Page 42 of the BoTM says "if he (the knight) is married then it (the steward) is his wife" but does she have to be? Some of my unmarried knights have peasant or family member stewards who, through a 1 point increase per yer, have now got fairly good (12+). Do they have to replace them with the wife if they get married (base skill 5)? That seems a bit rough, and rather daft.

HAVE TO?
No, but, consequences...



Page 42 of the BoTM says "if he (the knight) is married then it (the steward) is his wife" but does she have to be? Some of my unmarried knights have peasant or family member stewards who, through a 1 point increase per yer, have now got fairly good (12+). Do they have to replace them with the wife if they get married (base skill 5)?

By tradition, yes, of course!
Indeed! A mere commoner doing the job of a noble woman?
Make him your bailiff or something suitable!



That seems a bit rough, and rather daft.


Rough? On whom? A commoner? Oh, really now!
daft?
Let us put it this way: common sense is not appropriate here.
class is
OK, another way
Yes, go ahead and leave the steward there
remember, though: consequences, consequences, consequences...

What will that idle wife be doing then, when she has no proper task to do?
You trust a commoner? Oh my!
And what will her family think, now that she has been properly married off and grossly insulted by her new husband?

This question came up in my game as well. And a related issue - when a knight has multiple manors, does he need a steward or wife for each of them, or can his wife manage all of the estates?

Tychus - That is actually mentioned in the BoTM. One steward can control 4 manors if they are within a days ride of each other.

Greg - When I say it's a bit rough, I mean rough on the players. Forcing them to ditch their 12+ steward because they now have a wife has peed some of them off. My group have argued why this needs to be (the wife can doing sowing, cooking cleaning, baby making and tons of other stuff), and leave the professional to get on with running the manor.

If the Queen gets on a plane, the pilot is not expected to let her fly it just cos she's the queen! :D

Comment from one of my players

"Well OK, but high ranking knights and higher nobility?
Is Lady Ellen the steward for the earl or example?
Is Guinevere the steward for Arthur? (when they come on the scene)

And it's not necessarily a "mere commoner", say it was you trusted brother who was steward? Or even doing it yourself if you had a good skill? If you were the greatest steward, would you trust your new incompetant wife to do the job?"

Greg - When I say it's a bit rough, I mean rough on the players.


Yes, I understood.



Forcing them to ditch their 12+ steward because they now have a wife has peed some of them off. My group have argued why this needs to be (the wife can doing sowing, cooking cleaning, baby making and tons of other stuff), and leave the professional to get on with running the manor.


Noble women do not cook and clean. What an insult to her and her family!!



If the Queen gets on a plane, the pilot is not expected to let her fly it just cos she's the queen! :D


No, but he is expected to do what noble women do--steward the manor.

I'll say it again--consequences.
I am not telling the players what to do
I am telling you only what is expected of normal people
players can do whatever they want
NPCs almost always do what the majority do
If this woman is an NPC, she is the gamemaster's hands, and would probably act normally--be insulted and seek some kind of revenge. Remember, she probably has no emotional attachment to the her husband that might "make her do" something for him out of the ordinary. This is a business deal, and if she is prevented from doing her business... well?

Comment from one of my players

"Well OK, but high ranking knights and higher nobility?
Is Lady Ellen the steward for the earl or example?


Yes.
What do you suppose she does otherwise?
It is of course more like the KAP "seneschal," or "High Steward" than looking after the hayward and bailiff.



Is Guinevere the steward for Arthur? (when they come on the scene)


Yes. But she is steward over a vast household which numbers in the thousands. Her staff is like a county, and so her day to day responsibilities are different in specifics, but not in kind.
Out of curiosity, what do people think he does? Just sit arourd and look pretty?



And it's not necessarily a "mere commoner", say it was you trusted brother who was steward?


Is this man without ambition? Why is he not trying to better himself and become a knight? Then he can get his own manor to work on.



Or even doing it yourself if you had a good skill? If you were the greatest steward, would you trust your new incompetant wife to do the job?"


I would make quite sure that she ha something solid and significant to do, and as a manorial lord, there is not much else.

Hmm, if the wife is anything like the women I know, I don't think she'll be offended.
It'll be more like: "Oh I don't have to work. Great, I'll go shopping!"

New dress and jewels. Maybe invite all her friends for a great feast.
Your players will be broke in a week. ;)

I stumbled across this under the description of Retinues (http://www.gspendragon.com/retinue.html) on the main page:


Chief Steward

A single steward can be Chief Steward over several manors. Each manor needs it own Steward, but the Chief Steward can lead them, similar to how a unit leader leads in battle.

At the start of the “Stewardship Phase” of the BoM “Complete Landholding System,” (before Step D.1., page 43), a Chief Steward may attempt her Stewardship skill against the average of the Misfortune levels of the manors under her care. Use the Results Table on page 44, but interpreted to provide the modifiers below.

A Steward who would get the Gentlewoman's Bonus does get it for the results of the Chief Steward roll.

The result is a modifier given to the Stewardship skill for the all under stewards before they make their own attempt a at Step D. 1.

Chief Stewards cost the same as ordinary stewards to maintain.

Harvest Results Modifier
Incredible: +10
Excellent: +5
Good: +2
Regular: 0
Meager: -2
Bad: -5
Very bad: -10
Negligible: -15

So how does this fit with the rest of this thread? Presumably a wife should be the chief steward, with npc stewards serving under her managing each manor?

I stumbled across this under the description of Retinues (http://www.gspendragon.com/retinue.html) on the main page:

Chief Steward

So how does this fit with the rest of this thread? Presumably a wife should be the chief steward, with npc stewards serving under her managing each manor?


Yes, that is correct.
Note--the original question was for a knight with an experienced steward, and a wife, and 1 manor

I would think this is one of those areas where modern thinking divulges from historical accuracy. One of the things I did when I had was playing my banneret knight was to have my daughters all work on their stewardship rolls. I put them in charge of any manor that did not already have a wife attending to it. Once the players realized the additional boon, I had plenty of proposals and the GM had fun providing competitors to their hands.

Remember, in this time frame, marriage was arranged. Each side brought something to the table. If it was just having babies, then I, as a father of the daughter must ask, then why should I spend my money on a dowry if she gets nothing? does nothing? what does my family get from such a union?

Bob

About Consequences....

If you are erranting, or on mission for your lord, and your wife has nothing to do, apart from spending the money that your excellent steward makes, who do you think her roving eye might fall on? And who will be her daily companion? After all, he will be making the money that she can spend.....
Would you trust the parentage of your children after this?

Having just read the link that Tychus posted I'd like to expand the question - Does the Chief Steward have to be your wife? Would social nicety and honourable expectation be satisfied if she was steward of your manor, or only if she ran the whole show?

Having just read the link that Tychus posted I'd like to expand the question - Does the Chief Steward have to be your wife? Would social nicety and honourable expectation be satisfied if she was steward of your manor, or only if she ran the whole show?


Your wife is the #2 person on the manor, in your life for ALL income and possessions.

Will she be satisfied with any position that is less important?

Greg et al.,

Curious if this analogy would serve:

When Arthur first becomes King, he has a battle skill of 7 at the Battle of Carlion. Meanwhile, King Lot has a skill of 25. Did anyone tell Arthur he couldn't lead the army because he was so new and his skill was so bad? No matter what Arthur's skill was, he was expected to lead. You see a steady increase in that skill over the next few years. So I would assume, the same could be expected of a new wife. The newly wed knight should have a few extra libra set aside (dowry??) for the inevitable loss of income for the first couple of years and expect the new wife to gain confidence and ability as she settles in.

Bob

I rule that wives improve their skill the same way that NPC experts do. So +1 to skill until 15 and then +1 if they roll 6 on a d6 thereafter. For widows remarrying this would imply that they start with higher than the base Stewardship skill depending upon how long they were managing things for their previous husband(s), but I haven't had to deal with that wrinkle yet.

Regards
Luke

I rule that wives improve their skill the same way that NPC experts do. So +1 to skill until 15 and then +1 if they roll 6 on a d6 thereafter. For widows remarrying this would imply that they start with higher than the base Stewardship skill depending upon how long they were managing things for their previous husband(s), but I haven't had to deal with that wrinkle yet.

Regards
Luke


ditto