I was browsing through the new 5.1 version of the rules, re-reading the Fashion skill - amongst other things - and I noticed it's changed quite a bit from before. The old version had the skill being non knightly for starters (which it now isn't) and used to multiply the APP bonus depending on your roll. Now it gives either a +1 or +2 bonus to APP per £ and the text suggests it can be used by female AND male characters.

I was just wondering if this hints at a revised section on Fashion, Jewelery and APP in general? APP is very important in my game and thus my players take great interest in clothing & jewelery to boost it. As the rules stand, I think Jewelry is overly "powerful" compared to clothes as it never dates or loses its APP bonus and cannot be easily damaged or destroyed. I've toyed with some house rules to balance this somewhat but, having read the new Fashion skill, I just wonder if the system is being reworked anyway.

I was browsing through the new 5.1 version of the rules, re-reading the Fashion skill - amongst other things - and I noticed it's changed quite a bit from before. The old version had the skill being non knightly for starters (which it now isn't) and used to multiply the APP bonus depending on your roll. Now it gives either a +1 or +2 bonus to APP per £ and the text suggests it can be used by female AND male characters.

I was just wondering if this hints at a revised section on Fashion, Jewelery and APP in general?


Well, you have read the revision.



APP is very important in my game


Have I posted my notes on APP somewhere?
In this forum, perhaps?
I would love to see all applications that people put APP to. It is quite unlike the other stats, and far too neglected in the rules.



and thus my players take great interest in clothing & jewelery to boost it. As the rules stand, I think Jewelry is overly "powerful" compared to clothes as it never dates or loses its APP bonus and cannot be easily damaged or destroyed. I've toyed with some house rules to balance this somewhat but, having read the new Fashion skill, I just wonder if the system is being reworked anyway.


What you have seen is what has been done to the system.
The rest is unchanged--i.e. jewelry is unchanged.
Opinions, suggestions and input are always welcome.

Apologies for resurrecting this thread so many months later but APP is incredibly important in my campaign and the questions raised initially slipped by me.

Greg - Yes I have now read your notes regarding APP (http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=863.15) and I think they're a nice addition, as well as Rugged Indoorsman's suggestion of a glory boost for 16+ APP as is done with Passions.

The issue for me IS players with too high an APP, as there are so many factors which boost APP or APP related skills. Briefly my courtly sessions work like this - along with the ramifications of APP: Each court or feast lasts a certain number of rounds (set be me based on the size of the celebration) and during each a PK can choose to do one action of his choosing, such as "go talk to Lady so and so" or "sit and eat my leg of beef". In addition they get one random event - for which I've created for the players to turn over - that either interferes with their action or provides them with an alternative. *Some* of these can be ignored and some can't. PKs can gain from taking part in random events because success with grants a temporary APP bonus; the more involved they become the more they can boost APP. Their boosted score is then used to get them a foothold with any ladies they are seeking to woo. I assume any "elite woman" - ie those named in the GPC - are always going to have numerous knights trying to engage them and the PK needs to succeed in an APP vs APP contest. If he does he has her attention and may follow this up with another skill (dance, flirt whatever) with success giving a boost to his standing with her, and the higher his standing the more likely he is to win her hand. Each round he has to continue to win her attention in order to try and impress her again. I've refined this over several sessions and I'm now at a system which works fairly well and my players enjoy; it's certainly got people more *involved*.

However, the sheer number of APP bonuses can become troublesome making the gap between high and low extremes too great. At present, jewels add to APP, clothes add to APP, events add to APP, high Honour should add to APP, and - in my game - the ladies' level of interest in you also effectively adds to APP. And with APP bonuses being given on a +1 per libra ratio, a knight with a bit of money to spare could easily give himself a whacking great bonus (+10 or more). None of these can be easily discounted as they all have an equally strong reason for being valid APP boosters.

- I think jewels are too powerful. They have all the benefits of clothing and none of the downside; they give the same bonus and do not suffer from deterioration or destruction.

On to Fashion the skill. Rather than giving a bonus to APP I think Fashion should be used to measure how well you utilise the items you already have. You make a Fashion roll to get the full bonus from clothes and jewels otherwise you only get half their normal amount. Any fool can dress himself in designer clothes but you need an eye for what works to make good clothes *work*. If Fashion is indeed now a knightly skill then all well and good. If not, then it increases the value of having a good valet as part of your retinue.

In a similar vein Courtesy could be used to effectively energise the less tangible aspects of attraction; honour, personal affection etc. Act rudely and your high Honour comes across as arrogance.

These are my thoughts so far, albeit with limited playtesting. One solid bonus has been the elevation of APP to a far more important stat.

I think jewels are too powerful. They have all the benefits of clothing and none of the downside; they give the same bonus and do not suffer from deterioration or destruction.

I agree. My house rule is that no matter what, a PC can never increase his APP by more than 50% (So APP 10+5 or APP11+6 or APP 19+9 for example) AND clothing "caps" the value you can ad from jewelry. The bonus from jewelry can never exceed the bonus from clothing. So a knight with £1 clothes and the crown of the emperor of Rome (£100 or whatever) would increase his APP +2.

Skarpskytten - Can I ask if you're allowing a APP boost based on high Honour or confine it solely to clothes and jewels? In my discussions with Dr JM on this subject, he argued that a 10,000 glory knight should have more sway than a novice one with a fancy ring on his finger; a point I found hard to disagree with.

Skarpskytten - Can I ask if you're allowing a APP boost based on high Honour or confine it solely to clothes and jewels? In my discussions with Dr JM on this subject, he argued that a 10,000 glory knight should have more sway than a novice one with a fancy ring on his finger; a point I found hard to disagree with.

This did kind of crop up in my group when we discussed this: My players argued that high Glory would modify APP. And you could go that way; I think it's perfectly reasonable and the arguments for it are solid. But I think that high Glory PCs have so many other perks in game already. And I want to make APP worthwhile investing points in. So I made another argument: APP is charisma, magnetism, sex appeal. High Glory do not necessarily increase this. You could be world famous, but a horrible bore. Gawaine (in my world) mostly talks about himself, which tends to make rather bland conversation. Any beautiful newbie knight might be much more interesting if he has charm and grace than those famous knights. And stats should be about raw talent, rather than training (Courtesy; Orate) or fame (Glory). So we don't apply any honor for APP-rolls.

Skarpskytten - Can I ask if you're allowing a APP boost based on high Honour or confine it solely to clothes and jewels? In my discussions with Dr JM on this subject, he argued that a 10,000 glory knight should have more sway than a novice one with a fancy ring on his finger; a point I found hard to disagree with.

This did kind of crop up in my group when we discussed this: My players argued that high Glory would modify APP. And you could go that way; I think it's perfectly reasonable and the arguments for it are solid. But I think that high Glory PCs have so many other perks in game already. And I want to make APP worthwhile investing points in. So I made another argument: APP is charisma, magnetism, sex appeal. High Glory do not necessarily increase this. You could be world famous, but a horrible bore. Gawaine (in my world) mostly talks about himself, which tends to make rather bland conversation. Any beautiful newbie knight might be much more interesting if he has charm and grace than those famous knights. And stats should be about raw talent, rather than training (Courtesy; Orate) or fame (Glory). So we don't apply any honor for APP-rolls.


I tend to disagree.
First however I fully agree that having a pretty ring does not make you a more interesting conversation partner. So I strongly dislike APP modifiers from jewelry/clothing (except perhaps as negative modifiers if you show up in your bloodied torn clothes at high court). Hence I tend to more play it that if you dont wear clothes appropriate your station you suffer penalties.
Second though, high Glory makes you a much more interesting conversation partner... (of course already having a high APP/charisma from birth does help). You are more likely to converse with a famous person than with a non-famous person (even if they have more natural charisma). Though I can agree that quickly you can discover this famous person is boring (= low APP), so a max modifier is appropriate. Max doubling one's APP from Glory sounds ok.

fg,
Thijs

I don't consider APP to have anything to do with charisma or social skills.
It is purely appearance, so fashion and jewellery do make a difference in a culture which values those things.
For socialising, I use courtesy, flirting, the various entertainment skills, and often most important, the personality traits.
For making a first impression, and attracting attention, nothing beats an impressive APP (with the various mods) though. It's a very important part of the social manoeuvring that goes on at court events where both sexes are involved.

I don't consider APP to have anything to do with charisma or social skills.
It is purely appearance, so fashion and jewellery do make a difference in a culture which values those things.
For socialising, I use courtesy, flirting, the various entertainment skills, and often most important, the personality traits.
For making a first impression, and attracting attention, nothing beats an impressive APP (with the various mods) though. It's a very important part of the social manoeuvring that goes on at court events where both sexes are involved.


Using the same criteria wouldn't Honour also qualify as a modifier to APP? This is an issue I struggle with as the bonuses can easily ratchet up to very high levels. Adding a cap may seem like the obvious answer but it can have subtle effects elsewhere, eg, once a player has a decent enough Honour bonus - or jewelley bonus or whatever - they quickly reach their cap level and no longer see the worth in investing in clothes etc,.

I don't consider APP to have anything to do with charisma or social skills.
It is purely appearance, so fashion and jewellery do make a difference in a culture which values those things.
For socialising, I use courtesy, flirting, the various entertainment skills, and often most important, the personality traits.
For making a first impression, and attracting attention, nothing beats an impressive APP (with the various mods) though. It's a very important part of the social manoeuvring that goes on at court events where both sexes are involved.


Using the same criteria wouldn't Honour also qualify as a modifier to APP? This is an issue I struggle with as the bonuses can easily ratchet up to very high levels. Adding a cap may seem like the obvious answer but it can have subtle effects elsewhere, eg, once a player has a decent enough Honour bonus - or jewelley bonus or whatever - they quickly reach their cap level and no longer see the worth in investing in clothes etc,.


You mean Glory instead of Honour, right?
Concerning no point after reaching cap, that's why it's maybe idea to start imposing penalties for inappropiate clothing. Or better, how about you only gain the +1 from 1000 Glory if you also wear at least +1L clothing (afterall noone believes that famous Lancelot would walk in poor man clothes)?
" I am famous, I should get bonus!", "Yes, but did you dress the part?" Oh, I like this, this forces glorious (and thus often rich) knights to invest in clothing. Also you can invest as much as you want in clothing, if you dont have the glory to go along, you'll still be ignored...

fg,
Thijs

You mean Glory instead of Honour, right?
doh... yes you're right Glory is what I meant not Honour.



Concerning no point after reaching cap, that's why it's maybe idea to start imposing penalties for inappropiate clothing. Or better, how about you only gain the +1 from 1000 Glory if you also wear at least +1L clothing (afterall noone believes that famous Lancelot would walk in poor man clothes)?
" I am famous, I should get bonus!", "Yes, but did you dress the part?" Oh, I like this, this forces glorious (and thus often rich) knights to invest in clothing. Also you can invest as much as you want in clothing, if you dont have the glory to go along, you'll still be ignored...


Yes, your previous post did get me thinking. Perhaps each event has a level of attire that is expected and anyone below or above that gains a plus or minus. So at a relatively minor local event £1s worth of clothing is considered enough, but a regal feast might warrant £5s worth. This means my PKs still have a reason to invest in clothes but the amount they invest does not immediately translate to APP bonuses. hmmm my poor Poor knights are gonna suffer though... still APP bonuses are pretty easy to come by.

Luckily, no one from my group has really applied themselves to this dilemma. My thoughts are this: Fashion, although it might be knightly, is of secondary nature to knights. Secondly, it depends upon the phase of the game on how important it is. During Uther's reign, showing up to court in the latest fashion might be the talk of the court for an hour, but wondering how they are going to defeat their enemies next year would be the main theme. During Arthur's, it would be a whole different ballgame. I like the idea of setting the level as to what is expected based upon the time period. It would give a nice adjustment to the default setting and thus allow a gamemaster a handle on the modifiers.

Stats are important, and APP seems to be considered the lowest, although one of my knights has been spending bonus points on it (to the snickering of others). On the surface, he said he doesn't want to die of the pox. But, it looks like he is setting himself up as a court socialite. Fashion, the skill, should modify the stat, but the stat should be the norm.

Looking it from a sex appeal, if two women walked in the room, one having an APP of 6, the other 18, no matter how fashionably dressed the lower woman is, the men are going to be attracted to miss 18. But, if ms. 16 comes suddenly into the room with the newest hairdo (+1 APP), wearing lots of sparkling items (+2 APP), does a little verbal jib to ms. 18 (orate, or compose), and succeeds on her Fashion skill, then she is going to be the hottie.

I suspect that all of us use this in a little bit different form as we are telling the story from different angles.

Just my thoughts.
Bob