My changes to the Glory system are largely reflect5ed in the current 5.1
I removed Glory for high Traits for two reasons: why Glory for one type of action? It is their combination that is important. The second reason is you get Glory for those combos.

But I am testing something else this time in the new campaign.
It is dividing Fame from Glory
The difference is simple:

All Glory you got before for spending money is Fame
All Glory you got before for getting money (manor, holdings) is Fame

Glory is for those things that knights do that cannot be bought

Fame rises and falls, too

Better perhaps to call it Status. But isn't it already reflected in grade of maintenance? If you're Rich, you get X Status, and so on. Mind you, this just seems like needless additional bookkeeping to me. Is there a purpose to it in the game at all levels? If this is a barons-only thing, just set it as their Glory equivalent. Knights collect Glory, magicians collect Insight, barons collect Status. Now we just need a good term for what ladies collect, and that takes care of all the likely character types.

I like the term Renown.

I do like the idea of a trait that rises and falls, which can cope with the idea of knights falling out of the limelight, and the best way to do that is to separate it from Glory in some way. So it doesn't mess with the way players gain benefits from glory.

You can also give bigger awards to fame for things like spending money, that you wouldn';t want in glory.

Do you have a system document we could look at?

My changes to the Glory system are largely reflect5ed in the current 5.1
I removed Glory for high Traits for two reasons: why Glory for one type of action? It is their combination that is important. The second reason is you get Glory for those combos.


But it removes motivation for players to get high traits (not all players want to be religious).
I'd rather remove the glory bonus for religious/chivalry (as these already have other bonuses and are thus desirable)



All Glory you got before for spending money is Fame
All Glory you got before for getting money (manor, holdings) is Fame
Glory is for those things that knights do that cannot be bought


Eh, what's fame and what's glory according above?

Why separate them? Just more bookkeeping that doesnt really add anything.
It only tells you which NPCs got their glory from money and which from deeds. But as simple description line does the same and more (famous for his many castles, famous for dragonslaying, etc).
I agree on upping the glory reward for spending money, not a single player in two campaigns ever did that.

fg,
Thijs

My changes to the Glory system are largely reflect5ed in the current 5.1. I removed Glory for high Traits for two reasons...

Oops. I missed this somehow. Although I now see the one explicit paragraph on page 104 that says "No Glory is gained for simply having high Traits or Passions or Skills.", there are numerous references to winning Glory for high Traits in KAP 5.1 that confuse this issue and actually had me thinking I should be following the the old (now obsolete) rule of rewarding Glory for high traits. I provide these here mainly as a reference—you may want to rephrase these in the next edition. These may simply be legacy bits from former editions:

p. 65, 9th paragraph: "Any dramatic pattern of behavior gains Glory. As a result, characters with interesting personalities gain more Glory than those without. However, behavior in accordance with society’s ideals still gains more Glory than actions arising from one’s idiosyncrasies or peculiarities."

p. 66, 2nd paragraph: "...for traits and passions may gain you Glory."

p. 66, 6th paragraph: "Basically, if you get Glory for a trait or passion, you should expect rolls based on that value to be made quite often."

p. 100, 3rd paragraph: "Knights receive Glory for doing the things that knights do, whether those are behaviors according to the ancient warrior virtues, or the late medieval ideals of chivalry and fine amor."

FWIW, I prefer the "Renown" label as well.


Best.


T.

My replies are going to be brief, and to the points



Better perhaps to call it Status.

It is important a collective statistic, and will include everyone in your family, whatever their status


But isn't it already reflected in grade of maintenance?

No


If you're Rich, you get X Status, and so on. Mind you, this just seems like needless additional bookkeeping to me.

Because I didn't explain it's entire purpose
It really will matter only if one is also playing the unwritten game of the Family, in the unpublished Book of the Family.


Is there a purpose to it in the game at all levels?

Yes


If this is a barons-only thing,

It isn't.

I like the term Renown.

Nice word
but incorrect, as it generally has an implication of combat, which is inappropriate
Renown = Glory


Do you have a system document we could look at?

No

Many thanks for this.

ERRATA STEWARD, TAKE NOTE!!





My changes to the Glory system are largely reflect5ed in the current 5.1. I removed Glory for high Traits for two reasons...

Oops. I missed this somehow. Although I now see the one explicit paragraph on page 104 that says "No Glory is gained for simply having high Traits or Passions or Skills.", there are numerous references to winning Glory for high Traits in KAP 5.1 that confuse this issue and actually had me thinking I should be following the the old (now obsolete) rule of rewarding Glory for high traits. I provide these here mainly as a reference—you may want to rephrase these in the next edition. These may simply be legacy bits from former editions:

p. 65, 9th paragraph: "Any dramatic pattern of behavior gains Glory. As a result, characters with interesting personalities gain more Glory than those without. However, behavior in accordance with society’s ideals still gains more Glory than actions arising from one’s idiosyncrasies or peculiarities."

p. 66, 2nd paragraph: "...for traits and passions may gain you Glory."

p. 66, 6th paragraph: "Basically, if you get Glory for a trait or passion, you should expect rolls based on that value to be made quite often."

p. 100, 3rd paragraph: "Knights receive Glory for doing the things that knights do, whether those are behaviors according to the ancient warrior virtues, or the late medieval ideals of chivalry and fine amor."

FWIW, I prefer the "Renown" label as well.


Best.


T.

Eh, what's fame and what's glory according above?

Why separate them? Just more bookkeeping that doesnt really add anything.
It only tells you which NPCs got their glory from money and which from deeds. But as simple description line does the same and more (famous for his many castles, famous for dragonslaying, etc).
I agree on upping the glory reward for spending money, not a single player in two campaigns ever did that.

fg,
Thijs


I'm really with Dr Krijger on this one. Moore bookkeeping for little gain. I like the simplicity of the Glory concept.


So, you don't get Glory for hight Traits and Passions? :o Since we are only told that in one place (?) in the 5.1 ed rulebook, I assumed that that was wrong, since there are many references to the old rule.

It sure does put a lot of less emphasis on chasing high traits and passions. High traits and passions are still very useful, so I do think that many players would still pursue them, even if they do not want to become chivalric or religious.

The first edition didn't have glory for traits and passions (just chivalry and being religious). People still chased them then.

The first edition didn't have glory for traits and passions (just chivalry and being religious). People still chased them then.


I do think that some players, lets call them the control freak type, would have very few traits or passions over 15 if they didn't get Glory for them. But I don't see that as much of a loss.

High Passions are double edged, but most players would want a high passion or two that might be rolled for Inspiration without to high a risk of failure. Some traits would still be very good, even if the player leaves some control to the GM with 16+ traits. I do think that Valorous and Energetic would be very popular even if you abolish annual glory for high traits and passions.

I'm really with Dr Krijger on this one. More bookkeeping for little gain. I like the simplicity of the Glory concept.

Me too
I do not expect anyone to like or understand it when it stands alone like I posed it
Two points to consider in its use:
1. I don't like rich guys getting Glory for being rich. That is not what Glory is about. Glory is about deeds.
2. Glory is for knights only. No one else gets Glory in KAP. The actions that earn Glory are so dangerous that normal folk (commoners, clerics) consider them to be idiotic. Ordinary people, seeking widespread acknowledgement of their success, earn Fame.
Accumulated Fame accrues collectively to Family, and gives a measurable value to how much an entire family has.
It's optional, of course!


So, you don't get Glory for hight Traits and Passions? :o Since we are only told that in one place (?) in the 5.1 ed rulebook, I assumed that that was wrong, since there are many references to the old rule.

My editorial oversight, probably. Sorry

Me too
I do not expect anyone to like or understand it when it stands alone like I posed it
Two points to consider in its use:
1. I don't like rich guys getting Glory for being rich. That is not what Glory is about. Glory is about deeds.
2. Glory is for knights only. No one else gets Glory in KAP. The actions that earn Glory are so dangerous that normal folk (commoners, clerics) consider them to be idiotic. Ordinary people, seeking widespread acknowledgement of their success, earn Fame.

Accumulated Fame accrues collectively to Family, and gives a measurable value to how much an entire family has.

It's optional, of course!

Well, I agree with 1). But one solution to solve that and save the Glory system is to give Glory only to spending, never for income only. Say 10 Glory per £ (as I think someone suggested above).

And 2) makes perfect sense. It makes the split into Glory and Fame comprehensible. I just don't know if it is strictly needed in a game about knights. So, I'm happy thats it's optional!



My editorial oversight, probably. Sorry

It is a rule that really solves much of the problems with Glory inflation that has been discussed on the forum lately. It strips some 200 to 250 in Annual Glory from the most maximized PKs. I haven't thought it through properly, but I do like the sound of it.

Will there be a 5.2 (or 6.0) ed that will take care of all the known errata?

Well, I agree with 1). But one solution to solve that and save the Glory system is to give Glory only to spending, never for income only. Say 10 Glory per £ (as I think someone suggested above).

Some things cannot be bought: Glory and Honor.


And 2) makes perfect sense. It makes the split into Glory and Fame comprehensible. I just don't know if it is strictly needed in a game about knights. So, I'm happy that it's optional!

All supplements are optional.




My editorial oversight, probably. Sorry

It is a rule that really solves much of the problems with Glory inflation that has been discussed on the forum lately. It strips some 200 to 250 in Annual Glory from the most maximized PKs. I haven't thought it through properly, but I do like the sound of it.
Will there be a 5.2 (or 6.0) ed that will take care of all the known errata?

I hesitate to promise the item I am working on today, never mind promising a hypothetical book, no matter how desirable
I hope that the data is being collected from here, for instance, to accumulate on my poor neglected, deliciously and deliberately archaic web site
If someone has the collected errors, send 'em to me off line.

Ah—one more, that I missed before:

p. 66, para. 2, 3rd sentence: The two systems are inextricably linked, though, for traits and passions may gain you Glory.

This is perhaps the single biggest offender...


T.

Greg, you mentioned in this thread that you no longer want to award Glory for high traits. On page 104 of KAP 5.1, you state that no Glory is gained for simply having high Traits, Passions or Skills.

If that's true, here's another piece of errata for this who are cataloging such things:

pg. 75 of KAP 5.1, paragraph 8 under Strengths and Weaknesses:

Famous passions also generate Glory; each winter, a character normally receives Glory for any passions with a value of 16.


Thanks,


T.

Just an update on this

I realize what an error I would be commiting to change the Glory system. (I always have ideas, mentally muse and playfully play, and then realize the obvious.)

Fame will be outside of Glory, in addition to Glory actually; and in that manner will take into account funds that are more than the 100 that you get Glory for.

-g

That does sound like the best way to go.