disengage ourselves and move back one zone.

Based on all that, I think Pull Back is the better option even with the -5 to our skill. So that's what we'll do.

Now we just have to hope that we draw a forgiving opponent in the discovery phase, so we get a decent chance of pulling off an orderly withdrawal.

Regards
Luke

As you seek to pull back from the fray, you hear a chant go up in the barbarian tongue. They're not going to let you retreat without opposition. A frenzied bunch of spear wielding saxons run towards you, banging their spears against their shields as they do so. The more alert of you also notcie a group of Saxons clutching javelins hovering around behind them...

*****

Ok, rolling for your opponents, I get: 2,8,12. These are 'howling warriors', javelineers & chanting warriors. I'm choosing the latter, the chanting warriors.

Before we move on to deal with your melee against them, there is always the chance that the javelineers might opt to hurl their javelins at you, even though you're not engaged against you (see pg. 46 BoB, bottom left). Rolling a d6 I get 3, you're safe this round, you'd have needed 1 or 2 to have been attacked.

Your Melee Skill = Weapon Skill ± Immediate Conditions ± Unit Cohesion Modifiers ± Battlefield Obstacles
= skill -5 (pulling back) +5 (you are mounted, they are not) therefore you get to use your straight skill score, not so bad after all!

Their Melee Skill = Weapon Skill ± Immediate Conditions ± Unit Cohesion Modifiers ± Battlefield Obstacles
= 20 -5 (on foot against mounted) = 15

So what I want from each of you are the following rolls:

1) d20 melee roll
2) Damage roll - in case you hit
3) Horsemanship roll - in case you don't and need to try and hang on to that steed under the impact of their attack
4) Followers melee roll at skill 15
5) And for those of you that have them still, squire rolls

Think that's everything!

Ben

Passions would come first, right?

Since we're engaged by Saxons, and my Hate (Saxons) is 19, I must roll or attempt a prudent check. I'll go ahead and roll.

Hate (Saxons) [19]: 16. Success, +10 to weapon skill
Two-handed sword [20+10]: 1+10=11. Ugh. Well it's a success at least. Note I do not have a shield to use on a partial success.
Damage [7d6]: 24
Horsemanship [19]: 4
Vassals [15]: 13
Squire [18]: 16

Passions would come first, right? right!


Since we're engaged by Saxons, and my Hate (Saxons) is 19, I must roll or attempt a prudent check. I'll go ahead and roll.

Hate (Saxons) [19]: 16. Success, +10 to weapon skill Helpful!


Two-handed sword [20+10]: 1+10=11. Ugh. Well it's a success at least. Note I do not have a shield to use on a partial success.
Damage [7d6]: 24
Horsemanship [19]: 4
Vassals [15]: 13
Squire [18]: 16

I rolled a 16 for the chanting warrior. Normally that would be a success, but seeing as you're mounted and he's not, its a failure. That passion has just saved your life!
You deal him a significant wound, clattering your blade across his shoulders. He staggers, but manages to keep on his feet. Just.
I rolled a 19 against your followers. They too get through unscathed - as does your squire!

Thats ONE WIN: NO LOSES for your unit so far.

OK, Sir Meliaunce spurs forward and clashes with one of their champions who is coming just a little too close. He also has a Hate(Saxons) and will attempt to invoke this passion to aid him at this juncture (he needs a 15 or less).

Passion[15] rolls 2 a success, I'll take a +10 to my Spear Expertise
Spear Expertise[20 - 5 + 5 +10 = 30] rolls a 16+10 = 26, a critical.
Damage[5d6 doubled to 10d6] rolls 36
Horsemanship[17] rolls a 6 (a success, but probably won't be needed)
No squires left
Followers[15] rolls a 2, so a low success for my people.

Hopefully that's going to be enough to give us a second Win which should get us over the line for at least a unit win.

Regards
Luke

OK, Sir Meliaunce spurs forward and clashes with one of their champions who is coming just a little too close. He also has a Hate(Saxons) and will attempt to invoke this passion to aid him at this juncture (he needs a 15 or less).

Passion[15] rolls 2 a success, I'll take a +10 to my Spear Expertise Nice!


Spear Expertise[20 - 5 + 5 +10 = 30] rolls a 16+10 = 26, a critical.
Damage[5d6 doubled to 10d6] rolls 36
Horsemanship[17] rolls a 6 (a success, but probably won't be needed)
No squires left
Followers[15] rolls a 2, so a low success for my people.


For the chanting warrior I rolled a 2, but even with his partial success you dispatch him with ease!
Against your followers, I rolled a 3 - a higher success than yours (!) and so I fear you lose one of your followers. I rolled a 1. A moment of great success for Sir Meliaunce quickly turns into despair as he finds his younger brother Sir Meredith is slain... (a passion possibility here for next round)

That's TWO WINS: NO LOSES so far.

Ok, as I understand it the saxon that Meliaunce just put down could be claimed as a prisoner. One of the the things a squire can do o a successful roll is take possession of a prisoner. Ciuld my squire just grab that guy off the ground right now? Or do we first need to fight an extended round to actually grab a guy? Since extended rounds happen after the squire roll, does that mean we'd have to wait until next round to hand the prisoner off to the squire?

Also, I believe that my squire can only aid me. So if Sir Meliaunce were to jump down and grab a prisoner, he'd be stuck with him until the end of the fight, since he has no suites of his own, correct? Is there any reason I couldn't jump down and claim Meliaunce's foe as my prisoner though?

I'm not advocating fighting an extended round now, just trying to figure out the procedure.

Ok, as I understand it the saxon that Meliaunce just put down could be claimed as a prisoner. One of the the things a squire can do o a successful roll is take possession of a prisoner. Ciuld my squire just grab that guy off the ground right now? Or do we first need to fight an extended round to actually grab a guy? Since extended rounds happen after the squire roll, does that mean we'd have to wait until next round to hand the prisoner off to the squire?

Also, I believe that my squire can only aid me. So if Sir Meliaunce were to jump down and grab a prisoner, he'd be stuck with him until the end of the fight, since he has no suites of his own, correct? Is there any reason I couldn't jump down and claim Meliaunce's foe as my prisoner though?

I'm not advocating fighting an extended round now, just trying to figure out the procedure.


>:( Just typed an answer and then managed to delete it!

Take two. To take a prisoner, and extended melee round would commence.

Someone would have to leap down and grab the body - that could be a knight or a squire, but the squire's squire roll would be at -5 due to the danger of the situation. Meanwhile, everybody, including the one grabbing the body, must face another opponent. Someone can cover the one getting the body, as getting a body and fighting back is rather difficult! They would have to split their weapon skill between their two opponents to do this. Once the body is retrieved and dumped on a horse, it needs to be taken out of the battle - this is an added encumbrance.

Combat in an extended round counts towards the WIN : LOSS score for that unit.

As you can see, it is not such an easy thing to do - although a GM could handwave it if desired for simplicity and simply ask for a squire roll and then say the squire was out for the rest of the battle - depends what time you have etc.

For you, taking a 'chanting warrior' is fairly pointless. You'll get no ransom to make the risk worthwhile. I'll point out any opponents that are worth considering, and we can work it through in more detail as needed.

Waiting on bigsteveuk to post his rolls for the round...

Waiting on bigsteveuk to post his rolls for the round...


PM sent - if I don't hear by the end of the day, I'l roll for him so as not to hold us up to long.

Love Family (16) = rolled 13 success
Spear (16 + 10)= 19+6 = 25 Critical
DMG (12d6) = 41
Horsemanship (19) = 4 success
Bob (18) = 6 success
Ysgarran (15) = 7 success
Follower Fate (15) = 14 success


As Sir Rhys looks round in panic he sees his younger Brother Aled is not among their number, his loss wounds him more than any blow. Rage fills Sir Rhys “I will water this field in your blood and even the great god Aeron will weep from your slaughter” he screams driving his spear deep into their ranks.

OCC
Sorry gents reallife and all that....

Love Family (16) = rolled 13 success
Spear (16 + 10)= 19+6 = 25 Critical
DMG (12d6) = 41
Horsemanship (19) = 4 success

I rolled a 9 for the Chanting Warriors, that's a success, but with your crit, you WIN! Your passion filled savagery makes short work of those who dare to stand before you with their puny songs.

I also note that you did an odd amount of damage - query, in a lance charge, your lance breaks if you do odd damage. Is it the same in hand to hand?


Bob (18) = 6 success
Ysgarran (15) = 7 success

Should we rule that your lance breaks, then one of these will successfully replace it.


Follower Fate (15) = 14 success
I rolled a 20... I think all your Followers make it through comfortably!



OCC
Sorry gents reallife and all that....
No problems! It will happen to all of us on the way!

Totting up the scores, I see that is THREE WINS : NO LOSSES.
This is a UNIT TRIUMPH!
You achieve your aim effortlessly, withdrawing into Zone Five, whilst disengaging from your foe. Not only will you now have a significant drop in your Unit Intensity for next round, but you have also reduced the Army Intensity by Two too!

Scores combined with the other Unit's here:
http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=887.msg7742#msg7742

We're also disengaged too, right?

I also note that you did an odd amount of damage - query, in a lance charge, your lance breaks if you do odd damage. Is it the same in hand to hand?


No only in a charge, also not that it matters a lot it should of been 10d6 not 12d6 my fault.

If you’re not charging a lance becomes a spear. Though this raises and interesting question in earlier periods lances don't really exist it's just a bloke charging on horseback with a spear. In later periods it is a proper weapon designed for one purpose and it probably should do more dmg, but also loses its flexibility.

Cheers, I'd always assumed that, but running this publicly forces you to think through the rules you've always run by!