I know this topic has been discussed separately from time to time on the boards, I just wanted to share an idea I'm thinking of trialing.

I had many problems with the Uncontrolled Attack. I know some GMs don't but I am not one of them. My PKs used it all the damn time, and I mean *all*. In an attempt to return some nuance to combat and bring it back from the binary death fest it was becoming, I modded the attack so that the defender also had +10 to hit and still went first. This stopped its usage dead in all but the most extreme cases; usually where the defender was unable to attack for whatever reason. Fine, problem solved. But it also porks Berserkers. They drop like flies. I could just forgo the All Out Attack and give all Berserks a Love (Battle) Passion but that's for another thread. In the meantime I re-thought it.

1) Uncontrolled Attack - Make a free attack, unopposed, and first; if the attacker is knocked down, his round is over. If the attacker is not stopped, he strikes with +1D6 damage. There is no +10 to attack.

The reward for this is significantly lower, I can't see it being used that often, which suits me, but it also doesn't seriously weaken a Berserk. Although no better than using a two handed weapon it does afford you extra damage potential with a normal weapon if you're willing to take the risk. Those already using 2 handers can also up their damage, again at a risk.

Spontaneously, I like the idea very much ...

And after thinking a while ... I may be to weak. Would a PK expose himself thusly, for +1d6 damage? I'm not sure. Perhaps +2d6 damage instead? Or +5 to the attack?

I think it would mostly be used - and possibly abused - to quickly drop weak foes with low damage. You wouldn't use it against anyone that would force a DEX roll with an average damage roll (unless the PK have a very high DEX).

I suggest +1D6 purely to keep it within the framework set by other weapons, and to try and walk the very fine line between too strong/too weak. There will of course be holes, but none that I've yet thought of that are quite as bad as those I encountered before.

I suggest +1D6 purely to keep it within the framework set by other weapons, and to try and walk the very fine line between too strong/too weak. There will of course be holes, but none that I've yet thought of that are quite as bad as those I encountered before.

I agree. Perhaps you should use it and report back after five or ten sessions?

Perhaps a +5 bonus against an opponent using Total Defense, or something of the sort? It does prevent Total Defense from being used to stall for time almost indefinitely, and does stay in line with the earlier rule stating that Total Defense vs. All-Out Attack negates both.

The problem with Uncontrolled attack is the skill bonus combvined with it being an unopposed roll, especially with characters who are getting close or exceeding 20 skill. So, a +5 bonus is not as bad, but still problematic.

I think a +1d6 is way too weak (though it's relative - when you are covered in plate armour and facing bandits, knights will probably use it exclusively - until enemies start targeting horses (and then they'll get plate armour for their horses)).

I don't have a good solution but one thing: whatever you decide for Uncontrolled Attack, you can keep the old rules for Berserkers. Berserkers are an npc/monster, and don't have to follow the same rules as PCs. Just like the way some monsters can fly, or make multiple attacks or spit acid, saxon berserkers let opponents attack them unopposed and then attack with +10 bonus.

Berserkers of saxon legend might have other advantages - like triggering Valour rolls to face them, or taking less or no damage from swords or maybe all cutting weapons, or never going unconscious (including from major wounds) while berserk, and for good measure, making one extra attack after dead, like boars. My saxon berserkers are quite frightening :)

I don't have a good solution but one thing: whatever you decide for Uncontrolled Attack, you can keep the old rules for Berserkers. Berserkers are an npc/monster, and don't have to follow the same rules as PCs. Just like the way some monsters can fly, or make multiple attacks or spit acid, saxon berserkers let opponents attack them unopposed and then attack with +10 bonus.


I'm more and more convinced that this is the only way to handle all-out attacks in the game. Berserkers use them and nobody else ... It will always be very hard to make an all-out attack/berserk rule for PKs that is not either overpowered, underpowered or leads to strange side effects (like Pramolots idea here, which I think would be used very often against weak opponents, but seldom against strong opponents).

Require PKs to succeed at a Reckless check to do an AOA? With famously Reckless characters (which religious wotanic heathens, such as beserkers, all are) able to bypass the check?

That way PKs can 'abuse' the tactic all they want if they are willing to accept the consequences of having a high Reckless - live fast, die young and all that.

Regards
Luke

Require PKs to succeed at a Reckless check to do an AOA? With famously Reckless characters (which religious wotanic heathens, such as beserkers, all are) able to bypass the check?

That way PKs can 'abuse' the tactic all they want if they are willing to accept the consequences of having a high Reckless - live fast, die young and all that.

Regards
Luke


I did this in my campaign. Really doesn't solve the basic problem. Players that don't mind their PK going down in a blaze of glory will abuse the rule anyway, and live as long as they can with a high Reckless score. And such characters don't necessarily die young ...

I don't have a good solution but one thing: whatever you decide for Uncontrolled Attack, you can keep the old rules for Berserkers. Berserkers are an npc/monster, and don't have to follow the same rules as PCs. Just like the way some monsters can fly, or make multiple attacks or spit acid, saxon berserkers let opponents attack them unopposed and then attack with +10 bonus.

I'm more and more convinced that this is the only way to handle all-out attacks in the game. Berserkers use them and nobody else ... It will always be very hard to make an all-out attack/berserk rule for PKs that is not either overpowered, underpowered or leads to strange side effects (like Pramolots idea here, which I think would be used very often against weak opponents, but seldom against strong opponents).

Me too

Me too


But in the name of King Arthur - don't touch the Fight defensively rule! It's excellent!

Outlawing the tactic is always a solution. I've so far resisted - and made do with rule tweaks - because I like giving PKs tactical options. Something to use judiciously above and beyond the usual combat mechanics. Upon first reading the special combat maneuvers (AOA and AOD) I thought they sounded great, giving that extra angle my players enjoy. It was only after several sessions that the problems with AOA began to surface (AOD on the other hand remains issue free).

Underpowered is probably true. Id rather start low and ramp up if necessary. Until I play test I can't say for sure. I'm not convinced knights would use it exclusively against weak opponents; PKs would prob not see the value in opening themselves up to a hit vs an opponent they could just as easily defeat normally. However, even if they did it's not an issue of the same magnitude. In my experience AOA was used in quite opposite circumstances; when facing really tough & dangerous foes. Despite the terrible odds and appalling consequences PKs would still attack AOA because they pretty much knew it would take down anything if they got lucky. IMO that's the problem with any combat move that gives a + to weapon skill. It ups the chance of a critical - a huge bonus worth risking all for.

EDIT - Upon reading the Double Feint I thought that was great too and wondered why it wasn't in 5th Ed. Then Darren told me it would often lead to comical keystone cop scenes of knights falling over from failed DEX rolls in their constant attempts to use it.

Outlawing the tactic is always a solution. I've so far resisted - and made do with rule tweaks - because I like giving PKs tactical options. Something to use judiciously above and beyond the usual combat mechanics. Upon first reading the special combat maneuvers (AOA and AOD)

Tactical options are good, I agree, and players (that mysterious breed of people) seems to like it. But game balance is very important, or options will be abused or not used at all. And I think that kind of balance is hard to achieve in a game that is as simple as Pendragon in comparison with say Dungeons and Dragons 3.0/3.5. In the latter game, many combat actions are based on class features and feats, i.e. a character can "Cleave", but since he choose Cleave, he didn't get Spring Attack (or what ever). Characters bye their combat options with a limited amount of points, so to speak. You could solve that partly in Pendragon by introducing prerequisites [whoa, I spelled it correct on the first try!] one the lines that you must have Reckless 16+ to AOA or DEX 15+ to Double Feint, but if you overpower these options from the beginning - and I think both are to powerful - that will just lead to legions of PK knights that are extremely thoughtless or nimble.

It is symptomatic, I think, that the two combat options in Pendragon that actually work, Dodge and Fight Defensively, don't deal any damage. So what this issue comes down to is how to make offensive tactical options that are balanced.

I think your model might be worth a test, Sir Pram. I hope that you do give it a try and report back to us.