Moderator note: this topic was split off from Sharp's thread here (http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1399). Now we can discuss Spoonists rules with abandon!
+1 thumbs up for Sharpshooter

And here I thought the 5 skill points was a real rule and not some homebrew. Well, as the oldies might remember I've butchered the system quite a lot over the years, so my players think that is "how it should be".

Here is my list of (major) changes:

1) Passions have both positive and negative checks. So you can get - checks on a passions just like you can with traits.
2) Horses/Wives/Children all have a frailty value of 1-20, which is then rolled against when sick, etc.
3) Passion roll, divided into "normal" and "epic". (so that "small" passions work and you don't get the 5% of all knights ran into the forrest at start of battle effect)
4) When struck with a blunt weapon, then when you get a Knockdown/Critical result the target must also roll a CON check to stay conscoius.
5) We seperate named/unnamed NPCs. So unnamed NPCs have a low fixed skill set. While named have a higher skill set which may increase.
6) Winter phase upkeep differentiation. Skippped clothing and replaced with a Courtly maintenance. Split into Manor/Family/Martial/Squire&steed maintenance. So you can save on one and spend on another.
7) Multiple skill checks - up to 4 checks a year. (too many of our years are mutli episodes)
8] Shield damage, and thus shield breakage.
9) Multiple crit options, most notably PRESS a reflexive ±5 vs a single opponent. NO combat options unless after a crit. (So berserk/double feint etc only after crit)
10) Limit on the crit double damage to +3d6 regardless of normal damage roll vs 'noble' opponents, unless you take a "cruel" check and get full double damage.
11) Yearly and kin events, random tables, for backdrop.
12) Glory bonus +100 for 'bard' duty (ie taking notes and writing down the story in a blog)
13) Changed the random courting bits to a more victorian feel.
14) All income + loot is in "goods" if not spent during the winter phase that is converted to half the value in "coins". (To prevent un-knightly savings).
15) Lowered all initial skills, to avoid the crit game of "nothing nothing nothing dead" especially lowered noname NPCs so that the PKs truly become heroes.
16) A simple and a complex manor system, so that players who want to do SimKnight can while the rest can skip it.
17) Fear passion, what is that?
18) AGE:ing, in standard KAP when rolling a 6-8 on the age table nothing happens plus 6 on the secondary table, we have changed this to a loss of 1d6 skill points from the 16+ weapon skills. Yes, that is harsh for old guys.
19) No "glory points" in SIZ, STR, CON after 50 winters.
20) Age rolls start at 30 winters.

etc
I could probably go on to 100

+1 thumbs up for Sharpshooter

And here I thought the 5 skill points was a real rule and not some homebrew. Well, as the oldies might remember I've butchered the system quite a lot over the years, so my players think that is "how it should be".

Me too. No kidding. "Which knockdown are we using now?" "Did we keep the pink Crits?
Have pity on my players who come to a session ready for fun, and instead I tell them, "OK everyone, throw away the goldenrod [colored paper] notes, I've got a new system." :)
I like seeing these lists from people who have played. I loath seeing them from people who have not actually played all the way through. One way to always tell: they complain that the armor is too weak."

I only wish to share a few things.


16) A simple and a complex manor system, so that players who want to do SimKnight can while the rest can skip it.

I sure got tired of being an accountant too.
In the forthcoming Book of the ESTATE, it has no accounting game session. A knight just farms his manor to someone for £6 which he gets each year at winter. He gets all the bonuses for building the cool stuff, plus a sequence of builds going through the GPC period-by-period.
Maybe some day I will do the Book of the STEWARD, with an upgraded accounting system.
BoESTATE is being worked on in tandem with BoBARONS and BoUTHER PENDRAGON. I want the economics to run properly through them all.

Nice list, too!

Well, as the oldies might remember I've butchered the system quite a lot over the years, so my players think that is "how it should be".Me too. No kidding. "Which knockdown are we using now?" "Did we keep the pink Crits?
Have pity on my players who come to a session ready for fun, and instead I tell them, "OK everyone, throw away the goldenrod [colored paper] notes, I've got a new system." :)".Jupp, I'm so bad at this that nowadays I put a Save_Date marker on all printed documents so that we can keep track of whose cheat sheet is the latest/correct version.
Each player has a folder for their stuff and sometimes I just simply replace their prints with new ones, so that next time I can say - its in the rules look for yourselves...
:o





16) A simple and a complex manor system, so that players who want to do SimKnight can while the rest can skip it.I sure got tired of being an accountant too.
In the forthcoming Book of the ESTATE, it has no accounting game session. A knight just farms his manor to someone for £6 which he gets each year at winter. He gets all the bonuses for building the cool stuff, plus a sequence of builds going through the GPC period-by-period.
Maybe some day I will do the Book of the STEWARD, with an upgraded accounting system.
BoESTATE is being worked on in tandem with BoBARONS and BoUTHER PENDRAGON. I want the economics to run properly through them all. Yea, its usually fun for the PKs first manor ever, but when you scale it up to 3-4 manors or a banneret, then one needs a quick rule.


Nice list, too!
Ask if you want details or motivations for any specific ones.

21) Aggravated damage that doesn't heal until next summer and if you get another is kept another year. etc
22) You get aggravated damage from heavy hits 1/10, major wounds 1/5 and fumbled first aids.
23) If you have a major wound and continue to fight you get 1 aggravated per round.
24) Never glory from income, always glory for spending (1/£).
25) Division of skills into Ordinary/Courtly/non-knightly/combat. With some balancing so that you need to spread them etc.
26) APP is added to your courtly maintenance, this gives a ± to courtly skills.
27) Division of Steeds and Mounts, where steeds are named horses with its own stats, book-keeping etc while mounts are simply a yearly cost and no book-keeping.
28) A "virgin" directed chaste trait for maidens.
29) Relationship passions divided into Lust/Love/Amor/Devotion, with different aspects.
30) Expanded the old concept of a squire roll, with family/manor/retinue rolls linked to maintenance. To reduce accounting and list-makings.
31) Passions max out at 19.
32) Squires roll Horsemanship for taking care of one steed, this means they might earn checks, and if they fail the horse gets frailty.
33) Knights teach their squires by giving 1 trait point per annum and select 3 skill points.
34) Players play their heirs as secondary characters from they are pages at 10. This means they are incorporated into events long before they earn their spurs.
35) Ordinary manors can patch of land for vassals instead of building improvements, like for thanes that then serve as soldiers or riders depending of it being a cottage or a homestead.
36) We have a plot-bank. After and between sessions the players can write down plots that they want played. They can also suggest plots for the other players. Usually its simple things like visit that place, but sometimes big ones like kinstrife vs that family.
37) Staff has to be assigned and apprenticed into skills, you can not 'gain' a fully trained staff unless gifted from someone else. Skills are low for unnamed staff. Novice 2 Apprentice 4 Geoman 8 Master 12.
38) Horses training sets their valor. So if you raise horses yourself they only get basic training and valor 8. Then they can be trained in hunt/combat/tilt/battle.
39) A PK can always request a lustful roll to get a bastard in the village, handy when they die.
40) You can use a spear/spearskill in a tourney, but lance/lanceskill have "first strike". This is also the norm during Uther, which clearly shows the superiority of lance.

Spoonist, it's a very impressive list. I don't agree with most of them, but there sure are some interesting ideas in you list.
It might have been impressive if it had been consistent but as I said I could probably go up to a hundred if I would digress into soft world stuff as well.
Then well, if you or someone else liked all of them I'd be scared. Its custom for mine and my players style, so of course it wouldn't be everyones cup of tea.
Heck my players hardly all agree with every change just the majority, or sometimes just me...
I'd say we have a meta-fight like the grumpy old men we are every 5 sessions or so...

But as I said, just ask and I can give a motivation for each one like I've done before.

As a side note; are you interested in some lists with stuff in swedish? If so PM me an email. Stuff like this:

Termer
Knape – riddersman – riddare – husriddare – friherre – ädling – baron – greve – hertig – kung – kejsare
Vagabond – menlös – fattighjon – hjon – statare – tjänstehjon – tjänare – gesäll – ämbetsman
Slagordning – garde – förtrupp – tross – huvudstyrka – reserv – flygel – flank – överflygling – omfattning
stuga – torp – hemman – villa – gård – socken – säteri – härad – län – landskap – land – rikeetc
You could always steal what you like and diss the rest.

Those are great lists, Spoonist. Several of them could I think be worthy of separate threads on their own.

Haha, I've also had to put a save date on some of my rules handouts too :)
I guess a lot of us GMs are inveterate tinkerers.

Those are great lists, Spoonist. Several of them could I think be worthy of separate threads on their own.

Haha, I've also had to put a save date on some of my rules handouts too :)
I guess a lot of us GMs are inveterate tinkerers.
Sure, anyone you want to discuss? Between us tinkerers... 8)

There's a few that catch my eye, but this thread is more for Sharp's house rules, we've kind of hijacked it.

There's a few that catch my eye, but this thread is more for Sharp's house rules, we've kind of hijacked it.


Well, I wanted to create (or foment?) discussion, so I guess I really can't complain, can I?

But I do think that Sir Spoon might be needing to start a thread of his own.

And here it is! :)

Once this Spoonist thread started on its own, discussion ceased!

I'd love to discuss many of the above items Spoonist lists. Namely, I'd like to hear more about them. I'm loving your yearly event/kin event lists and thus would likely enjoy more of your style of play in our game.

I plan to use the following immediately
- Passions max at 19
- Virgin directed Chaste trait for maidens
10 - Crits do max of +3d6 vs noble targets unless take check on Cruel
7 - Multi-skill checks up to 4/year
14 - Income not used in Winter phase is converted to 1/2 value in coins

Furthermore, I would love to hear more about 6 - courtly maintenance and upkeep differentiation: manor/martial/squire/horse.

Also I'd love to hear more about 13 (Victorian courting bits)

And 2 (Horses/wives/children frailty value of 1-20. How is that initially set? How does it change?

Please elaborate on 3, 25, 29, 30, 35, 39, and 21-23 about aggravated, lingering damage.

I'd love to learn more about, and discuss most of these, but this is plenty to start. Please deign to explain how it works for you, and it's effect on your game.

Once this Spoonist thread started on its own, discussion ceased!

Actually, it was split by moderator from another tread ...



- Passions max at 19

It's a good, solid fix that removes a lot of scope for power gaming.



- Virgin directed Chaste trait for maidens

I add honor to all Christian womens Chaste. Yes, that means that they end up with chaste 30+ and is very hard to seduce. Thats the way it should be.



7 - Multi-skill checks up to 4/year

This will lead to skill inflation. If you are generous with one check per year, PKs will become very skilled. In this system they are bound to become extremely skilled.

7 - Multi-skill checks up to 4/year


I'm currently road-testing the idea (originally posted by Darren I think) of rolling advancement tests as they are earned, only marking a check on the sheet if the advancement test succeeds and then using winter to actually advance the checked attributes.

This gives you multi-skill checks (for commonly used skills/traits at least) without increasing the advancement rate beyond 1pt/year.

So far it appears to be working quite well.

Regards
Luke

Here is my list of (major) changes:
:
3) Passion roll, divided into "normal" and "epic". (so that "small" passions work and you don't get the 5% of all knights ran into the forrest at start of battle effect)
:
8] Shield damage, and thus shield breakage.

I'd like to incorporate these into my games but can't figure out the mechanics. Could you please tell me how they work? Thank you.

- Virgin directed Chaste trait for maidens

I add honor to all Christian womens Chaste. Yes, that means that they end up with chaste 30+ and is very hard to seduce. Thats the way it should be.



ahahahaaaaaaaaaa

really hope you don't gave a daughter in any kind of parochial school

- Virgin directed Chaste trait for maidens

I add honor to all Christian womens Chaste. Yes, that means that they end up with chaste 30+ and is very hard to seduce. Thats the way it should be.



ahahahaaaaaaaaaa

really hope you don't gave a daughter in any kind of parochial school


I should perhaps explain, that I am talking about fantasy women in the Pendragon game in the last sentence, not necessarily real ones.

Also, that I deduct 1 point in Honor for knights that seduces noblewomen. Because that kind of thing just isn't honorable.

7 - Multi-skill checks up to 4/year

This will lead to skill inflation. If you are generous with one check per year, PKs will become very skilled. In this system they are bound to become extremely skilled.
Nope. When I compare my players combat skills with those in other campains and especially Greg's this is not true. Instead what happens is that those skills from other skill sets than combat become more useful, so you don't need to resolve everything with combat because that is the only thing that you are good at.
This is because most PK's increase their combat skills by choice through winterphase yearly+glory, not through checks. So if the choice is combat vs non combat most PK's will feel forced to choose combat skills for survival, with our system that is no longer true.
I'll elaborate more on this if people want to - but here is the old one in the same vein.
http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=623.msg8310#msg8310




Here is my list of (major) changes:
:
3) Passion roll, divided into "normal" and "epic". (so that "small" passions work and you don't get the 5% of all knights ran into the forrest at start of battle effect)
:
8] Shield damage, and thus shield breakage.

I'd like to incorporate these into my games but can't figure out the mechanics. Could you please tell me how they work? Thank you.
Sure, passions:
http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=302.0

If you PM me your email I can send the tables.

The basics for shields is:
Metal shields take '10' hits, wooden '5' hits.
Per 5 damage in a hit vs shield you get one 'hit', axes do double hits so '2' per 5, while arrows do half so '1' per 10.
When a shield has taken those first 10 'hits' its def is halved so only protect 3 points.
Then the soft rule is that a knight always have one metal and one wooden shield, the rest you have to roll for with an equip roll.

So a knight fights and gets a 28 dam with shield, the player checks 5 'hits' on the shield - its half gone. It still protects 6. Then a 19 dam, 3 'hits', still full protection.
Another 16 dam, 3 'hits', total 11 'hits'. So the shield is cracked and protects only 3 instead of 6 and is 1 'hit' into being completely broken, another 9 left.
The knight calls for his squire to fetch a new, ie 1d6 vs equip. If he succeeds another metal shield is brought, if failed the squire fetches the wooden one.
If the wooden one breaks, the 1d6 vs equip is if there were another wooden one, otherwise the knight has none left.

I'll respond to the rest later.

Forgot this, look at the "House Rules character sheet":
http://www.gspendragon.com/1pcs.html
When you look at the sheet you will see the shields we use. First hits goes as a dash /, then when cracked you cross the dashes with another dash \ making a cross.
Some discussion from here
http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=937.0

Nope. When I compare my players combat skills with those in other campains and especially Greg's this is not true. Instead what happens is that those skills from other skill sets than combat become more useful, so you don't need to resolve everything with combat because that is the only thing that you are good at.
This is because most PK's increase their combat skills by choice through winterphase yearly+glory, not through checks. So if the choice is combat vs non combat most PK's will feel forced to choose combat skills for survival, with our system that is no longer true.
I'll elaborate more on this if people want to - but here is the old one in the same vein.
http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=623.msg8310#msg8310


Then we have different experiences. I agree that players tend to concentrate on combat skills. And stats, traits and passions, with skills coming in last. But once players have 400+ in annual and 25+ in the Holy Trinity (Horsemanship., Lance, Sword) they tend to discover their skills.

I was quite generous with skill checks during my campaign, and most PKs became very skilled in their 30s and 40s. A few of them had 10+ in almost all skills.

Once this Spoonist thread started on its own, discussion ceased!Pretty much, but this forum has never been that active in "discussions" so its normal.

I'd love to discuss many of the above items Spoonist lists. Namely, I'd like to hear more about them. I'm loving your yearly event/kin event lists and thus would likely enjoy more of your style of play in our game. Thanks. Feel free to criticize as well. Me I like the discussion part, it usually refines thoughts and houserules.

Furthermore, I would love to hear more about 6) - courtly maintenance and upkeep differentiation: manor/martial/squire/horse. OK, this is a bit for the 'heavy rpg' slant of stuff. My take on Pendragon is that it should be a kind of fairytale. Thus if you get too bogged down in details its not within our feel for 'Pendragon'. After playing a while it dawned on us that equip lists was one of those things. If the players define every nook and cranny of their manor and list every single item in their packs down to the spare socks - then that isn't fairytale, that's D&D boardgaming. Thus removing such stuff would be beneficial for RPGing. But how to do it? Well we simply took the squire roll concept and copy pasted it to the basic stuff surrounding a knight.
Then we had a different issue and that was that me being a cruel bastard as a GM, the knights would go from riches to poorer and back every now and then. What the players then felt was that they could not follow their character when it came to maintenance, ie why would a knight care about clothing, horses or somesuch when his family is starving. etc. So we had to tweak the system to give some player choice on how to spend their libra when poor. But the reverse was also true, when high in plunder what to spend that plunder on?
Add to this that ever since I played way back in the 80s I've disliked the clothes rules, "halving" etc, because it had no real effect.
Solution:
Seperate the maintenance. Each maintenance would be divided into a roll 1-5 with a cost attached. That way the rich and the poor knights could each select where to spend and how much. We tinkered with it a bit and found that horses was not one of those things to be clumped into a category since that spoiled some other aspects. But you can find them in this document, it's our version of a winter phase (see attached pdf, tell me if you want the doc instead).
So its divided into;
Martial maintenance
Family maintenance
Courtly maintenance (replaces clothing)
Manor maintenance (roll for staff, etc)
Squire maintenance (here we had to be detailed, so a cost per squire)
Steed maintenance (here we had to be detailed, so a cost per horse)
Mount's maintenance (really a leasing fee for noname horses, like extra rounces etc)

Also I'd love to hear more about 13 (Victorian courting bits) Its the one in the event tables. ie in reality ones family and/or lord would decide who to marry, but that's not fun. So just take victorian etiquette and copy paste it unto a medieval setting.
Think british BBC costume drama, with chaperoons walking 10 feet behind etc. Several suitors all knowing about each other. All the intrigues back and forth, until marriage.

And 2 (Horses/wives/children frailty value of 1-20. How is that initially set? How does it change?For the horses - yearly depending on maintenance. Then every time you do something stupid to the horse like adventuring in winter, I'll just arbitrarily say +1 frail.
For wives - from childbirth and aging.
Initial value is 0. Then over the years they acumulate. If then you have a bad situation - like childbirth for a wife or double-march for a horse, you roll 1d20 vs frail. If lower then your broken/sick/barren or whatever fits the story.
As an example. We had one very young wife who had three bad births in as many years, leading to a failed frailty roll. So her family came over and talked fiercly to the knight on values and how he mustn't share the covenant with her until rested etc. Lots of emberrassment for everyone and lots of good fun roleplaying. Think old ladies yelling at fameous knights over marital issues. After some more drama the wife ran away and took the oath of chastity at a convent - leading to more good roleplaying when the spurned knight found out and then tracked her down.

Please elaborate on 3, 25, 29, 30, 35, 39, and 21-23 about aggravated, lingering damage.
I'd love to learn more about, and discuss most of these, but this is plenty to start. Please deign to explain how it works for you, and it's effect on your game.
Too many things for me to go into details in this post, gimme a top three and I'll go into those.
3 - see above.
25 - see the character sheet above, then cross reference that with the winter phase above
29 - too long a topic for now
30 - see winter phase above
35 - I have two different systems running side by side. Simple economy and complex economy, my players can chose themselves whichever one they want. Unfortunately they are in swedish so I can't just post them.
But the basics is that you have a certain amount of land and a certain amount of income. By investing in the land, building roads and houses, you can vassal out land for specific services. Or you can list your income and then vassal out certain items of that.
39 - In winter phase, family, its simply that. Roll a lustful (and get a check), if passed roll a pregnancy roll for a village girl. (If you crit a lustful we roll 2d3 pregnancy rolls). If the PK wants he can also spend money for a better concubine as well. This means that most of my PK's have at least one bastard in their teens/early twenties. This leads to lot of roleplaying opportunities.
21-23 - I'll just copy paste our rules summary in the next post, just ask if you have any questions.

Then we have different experiences. I agree that players tend to concentrate on combat skills. And stats, traits and passions, with skills coming in last. But once players have 400+ in annual and 25+ in the Holy Trinity (Horsemanship., Lance, Sword) they tend to discover their skills. Yupp, different experiences indeed. In my current campain we have gone through four generations and some 20 characters. The number of combat skills >20 I can count on one hand.

If the 400+ is glory, then I don't even know where to start. That's an insane amount of annual Glory - is that before adventuring?


I was quite generous with skill checks during my campaign, and most PKs became very skilled in their 30s and 40s. A few of them had 10+ in almost all skills.Was it fun for them?
As a GM I'm a wee bastard, so I can't even imagine the skill levels and distribution that you are talking about.

If the 400+ is glory, then I don't even know where to start. That's an insane amount of annual Glory - is that before adventuring?

Yes. I had huge problems with glory inflation. I was to generous with Trait and Passions checks early, and then there was no stopping it. But in the 5.1 ed version you don't get annual glory for Traits (as opposed to earlier editions), which is excellent. Bye, bye, glory inflation.


As a GM I'm a wee bastard, so I can't even imagine the skill levels and distribution that you are talking about.

Well, I was a bit of bastard too, and killed a lot of characters. But I also was generous, with checks and glory. Players love that. It's all about balance, I think.

21-23 - I'll just copy paste our rules summary in the next post, just ask if you have any questions.

WOUNDS
Light <CON
No effect other than HP loss
Major >CON
Chirurgery needed and 10% of the damage is aggravated. The character may still act but heavy exertion gives more aggravated damage.
Mortal >HP
Must come to positive hp in a day to survive. If the aid given fails then the character dies. If in one hit then a third of the damage is aggravated.
If successful Chirurgery or First aid is given but not to positive hp then the patient is convalescent and dying. Such patients may last until exerted or at most until winter.


FIRST AID
Fumble Chirurgery needed
Fail -
Success Heal 2 or 1d3 hp
Critical Heal 5 or 1d3+3 hp
Takes 10 combat rounds.
One attempt per wound, each subsequent attempt adds one aggravated damage, regardless.
After midnight all wounds get the First aid done check.


CHIRURGERY
Fumble Deterioration, 1d3 hp
Fail Deterioration
Success Patient is healthy
Critical Heal 1d3 hp, double healing rate 1 week
All Chirurgery needed are treated with the same roll.
If failed the status remains.
Only one attempt per week.


DETERIORATION
If a "Chirurgery needed" patient receive none or failed treatment add 1d6 to the wound where 1 hp of that is aggravated. Note that a resting and convalescent patient still gets a healing rate.


EXERTION
If characters in need of surgery exert themselves then they receive aggravated damage.
Rest Get healing rate
Light No healing rate
Moderate 1 per day
Heavy 1 per round


AGGRAVATED DAMAGE
Aggravated damage does not heal as normal. Instead they heal one point per month next year’s June to August.

If the 400+ is glory, then I don't even know where to start. That's an insane amount of annual Glory - is that before adventuring?Yes. I had huge problems with glory inflation. I was to generous with Trait and Passions checks early, and then there was no stopping it. But in the 5.1 ed version you don't get annual glory for Traits (as opposed to earlier editions), which is excellent. Bye, bye, glory inflation.
See if I can sort this out
100 for chiv
100 for rel
130 for stats
70 for passions
Is that about right?

So If you were as generous with adventure glory then they would have a guaranteed glory point, at least every two years, more probably 2 points out of 3 years, and sometimes one per year.
That right there gives the inflation in combat skills vs my take on things.
Multiple checks is trivial to that.

See if I can sort this out
100 for chiv
100 for rel
130 for stats
70 for passions
Is that about right?

Yes, thats right.


So If you were as generous with adventure glory then they would have a guaranteed glory point, at least every two years, more probably 2 points out of 3 years, and sometimes one per year. That right there gives the inflation in combat skills vs my take on things.
Multiple checks is trivial to that.

Yes, it is. But I think that all forms of inflation needs to be kept in check in this game, not only Glory and Combats skills. Skill inflation will create Glory inflation too.

I my mind, a character should increase four things though checks an average year. This sounds little, but a PK could well last several decades. At age 41, this means an average PK will have increased 80 "pips" in total. Let say 20 points in traits (enough to make anyone Chivalric and/or Religious), 10 in Passions (solid increases in the four basic, and one or two others), 30 in skills (several skills will be in the 10p to 15 range, i.e. vary good) and 10 in combat skills (when training and Glory is added, we will have a good fighter.

So that would be my take if I ran this game today; if the PKs increase some three to five things from checks each year, their characters will become very good in due time - but not totally unbalanced.