Some esteemed members of this forum think that APP is a "dump stat", a stat that due to it not being really integrated in the game and don't help character suvival, tends to be neglected b players.

This is my experience too. My players tended to make PKs mostly with an APP of 8-10. You could go lower, but APP 3 will make a PK bedridden as much as STR 3, so wise players seldom push their luck with a lower starting APP. Occasionally, I would see a player build an APP 16-18 PK, "just to be really handsome", but there never seemed to much middle ground. Knights, in my campaign, were ether handsome as Lancelot or just plain.

There is a good thread on this subject stared by Earl da la Warr (http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1302.0), and I wrote a bit about my take on how to make APP relevant in the game. I'll try to make my point a bit more clear here, and also solve the problem of Glory bonus.

I don't like the way that Glory/1000 give a bonus to number of skills (I'm not saying that the system is unreasonable, just that I don't like it). Sure, in a game like this, Glory should be important, but as this rule is written it makes it less rewarding for players to invest in courtly skills. Why? Because if you make a build with good physical stats (ignore APP, for heavens sake, it doesn't make you a better fighter) and good combat skills - and this is what most players will go for anyway, since the game is so deadly - you increase you chance of survival and of getting combat and battle glory. And once you reach 8,000 to 10,000 in Glory, with the Glory bonus, you will still be rather good with many social skills. So why would you invest skill point in those skills in the first place? You're right, you wouldn't. This is a BAD THING, because it make PKs more homogeneous, drive players to make only combat builds and make skills less important.

Yea, I know the rules state "A player can always request such a bonus to Courtly skills, but the Gamemaster is always the arbiter of how much or how little a bonus the character actually gains". The problem with this rule is that it gives no guidelines, and that some players will always as for this bonus, and saying "no" or, "ok, but you only get a bonus of +10 from your 24,000 in glory" becomes boring rather fast.

I want to solves this problem, and make APP more relevant in one go.

This is the way to do it.

1) Glory never gives a bonus to skills. It gives a bonus to the APP-roll (below).

2) In any given social situation, when a player want to use a courtly skill, the Gamemaster decides whether the PK has "automatic spotlight" or not. A PK with "automatic spotlight" may roll the skill, and Glory does not matter. If the PK do not have "automatic spotlight", he must make an APP roll, modified as below, to be able to make roll.

What is "automatic spotlight"? This would be up to the GM, but it think this would work rather intuitively. In your own hall / at your own wedding / at your own hunt? You've got it! At your lord court, pleading your case? You've got it! Being interview at a foreign court? You got it! In most other situations, you don't got it. If a player cant convince the GM why in this particular situation, his PK would have "automatic spotlight", he doesn't, and thus he can't roll his skill. Because those maids won't dance with him, that lovely countess is swamped with flirts and don't give our PK any attention, the feasting won't quite down to here his oratory or the herald will let the bard continue singing rather than let the PK take the floor.

3) The APP-roll. Roll the d20 against APP.

Glory-modifiers:
Ordinary, Respected Glory: -5
Notable Glory: 0
Famous Glory: +5
Extraordinary Glory: +10
Legendary Glory: +15

Status-modifiers:
Round Table Knight: +5
Baron, or higher status: +5 (or more)

Clothing and jewelry:
According to or above station: 0
Below station: -5

This means that high glory and status PKs would get the floor, so to speak, far more easily than low Glory or low status PKs, but would then still have to depend or their unmodified skill. Suddenly, APP becomes rather important, at least until you hit Extraordinary Glory (which will take a long time), and, well, those skills becomes important if you want to succeed at court and get that courtly Glory.

You could make the system for modifiers much more complex, but I would personally prefer to keep it simple, so that the Gamemaster can memorize the system.

This is how I would handle APP if I ran Pendragon today.

When one of my PK talks to a lady I'm presently using an opposed APP roll to see if she takes any notice or is busy chatting to someone else. It's abstacted of course. I use it to simulate very high APP women being more sought after and harder to attain. If the roll falls it means the woman takes no notice or is otherwise engaged at the present time. The knight is free to try again later.

I could fit your suggestion for the APP bonus (the spot light mechanic) quite easily into that. Succeed and you get the bonus, fail and you don't. Or even, fail outright and she's not interested or busy elsewhere, partial and you get no spotlight bonus, succeed and get spotlight bonus.

There is another consideration here though. Clothes and jewels already add to APP (as does the Fashion skill). With Glory adding to APP too the system can quickly become overloaded. Even a 3 APP knight could look princely with enough cash and Glory, and an 18 APP one is off the scale.

Even a 3 APP knight could look princely with enough cash and Glory, and an 18 APP one is off the scale.

Sounds like it simulates the real world quite nicely then!


T.

Now are you suggesting that Donald Trump just gets women because of his money? ;). I think his comb-over nets him +3 APP.

When one of my PK talks to a lady I'm presently using an opposed APP roll to see if she takes any notice or is busy chatting to someone else. It's abstacted of course. I use it to simulate very high APP women being more sought after and harder to attain. If the roll falls it means the woman takes no notice or is otherwise engaged at the present time. The knight is free to try again later.

This is how the rule above started for me.


There is another consideration here though. Clothes and jewels already add to APP (as does the Fashion skill). With Glory adding to APP too the system can quickly become overloaded. Even a 3 APP knight could look princely with enough cash and Glory, and an 18 APP one is off the scale.

Yes. That's why I give no bonus for being dressed according to your class, and -5 for being poorly dressed (and bejeweled). I experimented with a cap equal to half APP in bonus for clothes and jewelry for a while, but I think this rules is a better take. Dressing above class just makes you look proud and stupid, I guess the argument would be.

There is another consideration here though. Clothes and jewels already add to APP (as does the Fashion skill). With Glory adding to APP too the system can quickly become overloaded. Even a 3 APP knight could look princely with enough cash and Glory, and an 18 APP one is off the scale.

Yes. That's why I give no bonus for being dressed according to your class, and -5 for being poorly dressed (and bejeweled). I experimented with a cap equal to half APP in bonus for clothes and jewelry for a while, but I think this rules is a better take. Dressing above class just makes you look proud and stupid, I guess the argument would be.


Of course. Sorry I read that just after posting.

I do think this is a topic that's currently vague in the rules so it's good to see your thinking on this. I'd probably look to give a bonus for dressing above staton and drop the Glory bonus a tad from the values you suggest. Other than that I could use this as is.



I experimented with a cap equal to half APP in bonus for clothes and jewelry for a while, but I think this rules is a better take.

How did that work out? I'm currently using exactly the same rule but none of my PKs is of sufficeient wealth& APP to have reached the cap.

Of course. Sorry I read that just after posting.

I do think this is a topic that's currently vague in the rules so it's good to see your thinking on this. I'd probably look to give a bonus for dressing above staton and drop the Glory bonus a tad from the values you suggest. Other than that I could use this as is.

I read sloppily all the time ... :P

Well, I did want to include a bonus for lavish dress, but +5 is just such a hefty bonus. An APP 10 PK would just need to go for the clothes and a nice ring or two and short circuit my whole system.

Of course, you could cut down the glory bonuses, as Morien did in the other APP-thread (http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1302.15). I really liked that post, but it is a bit to complicated for my taste.



How did that work out? I'm currently using exactly the same rule but none of my PKs is of sufficeient wealth& APP to have reached the cap.

It did work okay, I would say. It did get my players to think a bit more about clothing and jewelry, and ugly PKs couldn't just buy themselves beauty. But even if a PK with APP 10 couldn't get more than APP 15 in this system, I still think it's to generous (that is, if we want to make APP a relevant stat, which is the object with this little system). APP 14 + £6 = automatic successful APP-roll. But a cap is better than no cap at all, thats for sure.

Perhaps one use of having Glory add to appearance is just to have it offset any APP lost to battle wounds and possibly to aging. This seems to mirror the real world somewhat -- after all Sir Richard of Harrow certainly has his fans ;) which Sir Hit-with-the-Ugly-Stick-at-birth would not have. Also older, glorious knights may age into "silver foxes" due to the esteem people have for them. Glory could help naturally homely knights, but maybe at half the rate.