One of my players spotted that in the KAP5 rulebook, when two combatants both beserk the one with the highest Move rate goest second. In previous edtions the character with the highest Move went first.

Is going second an offical change, or an error ? Inquring Picts want to know.

It's a misprint. However, in KAP 5.1 the attack is resolved simultaneously. Also, the rules concerning two characters using the Uncontrolled attack against each other have changed slightly;

The opponent against an Uncontrolled Attack may either:
• make a free attack, unopposed, and fi rst; if the attacker is knocked down, his round is over. If the attacker is not stopped, he strikes with his +10 skill. The defender’s shield always counts in this if he has one; or
• Defend, skill versus skill, each with their +10 bonus. All combat in this case is calculated as if regular combat. (Remember, ties have no effect.)
In a fight where both use the Uncontrolled Attack, both strike with +10 simultaneously. p 119, KAP5.1

Thanks Sir Pramalot,

I was thinking misprint, too, but 5.1's simultaneous timing appeals to me. It prenents fast character from autmatically counter-beserking.

It prenents fast character from autmatically counter-beserking.


What do you mean? I at least require my players to announce their tactics first, before I reveal what the enemies are doing (jhaving made up my mind before asking the PKs, naturally).

I do admit that allowing the faster move go first gives them the advantage in a hypothetical simultaneous berserk situation. However... would this be such a bad thing? I would be tempted to go a bit further and say that highest DEX strikes first, to give that often overlooked stat a bit more oomph.

Speaking of which... One way to make DEX very important stat would be to say that the combatants declare their actions in the order of the DEX. Thus, the higher DEX fighters can take advantage of the knowledge what the other guy is about to do. 'He is defending? I think not! Berserk!' or vice versa. Granted, this can be unbalancing, and I haven't tried it out, but certainly this would make DEX much more important.

Dex much more important? Other than being the default stat for all movement, balance, wrestling and brawling? I have thought Dex was nearly a superstat without using it for combat too. I like the idea of simultaneos in that it reflects the view that you each strike at each other without thought to defense.

DEX doesn't get used for knockdown when on horseback, arguably the most important dex-type roll in the game. (Edited to add: One of the most common house rules I've seen relates to this - some GMs use DEX in place of horsemanship, or use the lower of the two, or use the average of the two, for knockback while on horse. I'm partial to using the lower of the two, but I make sure to include plenty of other opportunities for horsemanship rolls, otherwise it gets neutered.)

The other uses of DEX are largely flavour, or desperation. No-one in the right mind relies on it. My ranking of the stats is roughly: SIZ is the uber-stat, DEX and CON are roughly equal in importance, with STR a little lower. APP isn't worth mentioning in these terms - it's use is completely different.

DEX doesn't get used for knockdown when on horseback, arguably the most important dex-type roll in the game. (Edited to add: One of the most common house rules I've seen relates to this - some GMs use DEX in place of horsemanship, or use the lower of the two, or use the average of the two, for knockback while on horse. I'm partial to using the lower of the two, but I make sure to include plenty of other opportunities for horsemanship rolls, otherwise it gets neutered.)


And I've seen GMs roll DEX and *then* roll Horsemanship for horse knockdowns. I'm just using a straight Horsemanship roll.



The other uses of DEX are largely flavour, or desperation. No-one in the right mind relies on it. My ranking of the stats is roughly: SIZ is the uber-stat, DEX and CON are roughly equal in importance, with STR a little lower. APP isn't worth mentioning in these terms - it's use is completely different.


Wholly agree on that stat ranking. It's quite comical scanning some of my player's character sheets and seeing that, by and large, their STR scores are all average or worse, but 50% still have a 5d6 damage score due to SIZs of 16+. However, I don't think this is a game fault, and I don't think SIZ is overmodelled in game as it fairly accurately reflects reality.

It prenents fast character from autmatically counter-beserking.


What do you mean?

WHat I mean is that simultaneous "all ourt" attacks prevents a faster opponent (PC or NPC) from also doing an all-out, knowing that they will get to attack first.



I at least require my players to announce their tactics first, before I reveal what the enemies are doing (jhaving made up my mind before asking the PKs, naturally).

As GM it is your decision to make the PCs declare first or the NPCs. PC's declaring first is not required by RAW.I usually varry it from round to round.I've been thinking of letting the winners of the previous round declare second, but that might be cumbersome with a lot of combantants.

The other uses of DEX are largely flavour, or desperation. No-one in the right mind relies on it. My ranking of the stats is roughly: SIZ is the uber-stat, DEX and CON are roughly equal in importance, with STR a little lower. APP isn't worth mentioning in these terms - it's use is completely different.


I've been considering letting Combat skills star off at DEX/4 or even DEX/3 instead of 0. It wouldn't makde a big difference on any partfcilar skill, but would save the PCs some points, and make getting to 15 a bit easier.

I7m considering a similar rule tor APP and social skills, too..

The other uses of DEX are largely flavour, or desperation. No-one in the right mind relies on it. My ranking of the stats is roughly: SIZ is the uber-stat, DEX and CON are roughly equal in importance, with STR a little lower. APP isn't worth mentioning in these terms - it's use is completely different.


Amongst the recent player characters, the trend has been towards getting 6d6 in damage. This means SIZ pretty much maxed out, and STR almost maxed out. I think the highest DEX is 11-ish, while the CON is around 14 thanks to the +3. We rolled APP (giving 50 points to the other stats). I have seen different builds, though. One current PK is SIZ 12, STR 15. I can't recall his other stats. But that small SIZ has proved often to be a bane as the PK almost invariably needs to test DX for balance when he gets hit, unlike the SIZ 18 PK.

One of the older PKs, dead at Badon, had CON 21. I don't think he took more than one or two major wounds during his whole career, while the other knights were taking almost one a year during the heavy fighting of the years leading to it.



I've been considering letting Combat skills star off at DEX/4 or even DEX/3 instead of 0. It wouldn't makde a big difference on any partfcilar skill, but would save the PCs some points, and make getting to 15 a bit easier.

I7m considering a similar rule tor APP and social skills, too..


Not a bad idea, in principle... I know we contemplated DEX/2 as a default skill for all weapons, too. We do have a houserule in place that weapon skills cost only 0.5 points up to 10, to let a knight to train up a new weapon skill relatively quickly to a potentially usable level. Starting the skill at DEX/3 would not be unbalancing: 3 or 4 for most, 5 for some rare cases. Not a biggie, but might reward higher DEX a bit more.

That said, DEX is one of those stats that get dramatically better the more you have it. With DEX 10, you fall 50% of the time you need to check it. With DEX 15, you fall only one quarter of the time, in other words twice as rarely. And getting your DEX to 18... then you will fall only 10% of the time. Add couple of glory benefits and you will never fall on your face again, unless you get damage twice your SIZ (which is another concern for the low SIZ characters). Then again, those 10 points in SIZ are even better by comparison, making the DEX tests much rarer, putting that double SIZ strikes to 40, and giving 1.5 dice more damage as well as 10 hit points... I am pretty sure that most of my players would rather have a knight with STR 20 and DEX 10, than vice versa, but your mileage may vary (actually they are savvy enough to have SIZ 18, DEX 15 and STR 15, were they have the points).

Hmm... Using APP as a basis of courtly skills has one small problem... At least for us, Courtesy is often taken as one of the 'Skill at 10' -picks in chargen, which totally ignores any influence of APP in this scheme. I'd be tempted to use APP as either a modifier to all relevant skills (maybe take that table of the number of distinguishing features and use that number as a bonus/penalty?), or as extra points to be spent on courtly skills (quick idea being (APP-10)/2 extra points). My gut feeling would be to go for the modifier, actually, since then it would be relevant during the whole career and not just in chargen.

highest DEX strikes first, to give that often overlooked stat a bit more oomph.



I am fully aware that I am contributing to a spot of thread drift here for which apologies.

I don't agree that Dex is underused in PenDragon. It is used in the way that a whole raft of skills would be used in other games. For sure in the 'hitting people til they die' or 'socialising at court' parts of the game its not very useful (although not useless) but for all sorts of derring do it is essential. (One might question how heroic a Sneak roll is for Knights but getting past a Giant or Dragon - which isn't a chivalrous foe anyway - without dying is quite in keeping with many a faerie tale)

Greg's rule for piling on the pounds (be they middle aged spread or the effects of being musclebound) go some considerable way toward making Siz less appealing as the uber stat.

I am a fan of weapon skill starting at 1/2 dex. Generally the PCs main skills will be uneffected, but it allows them to grab that dagger once and a while. Zero just seems a little weird to me.

I am also a fan of attacking in order of dex (like in BRP) for allout/berserk/uncontrolled attacks. To spice it up, thought, you might require opposed dex rolls to see who strikes first.


NT

I am also a fan of attacking in order of dex (like in BRP) for allout/berserk/uncontrolled attacks.


Problem: In reality, hitting your foe once his axe is approaching your helm usually results in a double kill, not a win. There was a good article on this in SPADA II if you want more details.

I am also a fan of attacking in order of dex (like in BRP) for allout/berserk/uncontrolled attacks.


Problem: In reality, hitting your foe once his axe is approaching your helm usually results in a double kill, not a win. There was a good article on this in SPADA II if you want more details.


It might depend on how quickly you strike. Perhaps if your dex is 5 more than your opponent's, you would get to strike first...or if you succeed and your opponent fails in a dex role. Essentially, you both decide to attach, but you act faster (enough) to beat your opponent to the draw.

Imagine a high-noon shoot out. Both combatants are going to attack. One does it faster.

NT

I am a fan of weapon skill starting at 1/2 dex.

I used to be a fan of this. I then switched over to the "weapon skills cost half up to 10". i like it better. DEX is already pretty important, and it's only gamer-think that automatically equates DEX with weapon skills. In reality, all of the stats apart from APP would contribute to the unskilled level, as would certain traits like Valourous. But when I was using the DEX/2 rule, I noticed players never used that rating anyway (and with good reason).
The "half-cost to 10" rule allows players to get up to level 10 in one year (usually) and close to 15 in another, and it's only then that will usually start using it.

I'm happy with players having skill 0 in many weapons, and if they are forced to use them, they should try to do it in a way which allows them to use a passion to get some skill in it.
Note also, the KAP 5/5.1 character design system allows players to have a second weapon at 10+ if they want it. So I see no reason to give extra skills.

I am a fan of weapon skill starting at 1/2 dex.

I used to be a fan of this. I then switched over to the "weapon skills cost half up to 10". i like it better. DEX is already pretty important, and it's only gamer-think that automatically equates DEX with weapon skills. In reality, all of the stats apart from APP would contribute

True. I like half DEX though. In the end it depends upon how 'realistic' one wants to be. Realistically one should probably have a generic combat skill with added specialties for certain weapons. Combat involves more than just knowing how to swing a sword. Things like footwork, initiative and reading your opponent's intentions are all important. To me it has always seemed ridiculous that one could have Sword 20 and Mace 2 (or whatever). This is probably the main thing I've always dislike about the Chaosium family of games. It's obviously not a big deal though.

The bonus of Pendragon though is that the system is intentionally very simple, and it is easy to have house rules to 'correct' one's particular 'issues'. Allowing all melee weapons to default to 1/2 best (lance not included) is something I've used. It has very little impact on play because PCs generally use their best weapon anyway.

This particular mechanic seems to bug people in one way or another because it pops up again and again. I like the game as written..then just house rule that particular mechanic to suit your preferences.

We've kind of derailed this thread with discussion of DEX and base weapon skills. I've created a house rule thread over here (http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=1170.msg9433#msg9433) for further discussion of base weapon skills.