Log in

View Full Version : Heraldry for bachelor knights and knights mercenaries



Taliesin
05-15-2012, 04:49 AM
Do household knights have the right to wear their own coat of arms? Or do they wear the colors/device of their lord? What about mercenary knights?


Thanks!


T.

silburnl
05-15-2012, 10:16 AM
I don't think it's explicitly stated, but the tacit assumption is that household knights have their own arms. Mercenary knights might have their own arms or they might not (if they are Cavalrymen or Esquires working as mercenary 'knights' for instance).

Given that it's not stated one way or the other, in my game I have taken the liberty of saying that only vassal knights (and above) have personal arms in the early days - household knights use plain shields or some simplified variation of their liege's arms. The spread of personal coats of arms to all knights is one of those things that starts to happen during the anarchy and then gets formalised as part of the valorisation of knighthood and chivalry in the early part of Arthur's reign.

The wheel turns full circle later on in the reign with the introduction of scutage, livery and other innovations and you start to see more and more retinues of badged retainers once again.

Regards
Luke

Taliesin
05-15-2012, 11:44 AM
Excellent. Thanks, Luke.


T.

Cornelius
05-16-2012, 06:28 PM
I am not sure how it should develop in the GPC, but I would rule that all knights have the right to bear their own coat of arms. Becoming a knight means you become nobility and as far as I know all nobility have a coat of arms.

Taliesin
05-16-2012, 07:00 PM
I'm not sure you're considered nobility unless your landed—a vassal knight. Household knights and knight mercenaries are, for the most part, poor and entirely dependent on the largesses of their noble sponsor. Merc knights are just a rung up the social ladder from a commoner.


T.

Greg Stafford
05-16-2012, 10:22 PM
The simple answers are..


Do household knights have the right to wear their own coat of arms?

Yes


Or do they wear the colors/device of their lord?

No


What about mercenary knights?

Yes

If using a pseudohistorical GPC approach then the practice of knights having their own individual devices expands to the knightly class in the Boy King

Taliesin
05-17-2012, 01:21 AM
Yes.

If using a pseudohistorical GPC approach then the practice of knights having their own individual devices expands to the knightly class in the Boy King


So...that means heraldry is only used by lords in the Uther and Anarchy periods?

Sorry to be so pedantic, but I want to be crystal clear...


T.

Spoonist
05-18-2012, 03:23 PM
Yes.

If using a pseudohistorical GPC approach then the practice of knights having their own individual devices expands to the knightly class in the Boy King


So...that means heraldry is only used by lords in the Uther and Anarchy periods?

Sorry to be so pedantic, but I want to be crystal clear...


T.

Doesn't it actually say that in the chapters in GPC?

Taliesin
05-21-2012, 02:16 AM
@Spoonist:

Not that I can see. Maybe I'm missing something. It is a rather large book...


T.

oaktree
05-21-2012, 03:17 AM
Heraldry as a section at the beginning of the Boy King Chapter. Heralds and registry of arms is coming into vogue at this point.

I connect this in part to the introduction of the closed helm as the next step in armor evolution. A knight's face is now totally hidden and thus an alternate means of recognition becomes all the more important.

How the extension of arms and identifying marks creeps from the nobility down to the vassal and household knights appears to be up in the air and a bit flexible. You can come up with your own story and introduce it in some way. With armies being gathered it could start small, be seen, and then more widely adopted from there. Here's a couple of suggestions for it off the top of my head.

A group of Roman knights recall that the legions had identifying shield marks and decide upon a common mark for their squad to use. This is noticed and emulated by other Roman knights, and then spreads from there.
After the Battle of Terribil where the night assault caused confusion in identifying friend or foe plans are made to prevent further issues by marking shields before a battle.
Some larking squires paint additional marks on shields - eyes, teeth, etc. to some battle marks (see above). An upset knight has a better design painted in rather than go into battle with a "smiley face" shield.
It's another "northern" thing with knights using widely painted shields much as they start wearing colored armor in later periods.
It's a European fashion thing brought over by the Aquitanians in order to attract the ladies.

headwound
05-21-2012, 03:31 AM
@Spoonist:

Not that I can see. Maybe I'm missing something. It is a rather large book...


T.


As it has been pointed out, it is mentioned in the Boy King section (however, nothing mentioned before that and some scenarios in the early periods have you making heraldry checks to recognize people), but I missed it as well when I started my campaign. I figured if my knights are gonna be using couched lances in 485, they can have personal heraldry as well. I did do a brief retcon when I noticed it and mentioned that Heraldry is very loosely defined and not guaranteed to be unique. I hope that gives me some fun conflicts when King Arthur shows up and Heraldry becomes official.

oaktree
05-21-2012, 03:38 AM
There's a short adventure in a KAP3 era book where you get exactly that. The knights stop overnight at a manor. Another knight gets hospitality there as well. Turns out that said knight and the host have very very similar coat-of-arms, which leads to a dispute in which the player knights get asked to judge if the designs are too similar. (Roll Heraldry please...)

Found it. "Adventure of the Questioned Heraldry". p105 in _Blood and Lust_.