This Round’s Army Intensity = Last Round’s Final Army Intensity + 3d6-10 Battle Events
=17 + (4+3+1-10) = 16

Unit Intensity = Army Intensity + Battle Size Modifier + Terrain Modifiers + Battle Zone + Unit Cohesion
=16 + 0 + 0 + 5 (zone 7) + 0 = 21

Can Madog roll his Battle score against this and as a unit, you can chose your Battle Maneuvers. I rolled a 13, modified to 14 (as unit intensity at 21). A straight success.

A 15, also a success.

Bob

Excellent! What tactic did you wish to employ this round folks? Are you going to try and withdraw and then charge as per the original plan last round, or as you've already got through to Zone 7, are you just going to try and push on through? Or something else?

A withdrawal at this point might not be the best option. After all, if we can move one zone forward, we are in Zone 8, behind their lines. However, looking over what options will give us moving one zone forward on the attack options gives us only one choice: push deeper. Looking at the Defensive maneuvers, I see two that would give us what we want: pull backand withdraw. The big drawback here is we move back one zone which means we get back into the thick of the battle. Currently, we are at zone 7, we get a -5 to our unit modifier. Go forward, we get a -10, while backward gives us a+10.

I vote for pushing deeper.
Comments?

Bob

I think you're right. Fortune has got us this far. Let's try for a stout heart and a strong sword arm to get us further.

p.s. We need a sword brandishing smiley.

I agree: Push deeper

We want the intensity modifier for rank as low as possible.

Sir Cynon (chris)

Push deeper.

So, we push deeper!

Bob

Push Deeper
This is an aggressive, fierce attempt to move deeper into enemy formation, even recklessly so that victory is sweet, but failure is costly. Use Push Deeper when you are strong and want to be decisive, but can’t or won’t Withdraw for a round to Charge.

Zone Change: Possible (see below)
Fight Against: Three random foes; Gamemaster chooses one.

Unit Result
Result - Effect
Triumph - Unit moves one Zone deeper into the enemy army; -2 to Intensity.
Win - Forward 1 Zone.
Loss - Unit ends turn in the same Zone where it began. Unit is Disordered next round.
Crush - Unit is Disordered next round; +2 Intensity.

For your opponents I rolled:
1, Elite Axe Men
4, Screaming Warriors
11, Archers

I fancy a change from howling, screaming, chanting warriors, and so will discount them. Of the other two, the Elite Axe Men who are impassioned with Hate Britons seem the best fit for such rear-guard action. Of course, the archers may still choose to fire upon you, let's roll to see. A 2, which means they indeed do...

So, as before, what I need from you are the following decisions and rolls:

1) Are you going to divide your combat skill between the missile fire and melee? If so, how?
2) Combat rolls - either one or two, depending on your answer to 1!
3) Damage roll - only 1 I'm afraid...
4) Horsemanship rolls - can I have 2, one in case your stead gets wounded by the arrows, and one for if you get hit by the great spears
5) Followers rolls - using an average 15 skill. I guess they ought to pit themselves against the archers and the axe men, so lets have two followers rolls, one at 5 against the archers, one at 10 against the axes
6) Squire rolls - should you have any left...

I fumbled my sword and have no squires.

How do you usually handle this in a battle round? and what are my options?

I fumbled my sword and have no squires.

How do you usually handle this in a battle round? and what are my options?



Not come across this before!

I guess someone else could have ordered one of their squires to aid you (for a generous check!) seeing as you are together -however, they would then lose one of their spare swords. Any offers?

Alternatively, you could seek to jump from your horse and grab one from a fallen man, but this would run the risk of being separated from your friends, and put you at risk of being hit by a foe during this time...

I fumbled my sword and have no squires.

How do you usually handle this in a battle round? and what are my options?



Not come across this before!

I guess someone else could have ordered one of their squires to aid you (for a generous check!) seeing as you are together -however, they would then lose one of their spare swords. Any offers?

Alternatively, you could seek to jump from your horse and grab one from a fallen man, but this would run the risk of being separated from your friends, and put you at risk of being hit by a foe during this time...


As stated I think in a post on round 2 - KAP 5.0 p119 - can be recovered.

Chris

<<<1) Are you going to divide your combat skill between the missile fire and melee? If so, how?
2) Combat rolls - either one or two, depending on your answer to 1!
3) Damage roll - only 1 I'm afraid...
4) Horsemanship rolls - can I have 2, one in case your stead gets wounded by the arrows, and one for if you get hit by the great spears
5) Followers rolls - using an average 15 skill. I guess they ought to pit themselves against the archers and the axe men, so lets have two followers rolls, one at 5 against the archers, one at 10 against the axes
6) Squire rolls - should you have any left...>>>

KAP 5.0 p122 about three quarters of the way down on the left hand side. Fighting with a lance whilst not charging. Given I'm Cymric then spear/Lance skill are the same ?

So:
1) Split skill - 5 to Archers, 15 to great spears
2) Rolls: 3 vs Archers(success so get shield at least), 18 vs Great spears (fail)
3) Damage - n/a since I missed
4) Horsemanship (skill = 16) first roll = 6, second roll = 2
5) Followers rolls: vs Archers (effective skill 5) = 10 (fail), and vs greatspears (effective skill = 10) = 1 (success)
6) Squire rolls: Knight in Trainig (18) =4 (success), new squire (15) = 8 (success)

Chris

As stated I think in a post on round 2 - KAP 5.0 p119 - can be recovered.
Chris


Cheers Chris!

KAP 5.0 p122 about three quarters of the way down on the left hand side. Fighting with a lance whilst not charging. Given I'm Cymric then spear/Lance skill are the same ?

Yep


So:
1) Split skill - 5 to Archers, 15 to great spears
2) Rolls: 3 vs Archers(success so get shield at least), 18 vs Great spears (fail)
3) Damage - n/a since I missed
4) Horsemanship (skill = 16) first roll = 6, second roll = 2

The archers roll an 8, that's a success, but as you say, you get the shield. For damage I roll 5,5,4=14.
It is even damage and so it is you, not your horse that is struck - so no damage there then!

For the axe men I rolled a 7 (you seem to have tried to avoid this fate by calling them great spears!)
Checking out the description for Great Axe in KAP 5.1 I read the following:


This skill dictates a character’s use of the great axe; a two-handed and double-headed version of the battle axe, this weapon cannot be used with a shield. However, due to its great mass, it does an extra 1d6 points of damage against all foes, and defenders using a shield against a Great Axe get 1d6 protection from it, not the usual 6 points. A fumble indicates the weapon broke.

That sounds pretty lethal to me :o
For damage I roll: 6,4,4,4,4,2,1=25
For starters, I'm afraid that is an automatic knockdown. Things could get brutal in this round...
You armour takes 14 + 1d6. I rolled a 5 and so 20 points are absorbed, and so you take 5 points of damage from the axe and a further 1d6=2 from the fall.


5) Followers rolls: vs Archers (effective skill 5) = 10 (fail), and vs greatspears (effective skill = 10) = 1 (success)

I'm afraid the archers succeeded with a roll of 4, and the axe men with a roll of 15, and so that's another follower lost. It seems that Sir Frioc (your Distant Cousin) has fallen...


6) Squire rolls: Knight in Trainig (18) =4 (success), new squire (15) = 8 (success)

This is just as well! According to the notes a successful squire roll can give the following results:


• Get off his horse and give it to his knight, who can also mount up immediately.
• Give his horse to his lord, and climb up behind him. The rider is now Encumbered.

Do you wish to take up one of these options, and if so which? If your squires had failed, we may have ended this round with you left behind and operating as a unit on your own - dangerous - or needing an extended melee round from your companions to save you - also dangerous!

I will (try to) battle inspire myself against these dogs as I witnessed Sir Chesterlaine being cut down last round. I roll 10, so I do. I will apply it to my sword skill, making it a (17 + 10) 27. I will split it 2/25 against the archer and archer/axeman as I see they have great axes (ouch!).

Needless to say, I fail against the archers: 16, and roll 13 against the Axeman. That modifies to 18;
Damage: 17
Horsemanship: 8, 7
Followers: 12
Squire: 4

Bob

I will (try to) battle inspire myself against these dogs as I witnessed Sir Chesterlaine being cut down last round. I roll 10, so I do. I will apply it to my sword skill, making it a (17 + 10) 27. I will split it 2/25 against the archer and archer/axeman as I see they have great axes (ouch!).

I'd say that was a wise move


Needless to say, I fail against the archers: 16, and roll 13 against the Axeman. That modifies to 18;
Damage: 17
Horsemanship: 8, 7

The archers succeed doing 6,5,5=16 damage. That strikes the knight and counts as ONE LOSS.
No knockdown roll required, just. 4 points of damage done (can you track that for me?)

The axe men succeed with a 3, lower than you though, so you get to inflict the pain. It's not a major wound, but they're not really worth ransoming anyway... That's 1 WIN


Followers: 12
Squire: 4


Your followers need two rolls - against the arrows and against the axes - I've suggested for simplicity that we use a 5 and 10 split for them. I'll take your 12 for the first which is a failure, however for the archers I rolled 19 so they survive that volley of arrows. For the second attack I roll for the followers a 2, and for the axe men a 1 (honestly! :-[ ) Somehow they survive that too!

Your squire makes it through too.

So that's 1 WIN, 3 LOSSES so far

Sir Pelaran

One attack again Sir Pelaran is ignoring the peasant archers.

Sword skill (18): Rolled 18
_________________________________
Damage (4d6): Rolled 15
_________________________________
Horsemanship (20) roll #1: Rolled 9
Horsemanship (20) roll #2: Rolled 20
_________________________________
Followers split: Archer (5): Rolled 6
Followers split: Elite Axe Men (10): Rolled 4
_________________________________
Knight in training (18): Rolled 10

Hey Pelaran, wasn't that 18 a critical? And you rolled for a TOTAL 15?

Bob

Sir Memnon

I think my sword is back, so I'm splitting attacks. :)

vs Archers: Sword skill (2): Rolled 18 (1d20=18, 1d20=6) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2640079/)
vs Axemen: Sword skill (18): Rolled 6
_________________________________
Damage (5d6): Rolled 10 (5d6=10) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2640083/)
_________________________________
Horsemanship (17) roll #1: Rolled 7 (1d20=7, 1d20=11) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2640085/)
Horsemanship (17) roll #2: Rolled 11
_________________________________
Followers split: Archer (5): Rolled 12 (1d20=12, 1d20=15) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2640086/)
Followers split: Elite Axe Men (10): Rolled 15
_________________________________
No Squires

6) Squire rolls: Knight in Trainig (18) =4 (success), new squire (15) = 8 (success)

This is just as well! According to the notes a successful squire roll can give the following results:


• Get off his horse and give it to his knight, who can also mount up immediately.
• Give his horse to his lord, and climb up behind him. The rider is now Encumbered.

Do you wish to take up one of these options, and if so which? If your squires had failed, we may have ended this round with you left behind and operating as a unit on your own - dangerous - or needing an extended melee round from your companions to save you - also dangerous!

It's not explained on page 50 of Book of Battle what option 2 means in practice. Run could mean that he just runs away from the front line. Alternatively it could mean the following round that he has to fight a round of battle as if he had used the run tactic. The second option seems to be messy book-keeping to me (and Squire retreat looks as if it would be easier, despite the burden). Plese also see the final question I have about no penalties for abandoning Squires on foot (and technically he would be better of running towards the enemy camp as intensity will go down - or alternatively run sideways away from the battle).

Gm ruling on this one please before I decide ?

Secondly, not mentioned but implied is that:
a) my squire could get off his horse and give it to me
b) he could then mount up with the second squire, who counts as encumbered and therefore presumable minus 5 on his squire roll ?

Clarification please ?

Also, in the rules as (not) written abandoning a squire by claiming the horse he is riding and leavinghim on foot seems to incur no honour penalty or any other sort of penalty ?

Chris

Hey Pelaran, wasn't that 18 a critical? And you rolled for a TOTAL 15?

Bob


You're right, I didn't double my dice. Completely forgot. I'll keep the 15 and roll another 4.

I got 17, so + 15 we have Damage: 32

Sir Pelaran

One attack again Sir Pelaran is ignoring the peasant archers.

Sword skill (18): Rolled 18
_________________________________
Damage 32 (revised quote to include crit.)
_________________________________
Horsemanship (20) roll #1: Rolled 9
Horsemanship (20) roll #2: Rolled 20


For the archers I rolled a 6 - that's a hit. For damage a 6,4,3=13. I fear that strikes the horse and also counts as a LOSS. Checking back to the last round, I see your horse was hit before and is down to 36 hit points from an initial 48. Taking off the 5 points of armour, that's a loss of another 8 for the horse, bringing it down to 28. To keep the horse going you need to achieve a horsemanship roll at -1 for each point of damage taken, which I believe is cumulative, and so it now at -20 and so your roll of 9 is a failure. Whilst your horse doesn't throw you (you didn't fumble), and you can attack if attacked, realistically this horse is now useless in combat and needs changing...

For the Axe Men I rolled 11, a partial success - irrelevant really as they have no shields. What matters is that for you this is a WIN. Just as well with the horse predicament. The damage is easily enough to take them out.


Followers split: Archer (5): Rolled 6
Followers split: Elite Axe Men (10): Rolled 4
The archers rolled 9 - they hit, and the Axe Men rolled 6, and so they too hit. I fear that's another follower down - number 5 this time.


Knight in training (18): Rolled 10
He makes it though 8)

What to do about your horse? See the discussion I'm having with Chris in this thread - your successful squire roll would give you the option of claiming your squires horse and either abandoning him or letting him ride with you.

Total so far: 2 WINS : 4 LOSSES

Sir Memnon

I think my sword is back, so I'm splitting attacks. :) Indeed!


vs Archers: Sword skill (2): Rolled 18 (1d20=18, 1d20=6) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2640079/)
vs Axemen: Sword skill (18): Rolled 6
_________________________________
Damage (5d6): Rolled 10 (5d6=10) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2640083/)
_________________________________
Horsemanship (17) roll #1: Rolled 7 (1d20=7, 1d20=11) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2640085/)
Horsemanship (17) roll #2: Rolled 11

For the archers I rolled 17 - a miss. That counts as a WIN for you then, and a sigh of relief from your horse!

For the Axe Men I rolled 17 as well. This is a hit, and at a higher number than yours. For damage I rolled: 4,4,4,4,4,4,3=27. I fear that's twice your knockdown score and so you are thrown from your horse too.
Your armour takes 12+1d6 (for shield as great axes). I roll a 6 for the shield, and so 9 points of damage penetrate your armour and a additional 1 (rolled for the 1d6) for the fall. Can you note those on your character as you've been doing for your followers etc.

That's a LOSS


Followers split: Archer (5): Rolled 12 (1d20=12, 1d20=15) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2640086/)
Followers split: Elite Axe Men (10): Rolled 15

For the archers I rolled 14 and the Axe men 1. The archers hit and so that's another follower down - Sir Wyhilm (Household Knight) (rolled 5)

You too need to consider what to do about your stead...

Total: 3 WINS : 4 LOSSES

What are we going to do about horses?

Ok, it seems this unit is in a bit of a mess with horses, or more realistically, the lack of them!

Options if you are dismounted and with a squire are if he succeeds his squire roll:

Take his horse from him and leave him on foot - it is not explained what happens to the squire, I would rule that he is left to escape the battle and can be reunited with his master after its all over. I would also rule that there is no honour lost for this, this is a squire's role in battle, and the enemy aren't going to be loking to kill him, he is no threat or interest to them.
Take the squire's horse and have him mount up behind you - an act of generousity (check!) but also danger as you are then encumbered and at -5 to weapon skill
I guess if you have 2 squires left, as Chris suggests one could surrender his horse and then mount up behind the second. This would require both to succeed in their squire rolls and I think would in all likeliness count them as both being out of action for the rest of the battle - or maybe until you can get back to your camp where they would ultimately be heading to


Of course, if you fail your squire rolls, then you can be rescued by the rest of your unit in an extended melee round - but in the current situation, that would seem pretty pointless as only one of you is mounted and he can hardly carry the rest of you!

So what to do?
You could as a unit move to being all on foot and just give up on your steads and the chances of charging in the future.
You could take your squire's horses - for simplicity I'd let you share squires if needed to get you all mounted.
Or you could see if there's another creative response you can come up with!

Of course, whatever you do, its going to get messy now - just checked what happens in a UNIT LOSS (which of course this currently is, unless you opt to enter an extended melee of some kind) and its:


Loss - Unit ends turn in the same Zone where it began. Unit is Disordered next round.

This has the following consequences:


Disordered: The unit is confused, out of formation, milling about, in each other’s way, recovering from a bad fight, and otherwise not ready for melee. Two effects occur. First, unit cohesion is diminished (Step 2), which gives a +5 to the Unit Intensity. Second, the Unit Combat Modifier (Step 4) gives a -10 modifier to all unit combat skills.

This is the time when even non-believing knights would begin to pray...
...and their players begin to think about which passions to call upon!

Total: 3 WINS : 4 LOSSES



I am definitely interested in everyone's thoughts, but I think the results will end up in us losing this round. Now, with Memnon thrown, Pelaran's horse useless, Avalon Lad also being thrown, I think we need to decide whether or not to extend this round to collect everyone.

No matter what happens this round, next round will also be troublesome as the intensity will go up by +5 and we will be at -10 combat skills as we will be disordered, unless we can turn our fortunes around via the extended round.

Merlin, at the present time, I see us as a LOSS. We have two knights horseless, one who has a useless horse, and one ok. Could we have your perspective as well. Your last post confirmed this. But, can we turn this around by extending?

Bob

Merlin, at the present time, I see us as a LOSS. We have two knights horseless, one who has a useless horse, and one ok. Could we have your perspective as well. Your last post confirmed this. But, can we turn this around by extending?

Bob


What would I do? Personally I would use up your squires, get back on horses and cut your losses and end the round. This round has really shown the danger of missile fire in Battle -they are out of reach and although not hurting you, they are causing havoc by forcing you to either split skills or simply gain LOSSES through ignoring them.

I would also try and withdraw to get that intensity down to something more managable - although in doing so you are moving backwards.

In an extended round you could perhaps notch up a few more wins, but on the current basis, I'm not so sure you'd get more than losses - unless you can come up with an imaginative use of passions or roleplay (you're not rigidly stuck just to the battle mechanics, throw in some good roleplay and we can see where it takes us)

Thoughts anyone?

We could extend, perhaps with me doing a mad dash at the archers (who should flee from my might wrath!), we could extend, but with arrows falling, and us now on foot, we might not survive. We could try to withdraw next round, get new horses, and charge again.

Bob

Guys, am away later today and for tomorrow and so it may be Wednesday before I can post again - apologies. Take the time to plot and ponder!

I'm in favour of taking my squires horse and then losing my squire. I need to stay mounted. I would also love to charge those pesky archers as they have cost me my beautiful horse. Passion Hate Saxon might well come into it.

...and I'm back. Have we a decision?

Ben

I think we might be better off staying in the same zone as the other unit. Would we be able to merge the units in the event of a disaster?

Regarding horses: We had two horses as part of character creation. Is the second horse being lead by one of the squires and would a fallen knight with a squire have access to it?

I think we might be better off staying in the same zone as the other unit. Would we be able to merge the units in the event of a disaster?
Bob has rightly pointed out that if you're in the same Zone you can opt to use the fight with another or stand with another maneuvers which might do just what you're looking for. I've asked them if they might consider this, following up Bob's suggestion.


Regarding horses: We had two horses as part of character creation. Is the second horse being lead by one of the squires and would a fallen knight with a squire have access to it?

:-[ Didn't really think through the number of squires and the number of horses. Let's say that your best horse is the one that you're riding. The other horse is the type that your two squires ride (yes, that means you have three not two!) The sheet was one I quickly modified from some I had from Greg to use at Continuum.

I am not sure if we are going to get help. In the great metagaming idea, the other group thinks we can reach more options if we stay apart. Ok, since that means we will be off on our own, I am open to suggestions. I can try to inspire myself for the battle roll, or simply hope for the best.

Merlin, is battle a combat skill? Meaning am I "-10" to it as well? If so, I might as well save the inspiration for my sword skill. I will need it.

Bob

I think we might be better off staying in the same zone as the other unit. Would we be able to merge the units in the event of a disaster?
Bob has rightly pointed out that if you're in the same Zone you can opt to use the fight with another or stand with another maneuvers which might do just what you're looking for. I've asked them if they might consider this, following up Bob's suggestion.


Regarding horses: We had two horses as part of character creation. Is the second horse being lead by one of the squires and would a fallen knight with a squire have access to it?

:-[ Didn't really think through the number of squires and the number of horses. Let's say that your best horse is the one that you're riding. The other horse is the type that your two squires ride (yes, that means you have three not two!) The sheet was one I quickly modified from some I had from Greg to use at Continuum.


Apologies for tardiness - I'm trying to move stuff from old machine (PC) to new machine (Mac) and having a few hiccups on the way...

I thought Stand with another or fight with another were abstract concepts and didn't actually need the presence of another unit run by a player character? As such they remain open to us for next round ? (Merlin can you clarify ?)

In terms of my options then:
a) I will send my youngest squire back to the rear after taking his horse.
b) I will be on my best horse
c) my oldest squire is then on my second horse

Unless - and I need to read all the posts slowly here when I'm not stressed by the Mac way of doing things - things are such that my second horse is needed for someone who has no horse and no squires left to take their horse from.

Chris

I thought Stand with another or fight with another were abstract concepts and didn't actually need the presence of another unit run by a player character? As such they remain open to us for next round?


That's my understanding - you need to get a successful unit commander roll to have the option however.

As commander of the other unit I am reasonably hopeful of getting a full success (just rolled a 16, so the UI roll will need to be pretty good to beat me) and if you guys get one too then I'll 'Stand w/Another' if Merlin is happy to narrate that as our two groups finding each other in the melee.

Regards
Luke

Started up a new thread for Round Four: http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=918.0 (http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=918.0)