Do the demesne manors held by eligible ladies like Lady Adwen or Lady Gwiona require a knight's service?

I was under the impression that they were free from the obligation, but I may have misinterpreted that section. Plus, now that my knights have married some of these ladies, they have more cash than they know what to do with.

Do the demesne manors held by eligible ladies like Lady Adwen or Lady Gwiona require a knight's service?


Good question. I pondered this myself when I was looking that section over the other day. I think your impression is correct, that they are free from obligation, although this seems quite generous to me as you are finding out. (Not that the knights won't find places to spend that money, and remember, as part of the rich landowners, their ransoms are much higher, too! Prize targets for poor knights in battles!)

The way I am likely to play it in my campaign is that enfoeffed manors are already held by vassal knights who owe their allegiance to the heiress. The demesne manors still carry an obligation of knight service, but these are household knights. Thus a knight who marries a heiress with 2 demesne manors and 2 enfoeffed manors will have one household knight and two vassal knights, with his lands giving L8 for his own support, in a normal year. A knight with 4 demesne and 4 enfoeffed manors would similarly have 3 household and 4 vassal knights, with L12 for his own support, making him a superlative knight. Sounds about right for a banneret.

Of course, isn't it the Lord's prerogative to examine the grants when the heiress is getting married and adjust them?

EDIT: Here is a reply from an old thread...



There are essentially three types of manor you get:

Typical manor: most manors you get come with an obligation to supply the landlord (typically, the baron, earl, duke or king) with knights - 1 per manor. So, you get £6 from the manor (assuming average harvest), and pay £4 to support a household knight. (That knight serves you, is part of your army, but when your lord summons you, you are epxected to bring your army along.) You might also need to spend £1 to hire a steward for each of these manors, or your GM might allow you to control them all with your own steward.
Demesne Manor: These are for your own upkeep, and have no further obligation. All the income you get from them, after you pay your own support cost, is profit.
Vassal Manors: If you have many manors, you might gift or grant one to a household knight (or more likely, family member). When you do this, you no longer receive any income from that manor, but you do have a vassal knight you don't need to pay the upkeep for. (Historically, a knight would recieve something extra from the vassal, but the Pendragon economy is simplified - you can tax him, of course, every now and then.)

I was under the impression that they were free from the obligation, but I may have misinterpreted that section. Plus, now that my knights have married some of these ladies, they have more cash than they know what to do with.


Even with all of the things to buy that are listed in the BoTM? My knights are spending a fortune building things and hiring retinue!

Regarding your initial question, I thought the same as you until Morien suggested - in another thread - that additional manors require a knight's service.

The demesne manors still carry an obligation of knight service, but these are household knights. Thus a knight who marries a heiress with 2 demesne manors and 2 enfoeffed manors will have one household knight and two vassal knights, with his lands giving L8 for his own support, in a normal year. A knight with 4 demesne and 4 enfoeffed manors would similarly have 3 household and 4 vassal knights, with L12 for his own support, making him a superlative knight. Sounds about right for a banneret.


The above assumed that the knight himself would have no manor of his own. But the default character in pendragon is a landed knight, so:
1 PK manor + 2 demesne + 2 enfoeffed = L6 + 2 household + 2 vassal knights + L4 extra = Rich + L1 to spend (or ordinary + L4 to spend)
1 PK manor + 4 demesne + 4 enfoeffed = L6 + 4 household + 4 vassal knights + L8 extra = Superlative + L2 to spend (or ordinary + L8 to spend)

To me, those numbers are already more than generous, and any player complaining about them would get the Book thrown at them. (And not the Book of Manors, either, but the GPC! +1d6 damage!)

Practically the only way to gain demesne manors is through marriage, so it's not too bad to treat them the way the rules do - as pure income.

One thing I was doing is treating each single estate award as requiring at least 1 knight - so a dowry of 2 demesne manors would require 1 knight, and a dowry of 2 demesne + 1 enfeoffed manor would still require 1 knight (minimum 1 estate).

This means a single demesne manor is just the same as an enfeoffed manor, but I don't mind that.

Do the demesne manors held by eligible ladies like Lady Adwen or Lady Gwiona require a knight's service?

I was under the impression that they were free from the obligation, but I may have misinterpreted that section. Plus, now that my knights have married some of these ladies, they have more cash than they know what to do with.


I was wondering myself but the book of manors clarifies that demesne manors require no knights service. They are then purely for profit. Also I would remind that some of those Demense manors may be widows gifts, do these manors still legally belong to the Lady or does the Husband inherit them and when the Knight dies again, are they given new widows gifts? I do believe they retain the widows gift for life, so I dont think the husband inherits them but the children would. Of course she would share the profits with her husband in any case. Correct me if i am mistaken.

The manor that the PKs get correct me if I am wrong, is a Enfeoffed manor, directly to thier Lord liege in this case Count Roderick.

Also I would remind that some of those Demense manors may be widows gifts, do these manors still legally belong to the Lady or does the Husband inherit them and when the Knight dies again, are they given new widows gifts? I do believe they retain the widows gift for life, so I dont think the husband inherits them but the children would. Of course she would share the profits with her husband in any case. Correct me if i am mistaken.

Widow's Gifts are manors owned by her previous husband & family. Usually, this is their common children, but if the marriage was childless, the widow's own children from subsequent marriage have NO claim to the widow's gift manors. None whatsoever. As soon as Momsy kicks the bucket, those manors revert the to the ex-husband's family or the Liege Lord, if the line has been extinguished.

Also I would remind that some of those Demense manors may be widows gifts, do these manors still legally belong to the Lady or does the Husband inherit them and when the Knight dies again, are they given new widows gifts? I do believe they retain the widows gift for life, so I dont think the husband inherits them but the children would. Of course she would share the profits with her husband in any case. Correct me if i am mistaken.

Widow's Gifts are manors owned by her previous husband & family. Usually, this is their common children, but if the marriage was childless, the widow's own children from subsequent marriage have NO claim to the widow's gift manors. None whatsoever. As soon as Momsy kicks the bucket, those manors revert the to the ex-husband's family or the Liege Lord, if the line has been extinguished.



If the widow already has children they're the heir to any of her manors. If she's childless, marries and again her husband dies and she's childless the manors are still hers. If she marries again (which she does not have to do) the manors pass to her new husband and children if any. If she dies without children with her husband still alive they're his for life or sometimes up to three generations more, then they revert to her family or if it's dead to the Lord. even with dowers anyone who married the widow got to keep them for life.

Just to give a concrete example with the caveat that this is how we do it in our campaign. For instance, we handle dower lands differently from Snaggle in above.

Lady A has 1 dower manor and marries Knight B who has three manors. Alas, Knight B dies childless. Lady A keeps her dower manor and gets 1 more manor from Knight B as a Widow's Gift, for her lifetime.

She marries again to Knight C, who also has three manors. They get a Child D (doesn't really matter if it is a boy or a girl, it is still the heir), who would thus be entitled to Knight C's 3 manors and the dower manor, but NOT to the Widow's Gift manor from Knight B's estate.

Now things get a bit complicated. In our campaign, Lady A would lose the dower manor to her Child D, but would keep the Widow's gift manor from Knight B. Furthermore, as the inheritance is now at 4 manors (3+1 dower), her Widow's Gift from the second marriage would be 4/3 manors. So all in all, Lady A would have 2 1/3 Widow's Gift manors, but have lost her dower manor to her Child D.

Lets assume that she marries yet another time, to Knight E, who also has 3 manors. They have a Child (F) as well. However, this Child F would not inherit ANY manors from Lady A, as all of her manors are now Widow's Gifts. However, while Lady A is alive, they would be able to benefit from those 2 1/3 manors that are her Widow's Gift.

Hence, once Lady A dies, this is how the manors would be redistributed:

Knight B's estate: regains the 1 Widow's Gift manor, bringing their total to the original 3.
Child D: inherits Knight C and Lady A's dower manor for a total of 4, regaining the Widow's Gift of 4/3 manors given to Lady A when Knight C died.
Child F: inherits Knight E and that is it. No claim on Lady A's Widow's Gifts at all.

Morien I was using standard English custom and law. Which goes like this:

1. An Land a woman is heiress to goes to her eldest son (this varied from shire to shire, sometimes being the youngest son).

2. If she has no sons it passes to her daughters, divided equally.

3. If either of the above were in holy orders, her estate would pass to the next heir or revert to her family if not extinct or to her lord if it was.

4. If the woman kept any lands she received as a dower/morning gift/jointure or widow's gift (not called that).

5. Any man who married the widow kept both the land she was heir to and any dower land for life, thus a young 21 year old fortune hunter marrying a 65 year old for money, would get to keep both the estate she was heiress to and any dower(s) she had to for life. The heirs to either her estate or her dowers would have to wait for this fortune hunter to die before they got their manors.

6. Customary inheritance could be set aside by a vote of the homage of any of the lords of those estates, thus the fortune hunter could be deprived of them, if the group of vassals voted that he had no right to them.

7. Sometimes the manors were not held as either an inheritance or a dower, but were instead granted as a dowry. The dowry manors were still the property of her family and were granted only for her life and that of her husband(s), or sometimes for up to three generations. A husband even if he had no children by his wife kept any manors for his lifetime (or for three generations, if that was what had been agreed to).

The three generations had to do with children whom were members of the mother's lineage and her dowry expired when any of her descendants were no longer members of her lineage or kindred (KAP clan).

I believe, the most important thing on manors is to understand the difference between demesne and enfoeffed ones. Its the nature of right in which its Holder has it.
Enfoeffed manors are grants from someone, the holder has sworn vassalage to. These manors are still owned by the lord. The lord has only given away the right to collect the income of this land to his vassal for the support of this vassal. Sometimes this grant is for lifetime (which means, the lord gets it back after the death of the vassal) but often enough the grant is inheritable. That means, the next male holder (be it the son of the former or the next Husband of the wife) is expected to swear his own oath of vassalage to the very same lord. In my understanding (and therefore in my campaign) this is the standard for beginning PK manors.
Demesne manors are personal property of the holder. It will need its own stewardship, but that doesnt mean that it need an Knight. In fact, the holder can invest an tennant and just get extra income from it. Also a widow can do just this. An owner of such land can also accept a Knight as his vassal and grant the manor to him (although an eligable lady will have social or political difficulties to do so, at least in the early periods). That converts the demesne land to enfeoffed and the income from it goes to the new vassal. The holder in fact swaps the income for a full knights service. But remind: such things schouldn't been done without the lords permission, for it is a shift in power within his land.

So my opinion is:

Do the demesne manors held by eligible ladies like Lady Adwen or Lady Gwiona require a knight's service?No, but it require some kind of steward.


The demesne manors still carry an obligation of knight service, but these are household knights. Thus a knight who marries a heiress with 2 demesne manors and 2 enfoeffed manors will have one household knight and two vassal knightsNo, he will have 2 vassals and additional income from 2 manors. He may take housholde knight, but there ist no obligation to do so (although it would be a very good use for all that income).


Practically the only way to gain demesne manors is through marriageThat would be the most common way. But there is also a chance, to get land giftet from a lord as a reward.

Thats my interpretation of the KAP stuff for this topic. And its very playable.

Putting in my 2 cents:

Demesne vs Enfoeffed: As I understand it depends on how you look at it. For example Knight A has a manor granted to Knight B. In this case the manor is enfoeffed if you look at it from Knight A, but is the demesne of Knight B. I think that this is what Lothaire said.

Supporting a knight: I think this is depended on the wording of the grant or gift, and not so much on whther it is demesne or enfoeffed. It can be part of your demesne, but still have the obligation to support a knight. In this case you will have to support a household knight.

My understanding is in alignment with Cornelius'. If the charter requires a knight's service — the service is part of the obligation regardless of the kind of manor or if it's held by a lady or a lord.


T.

Demesne vs Enfoeffed: As I understand it depends on how you look at it. For example Knight A has a manor granted to Knight B. In this case the manor is enfoeffed if you look at it from Knight A, but is the demesne of Knight B. I think that this is what Lothaire said.Not exactly. But its a nice simplification.

In fact, a demesne manor generates its income for its owner. An enfoeffed manor instead generates the income for the holder, while the owner receives vassal service from the holder. As far as i know, this difference was very sharp in medieval times. But I consider Cornelius' simplification as very suiting in terms of gaming purpose.

And yes, if there ist already a charter, that includes knights service, that obligation stays intact if a lady becomes the owner of the manor, whether she gets ownership via inheritance or widowship. I believe it just a hard thing for a lady to arrange a new arrangement of this type. At least its harder for her that it is for males. But i no way i consider it impossible for her. I even believe it to become easier in Romance and later periods.
And aditionally, if the Lady is a player character, such things are perfektly fine to me. KAP is not easy for female players. So I'm inclined to grant them some bonus above NPC ladies.

Except that in England only the King owns land. Everyone else is enfeoffed.

NT

I think I understand thing alot clearer. I have two questions though.

Would the Dowry for Lady Adwen, which is 4 enfeoffed and 2 demesne include her widows gifts?

Im assuming they do and the two demesne manors are hers for life, but when shes dies will they become demense manors for the new husband and wifes, eldest child? or do they revert to Count Roderick upon her death and are not inheritable? The widows gift would of been 1/3 of the manors of her previous childless union with Sir Bles (her previous husband).

Im assuming they do and the two demesne manors are hers for life, but when shes dies will they become demense manors for the new husband and wifes, eldest child? or do they revert to Count Roderick upon her death and are not inheritable? The widows gift would of been 1/3 of the manors of her previous childless union with Sir Bles (her previous husband).


According to my version of the rulebook (5.0), Lady Adwen is Sir Bles' DAUGHTER, not his widow. Hence widow's gift would not apply. Instead, Lady Indeg's entry shows that the Widow's Gifts are marked separately, as they should be.

Ah thanks, I forgot Bles was the Father.