Transferred from another thread
because I really prefer one subject per thread,
Steve asks


Also, given the expanded rules for raiding given on Greg's website, and I may be reading the rules wrong here, it seems that characters can easily double or even triple their income by raiding, pillaging, and plundering during the winter phase.


First, raiding is not done over winter. It's a summer campaign-season activity. Will you give me the page references where it implies it's a winter activity, so I can fix it? Thanks.

Yes, it is relatively easy to raid and get treasure (i.e., cattle and sheep and pots & pans). That's what these guys do for their way of life.




Is this accurate? Is anything special required to raid beyond the knight and his squire?



Oh yes, much more. Basically, a few dozen of his manor personnel to drive the cattle and sheep, a couple of wagons to carry stuff, the knight's brothers and cousins who are armed and trained in weaponry (or can at least intimidate commoners). It takes some planning, because if you are not raiding the manor right next door then you are going to need to travel over someone else's land--probably over several or many manors. Risky, at best. Not casual at all.

--Greg

Transferred from another thread
because I really prefer one subject per thread,
Steve asks


Also, given the expanded rules for raiding given on Greg's website, and I may be reading the rules wrong here, it seems that characters can easily double or even triple their income by raiding, pillaging, and plundering during the winter phase.


First, raiding is not done over winter. It's a summer campaign-season activity. Will you give me the page references where it implies it's a winter activity, so I can fix it? Thanks.


On closer inspection I can't find a reference to that, and I'm not sure exactly how I got the idea. I checked the GPC, BoK, and, KAP5 and can't find a reference to it.

It appears to be a misunderstanding on my part.




Yes, it is relatively easy to raid and get treasure (i.e., cattle and sheep and pots & pans). That's what these guys do for their way of life.



Is this accurate? Is anything special required to raid beyond the knight and his squire?



Oh yes, much more. Basically, a few dozen of his manor personnel to drive the cattle and sheep, a couple of wagons to carry stuff, the knight's brothers and cousins who are armed and trained in weaponry (or can at least intimidate commoners). It takes some planning, because if you are not raiding the manor right next door then you are going to need to travel over someone else's land--probably over several or many manors. Risky, at best. Not casual at all.


That clarifies things a great deal. I was clearly wrong about the winter phase. On the other hand, I can't find much detailed information on raiding except on page 66-67 of the GPC and the additional rules on the Pendragon website. It didn't make any sense to me that a single knight and squire could go off raiding and pillaging for ?18 on their own, especially if a portion of the goods are given back to their lord. So I'm glad that's clarified.

So now I have to ask, can I get a ballpark idea on what is required to raid one's neighbors? Friends? Family? Mercenaries? How much do those things cost?

One of my players suggested that he hire 100 or so knifemen for ?2 (they're ?1 per 50 in the BotM) and go off with those. I told him I have no idea if that's appropriate. I also don't know how much service ?1 buys. A month? A campaign? Enough for a raid but not enough to pillage?

Also my players all want to go raiding Saxons and not Britons. Would raiding Saxons be any different than raiding Britons?

Also my players all want to go raiding Saxons and not Britons. Would raiding Saxons be any different than raiding Britons?



You get better stuff when you raid Britons.

;D

Suzanne

Haha, that's true.

But depending upon when you raid them, it could also be Britons stuff (i.e., the same year in which they successfully raid after they have invaded.

On the other hand, I can't find much detailed information on raiding except on page 66-67 of the GPC and the additional rules on the Pendragon website. It didn't make any sense to me that a single knight and squire could go off raiding and pillaging for ?18 on their own, especially if a portion of the goods are given back to their lord. So I'm glad that's clarified.

Please allow me to do a bit more.
The Raiding that is done in the Anarchy scenarios of GPC is not just a manor or two going off. It is a part of a long, on-going war where these things happen all the time. Large bands of men--a couple of dozen knights and couple of hundred footmen go off to pillage their neighbors.
Smaller raids, on neighbors, should net smaller rewards.


So now I have to ask, can I get a ballpark idea on


I will have to interpret some of your questions, 'cuz I don't quite understand 'em.
Please forgive my reinterpretation of your list.



what is required to raid one's neighbors?


A neighboring manor? It requires that the neighboring knight be gone, and you be there with your men. Bring the peasants, and run over next door and steal everything you can get. If anyone balks, threaten them and if they resist, kill them. Rush back home.
Net Raid income-- ?1d6.
Consequences: Your mutual lord (if you have one) will have to intervene now. No common lord? Well, it'll take a while for the lords to diplomasize and meanwhile, eat those cattle!
Oh yea, next time you leave home, expect the same treatment.



Friends?


OK, I see below you want to raid Saxons and I get it.
Yes, you can get together a batch of friends and go raiding into Saxon lands.
You can either be fast and destructive, just burn and kill and run; or get stuff; or both. If you do anything but kill and burn and run, then you will be attacked by the local defense forces which is the local chief and his heorthgeneats.
how many? How important is the guy?



Family?


If they are free of other obligations, family are among the first to jump in to help (if they are inclined that way--don't expect the baker!)



Mercenaries? How much do those things cost?


?1 hires, for 30 days:
1 mounted sergeant, or
2 sergeants, or
4 men at arms, or
4 archers or crossbowmen, or
8 knifemen

Paid in advance. And a portion of the spoils, of course.



One of my players suggested that he hire 100 or so knifemen for ?2 (they're ?1 per 50 in the BotM) and go off with those.



Wow, reserve me a few dozen will you? Can you give me the page on that? I see and use page 12, BoM.



I told him I have no idea if that's appropriate.


Uther, Anarchy and Boy King Periods? Sure. Later. Probably.
Just remember--there are always consequences, and also always unexpected consequences.



I also don't know how much service ?1 buys. A month? A campaign? Enough for a raid but not enough to pillage?


BoM, p 12: "The price shows is for 60 days." Although for the life of me I can't figure out why I'd do it for 60 instead of 30. Hence that list, above, which is much easier to understand.



Also my players all want to go raiding Saxons and not Britons. Would raiding Saxons be any different than raiding Britons?


Probably only in that the Britons would have fewer armed men, but they would be better armed and mounted (even in Uther and Anarchy) than Saxons (armed peasant farmers, rougher and tougher than British farmers by a long shot, but against a professional they are not so tough. Except for their leaders.)

--greg

60 days makes plenty of sense as a term of hire, Greg... it's
(1) Time to arrive in service
(2) Time to get there and fight
(3) time to get back to base of operations
(4) time to divvy the loot.

For foot units, 10 miles a day is a good hard walk, and 15 on the outside. 20mi a day can be done, but only with high casualties... and only for a day or two, like when routing.
For Foot, 15 a day sustained is doable for a week or so... but only if your war mount isn't your ride.
War without modern vehicles is BLOODY SLOW...

30 day hire would require the units be close by, the target be close by, and the raid not turn to a siege...

I will have to interpret some of your questions, 'cuz I don't quite understand 'em.
Please forgive my reinterpretation of your list.

I can be a bit hard to follow sometimes... :-\



One of my players suggested that he hire 100 or so knifemen for ?2 (they're ?1 per 50 in the BotM) and go off with those.

Wow, reserve me a few dozen will you? Can you give me the page on that? I see and use page 12, BoM.



I think my utter inability to remember rules properly is now well documented. This is why I'm always wanting things in pdf. I seriously have to wonder how I functioned in society before the find command came along.

I could have sworn I saw that figure somewhere, but oh well.





I also don't know how much service ?1 buys. A month? A campaign? Enough for a raid but not enough to pillage?


BoM, p 12: "The price shows is for 60 days." Although for the life of me I can't figure out why I'd do it for 60 instead of 30. Hence that list, above, which is much easier to understand.


Now I understand. The way I read p 12 was that steady employment of a, say a bowman, was a ?1 per 60 days if hired as a long term soldier.

I take it now the ?1 listed hires a bowman for a year provided he's kept on from year to year. Likewise the same ?1 buys 2 mercenary bowmen for 60 days, who are then let go.



Also my players all want to go raiding Saxons and not Britons. Would raiding Saxons be any different than raiding Britons?


Probably only in that the Britons would have fewer armed men, but they would be better armed and mounted (even in Uther and Anarchy) than Saxons (armed peasant farmers, rougher and tougher than British farmers by a long shot, but against a professional they are not so tough. Except for their leaders.)


So how would you handle this? As a skirmish? Actually play out the fight with using the normal combat rules? Would the PCs fight again if they were to pillage? Yet again if they plunder?

So how would you handle this? As a skirmish? Actually play out the fight with using the normal combat rules? Would the PCs fight again if they were to pillage? Yet again if they plunder?


To be honest I think it's all down to the DM with regards to raiding I wouldn't get into a massive calculation about how much it costs and how many men, unless it is really relevant to the game e.g

1. My knights want to make a bit of easy cash they gather some men and of they go to the neighouring lands. Use gregs raiding table and give them a chance of being attacked. The further they go into enemy terriority, the numbers of attacks and the bigger the settlement the harder it will get. So until the settlements can put of a defense or a force is put together to stop them, just roll on the table, then maybe go to a skirmish combat.

Then knock of a bit of profit for men, a bit to their lord to keep him sweet and a few ?s for themselves.

2.The anarchy period is upon us and they decided to go raiding, now firstly they are diverting men from their defenses could this be used by a foe to take advantage. Secondly the retalitaion could be harsh especially from the Saxons who have slipped their leash.


I am not saying let your players make a fortune over knight, but unless it really effecs the story and you want to take a lot of time do it quickly.

So how would you handle this? As a skirmish? Actually play out the fight with using the normal combat rules? Would the PCs fight again if they were to pillage? Yet again if they plunder?



Handling it would depend on how important it is to the story.
If it's incidental, a Skirmish roll and an appropriate Trait roll, then a little income.
Since everything has consequences, the time spent on this may be of significance.

Sometimes the raid is the story itself, maybe to introduce an NPC or place that'll be important later, etc. That'll deserve an on-the-table melee.

It is best to mix it up with the players too. If every raid is just three die rolls then it'll become routine and meaningless. Sometimes surprise the players with a full melee, or with larger forces ambushing them, as the lead-in to a scenario, etc.

--g

I have come up with a short set of rules for Raiding (based on all the responses in this thread). Specifically, it allows players to use their Family knights, Lineage Men, and Levys. The more personel they bring, the safer they are in the raid and the more loot they'll gain.

(If anyone is interested, I'll PM the rules or Post them here).

My question (which may belong in a new thread???): I know Family Knights are not easily replaced, but can you replace Lineage Men and Levys? Would I use the Book of the Manor's rules for population growth?

A raid, using my short house-rules (mentioned above).

It is the year 500 and two of the player knights decide to raid into neighbouring Marlboro. The GM determines the difficulty is "Easy" (and abstract measure of the target's defences and distance) since they are attacking the farmland of an adjacent county. This incursion will only take 1 week.

The player knights give a rousing speech to their kin, bringing along 2 family knights, 5 lineage men and a Levy of 35 men each. This meets the minimum size for a "Raid" but not enough for a "Pillage".

The player knights lead the raid into the neighbouring farmlands. To see how successful they are, the leader (chosen between the players) must roll. Since this is a small-scale raid, he can choose between Battle or Hunting skill.

He rolls a success, and only suffers minor casualties (1d6 Levys), which he subtracts from his men. He would not have suffered any casualties had he rolled a critical, or even more casualties had he failed. He also gains a check to Vengeful.

Both player knights net ?1d6 from the raid.

My players are always bugging me for ways to use all those Lineage Men and Levys they rolled during character creation. This system was a way to use that resource - making raids "feel" more risky as they dwindle that resource

I'd love to see your raiding rules.

A raid, using my short house-rules (mentioned above).

Both player knights net ?1d6 from the raid.

[i]


I believe the 1d6 net was just for raiding one neighboring manor. If they raided for a week and tore up a lot of manors it should be a bit more. I am not sure where it is , but in the GPC , under one of the short adventures sections is a raiding scemario where any player that raid gets a certain amount of librum depending on how many negative trait checks they are willing to take. If you sheck a selfish you get 1d3 libra for example and each trait check represents a week or so of raiding i believe ( I could be wrong about the time length). So you are gaining Libra in exchange for lessining of your chivilric and religion traits, which makes sense since raiding might be practical, but I am not sure that it is chivalrous. ;D

A raid, using my short house-rules (mentioned above).

Both player knights net ?1d6 from the raid.

[i]


I believe the 1d6 net was just for raiding one neighboring manor. If they raided for a week and tore up a lot of manors it should be a bit more. I am not sure where it is , but in the GPC , under one of the short adventures sections is a raiding scemario where any player that raid gets a certain amount of librum depending on how many negative trait checks they are willing to take. If you sheck a selfish you get 1d3 libra for example and each trait check represents a week or so of raiding i believe ( I could be wrong about the time length). So you are gaining Libra in exchange for lessining of your chivilric and religion traits, which makes sense since raiding might be practical, but I am not sure that it is chivalrous. ;D

GPC P. 158 PILLAGING THE SAXONS with each negative check netting 1D6+2 libra. But that was after Badon, where the Saxon armies were broken and their lands wide open for plundering. There have been similar rules in previous Pendragon supplements.

It depends more on just who you are raiding and what they got to take, then on how long you are there. It's like the old Robin Hood joke.

"Why do I rob from the rich? Well, when I started I tried robbing from the poor, but they are poor. They don't have anything worth stealing."

Raiding defenseless peasants is easy, but not very profitable. Raiding manors can be much more profitable, but they aren't as easy. Kill the lord of the manor and most of the able bodies men in battle, and the manor can be cracked open and enjoyed like shellfish.

Raiding defenseless peasants is easy, but not very profitable. Raiding manors can be much more profitable, but they aren't as easy.

Exactly. That's why I have added the "Difficulty" factor to my raids (posted in the message below). The more difficult, the more reward, but your raiding skill check takes a penalty. Failure on the check doesn't result in any less loot take, but more casualties instead.

Raiding


Step 1: Choose a Target
Decide where you want to raid. Is it the neighbouring manor? A Saxon occupied city? Or even a daring raid to the mainland?

Step 2: Determine Target's Difficulty
Difficulty is an abstract measure of the target's distance and how vulnerable they are. And because it includes distance, the difficulty will determine the duration of the incursion.

Difficulty ExamplesDuration
EasyA neighbouring manor, farmland in the adjacent county, an unguarded road within 30 miles, etc.1 week
AverageFarmland up to three counties away, a lightly fortified manor, a guarded trade road, a village within 100 miles
3 weeks
HardFortified cities, small castles, land farther than 100 miles away.
6 weeks


Duration includes planning, travel time, and the battle itself. The summer raiding season is limited, as is the military obligation of vassal knights, so typically only one incursion can be made per year. Duration is also important when determining your knight's stwardship (BotM, pg.42) or if he's there to defend his manor against people raiding him (BotM, pg. 42). It also determines how much you'll have to pay your mercenaries.

Step 3: Choose your Personnel
The more personnel you bring with you, the safer you'll be and the more loot you'll gain.
The minimum number of personnel needed for an incursion:

Incursion Size Knights Lineage Men Levy
Raid1330
Pillage1030300
Plunder501501,500


Knights: this is typically player characters and their family knights, who lead and plan the attack, with the ability to fight other encountered knights.
Lineage Men: knight's brothers and cousins trained to intimidate and fight the commoners.
Levy: manor personnel wused to drive the stolen cattle & sheep, ride the wagons, feed the troops and limited fighting.

Step 4: Determine Casualties
Determine the casualties your personnel take when you attack your target. Your leader makes an unopposed skill check (based on the incursion size), modified by the Target's Difficulty.

Skill Check
Raid: The leader rolls the higher of his Battle or Hunting skill. He gains a check to Vengeful.
Pillage:The leader rolls the higher of his Battle or Siege skill. He gains a check to Selfish.
Plunder: The leader rolls the lower of his Battle or Siege skill. He gains a check to Cruel.

Skill Check Modifiers for Target's Difficulty
Easy: +0
Average: -5
Hard: -10

The results of your skill check (above) will determine the Raid Casualties for each category of personnel. If you end up with more casualties than you have men in that category, excess casualties must come from another category (player's choice).

Raid Casualties Results

Skill Check Knights Lineage Men Levy
Critical---
Success--1d6
Failure11d21d20
Fumble1d21d63d20


For Pillage: multiply rolled casualty results x10
For Plunder: multiply rolled casualty results x50

Any time a Player Character is determined to be a casualty he instead goes into a normal melee combat (played out in rounds) against his opponent. Based on your target (e.g. Saxons, Brits), use a typical opponent from the Book of Armies (or from the KAP rulebook).

Step 5: Determine Loot
The incursions' Reward is based on the same skill check your leader made in step 4 (don't roll twice). The results are the net Libra in looted goods each knight will receive. Payment to your personnel (lineage men and levy, but not mercenaries) and supplies for the incursion (food, wagons, etc) have already been deducted from this amount.

Incursion Level Easy Average Hard
Raid£1d6£1d6+3£1d6+5
Pillage£2d6£2d6+6£2d6+12
Plunder£3d6£3d6+10£3d6+20


Note: in addition to possible retaliation, raided enemies will start to put up defences against return incursions. Each year of raiding the same target causes their difficulty level to increase one step. Each year you don't raid that enemy, the difficulty return's to the previous year's step.

Thread necromancy attempt

I like this, thanks.

Your step 5 says the loot is based on your roll as in step 4 but the loot gained doesn't seem to be effected by anything other than the difficulty of the task and the type of task. What did you have in mind?
Also shouldn't the leader of the raid get more loot?

If I'm reading it correctly, the loot listed is the leaders share AFTER paying out everybody else. 1d6 £ is a pretty good haul for a raid--after all, a typical Manor only produces 6 £ a year for the knight! It could probably be tweaked for game reasons without much issue.

Not sure about the crit issue. I'd probably say:

Crit: move the rewards up a category: An easy raid is rewarded as if it were an easy pillage. Pillage as if it were plunder. Plunder is doubled. Only increase dice, not the modifier (so 3d6+10 becomes 6d6+10, not 6d6+20)

Fail: move the rewards down a category, to a minimum of 1d3

Fumble: You're caught before you can plunder much and driven off. You gain no plunder, but still owe any 1d3 X 1 (easy), 2 (average) or 3 (hard) £ for your mercenaries and your peasants Hate (Landlord) increases by 1, 2, or 3 (depending on type of Raid) plus the amount of Libra owed.

I'm still getting a handle on the system, but that's what my gut is telling me.