So, I've been wondering — how would one go about simulating the fading of love between man and wife? There are all kinds of shocks to the system that might threaten even the highest of Passions: affairs, lies, inability to produce an heir, boredom, the spouse's personality, the list goes on. But I can't see a way to adjudicate this in the rules. There's a little bit on KAP 5 p. 94, but it seems arbitrary to just knock off points. I could see new Passion check with negatives to the roll, but Greg is quick to remind us you don't modify the die roll, you modify the Skill, Trait or Passion. Or maybe you could call for a Passion roll and if they don't make it they suffer a loss instead:

Small lie: lose 1 pt.
Big lie: lose 5 pts
Affair: lose 10 pts
Daughter born (if no heir): lose 2 pts
No child (if no heir): lose 1 pt per year
Odious personal habits: lose 1 pt. per year

A true test of one's love!

I don't know if these are the right numbers, but I just wanted to start a conversation about it. One of my PKs just married a noblewoman that's gonna be a handful...


Thanks,


T.

I'd like to see some more support for the state and fate of a PKs marriage after the lovers solo. It can feel that wives fade too much into the background after the wedding beyond the childbirth roll.

Perhaps a 'marriage events table' as part of the Winter phase could throw up some bumps in the road to a happy marriage?

- Argument with her family
- Rows about money
- Jealousy
- Affairs (romantic, chaste and otherwise)
- Lady Macbeth style ambition

Love it!


T.

All these same lines, I did create these tables when one of my players rolled an "affair" on one of Spoonit's excellent Winter Solo tables. I wanted to know more about the affair, so:


Married? d6

1-10 Yes

11-19 No, husband dead

20 No; divorced. Because of: d20: 1-19 Her cheating; 20: Consanguinity.


If married, why the affair? d20

1-10 Revenge for husband's affairs11-13 Lonely: 1d6: 1-3 Loveless marriage, 4 Husband's crippled, 5 Husband's impotent, 6 Husband's never home

14 Thrill seeker/serial cheater/being the bad girl

15 Infatuation with Glythvyr

16 She wants a divorce

17-18 Sexual issues d6: 1-3 Bored (routine), 4-6 Nympho (not enough)

19 Payback husband for past wrongs: 1. Big Lie, 2. Betrayal of some king other than infidelity

20. Low self esteem


If married, does husband care? d6

1-4 Yes, he doesn't want to be branded a cuckold and disgraced/laughing stock. His Honor is at stake.

5 Yes, he's mad about her and very jealous

6 No, as long as she's discreet


If loveless, why? d20

1-10 There was never any love between them. Arranged marriage.

11-16 The love they once shared has died.

17-19 He's mad about her, but she doesn't love him. Why?: 1-2 She loves another, 3-4 He betrayed her, 5-6 She detests him, 7-8. He's impotent 9-10 Her own self-loathing, 11-12 Incapable of love, 13-14 Boredom, 15-19 Something else 20. She prefers the "company" of women.

20 She's loves him, but he doesn't love her. Why?: 1-2 He loves another woman, 3-4 She betrayed him, 5-6 He detests her, 7-8. She's barren 9-10 Her own self-loathing, 11-12 Incapable of love, 13-14 Battered woman syndrome, 15-19 She's pagan, he's Christian 20. He prefers the "company" of men.


If not married, why? d20

1-19 Husband is dead.

20. Divorce.


If no kids, why? d20 (-1 per year married, without kids)

1-6: She's barren.

7-12: He's impotent

13-19: Bad luck/timing

20: Curse on their marriage


The aforementioned Book of the Estate will have expanded Family Survival Tables that can help you determine cause of death of the husband as well.

All comments are most welcome!


T.

Taliesin everyone except starstruck teenages knows that amours don't last, just roll each year if the amour falls a check by either party it's over. What one is left with is how compatible the couple really is that will be the basis of their love. so just use traits for their charitas towards each other. Something like this each trait at the same level = 1 to their new score, each trait one level different = -1, potentially up to a -6 difference per trait. Some traits will be more destructive to love when not the same and differences should be penalized at twice normal (potentially -12).

Chastity/ lustfulness is certainly is vital in a relationship any difference should be times 2. could one really tolerate a faithless lustful wife like Guinevere, an affair with Mordred, an affair with Lancelot, random seductions such as recorded in Marie de France's Lanval, where the harlot queen accuses Lanval of being a homosexual because he will not sleep with her- I think not unless you were equally as lustful. Famous chastity is just as bad, these people are frigid, having sex only to have children and only without pleasure- there would be no lovemaking with them, only duty and if one ever agreed not to have sex with them, the church ruled that one never had a right to sex even in marriage.

Generosity and greed are also major areas of conflict, the greedy want to abuse their tenants to get as much out of them as possible, while the generous give away everything and any act of generosity became a permanent drain on the income of a manor, as it became a customary right.

Temperance and indulgence also major areas of conflict. those whom want to be winners giving their children better lives will always be in conflict with wastrels whom lay waste their manors with their high living.

If the marriage is 7 or less it's an unhappy one, if 1-4 a very unhappy one and if 0 or less a failed one. A score of 8-12 would be a just acceptable one, 13+ a happy one.

TRAIT LEVELS (assumes virtue score)
20
16-19
13-15
08-12
05-07
01-04
0

TRAITS
01 Chaste/Lustful
02 Energetic/Lazy
03 Forgiving/Vengeful
04 Generous/Selfish
05 Honest/Deceitful
06 Modest/Proud
07 Just/Arbitrary
08 Merciful/Cruel
09 Pious/Worldly
10 Prudent/Reckless
11 Temperate/Indulgent
12 Trusting/Suspicious
13 Valorous/Cowardly

I did create these tables when one of my players rolled an "affair" on one of Spoonit's excellent Winter Solo tables.

Why thank you. 8)

I like the motivations angle its great from a roleplaying perspective and will happily steal some of the stuff.

Feedback would be more along a tip for creating tables. Its easier to use/reuse stuff if you look at adding criteria into a common table.
For instance instead of having a table for married and one for not married you could have a common table.
Example:
Roll 1d20
+10 for engaged or having another love interest etc
+20 for married
then
1-10 can only happen to people without another interest
11-20 can happen to unengaged and engaged
21-30 can happen to engaged and married
31-40 can only happen to married
this means less work, more possible events and retaining the complexity in the tables.

All these same lines, I did create these tables when one of my players rolled an "affair" on one of Spoonit's excellent Winter Solo tables. I wanted to know more about the affair, so:


Married? d6

1-10 Yes

11-19 No, husband dead

20 No; divorced. Because of: d20: 1-19 Her cheating; 20: Consanguinity.

Some minor problems here: societies which value female virginity, regard a widow fornicating as adultery against her dead husband and don't tolerate female fornication in any case. A widow having an affair would need to be driven both by lust and the desire to betray herself, feel guilty and then punish herself (low self-esteem/neurosis; be lustful in general and arbitrary or be a lustful Pagan/heathen. Consanguinity was used for an annulment not a divorce, much later than the 6th century, during Arthur's century divorce by mutual consent was still tolerated by the catholic church. A man who wanted
to be rid of a wife could always accuse her of witchcraft. He would get sympathy and her reputation would be destroyed, but there were always plenty of base villains willing to do such a thing.


If married, why the affair? d20

1-10 Revenge for husband's affairs11-13 Lonely: 1d6: 1-3 Loveless marriage, 4 Husband's crippled, 5 Husband's impotent, 6 Husband's never home

14 Thrill seeker/serial cheater/being the bad girl

15 Infatuation with Glythvyr

16 She wants a divorce

17-18 Sexual issues d6: 1-3 Bored (routine), 4-6 Nympho (not enough)

19 Payback husband for past wrongs: 1. Big Lie, 2. Betrayal of some king other than infidelity

20. Low self esteem

Some of the same problems with these. Women were expected to be forgiving rather than vengeful of their husbands' affairs - the other side of the "double standard". A women having an affair out of vengeance was still dishonoring herself, so they need to be either neurotic or bad girls (arbitrary or vengeful in this case).



If married, does husband care? d6

1-4 Yes, he doesn't want to be branded a cuckold and disgraced/laughing stock. His Honor is at stake.

5 Yes, he's mad about her and very jealous

6 No, as long as she's discreet

You're leaving out two of the big motives of husbands.

Yes, her affair will create a false heir, cheating his family both of honor and the estates going to the false heir.
Yes, her cheating will make suspect all the children she has already given him, making his heir's inheritance contested by other family members.
Yes, he is impotent or thinks he is and is afraid his wife will become pregnant, thus embarrassing him.
No, he "knows" she's barren and her affair(s) will give him an opportunity to divorce his useless and faithless wife.
No, he "knows" he's impotent, but still wants children.
No, He's chaste and does not want to do something as "dirty" as sex, but still wants children.
No, He's chaste, does not want to have sex, but still wants the illusion of a successful marriage.
No, he wants to be rid of his wife so he can become a monk or priest.



If loveless, why? d20

1-10 There was never any love between them. Arranged marriage.

11-16 The love they once shared has died.

17-19 He's mad about her, but she doesn't love him. Why?: 1-2 She loves another, 3-4 He betrayed her, 5-6 She detests him, 7-8. He's impotent 9-10 Her own self-loathing, 11-12 Incapable of love, 13-14 Boredom, 15-19 Something else 20. She prefers the "company" of women.

20 She's loves him, but he doesn't love her. Why?: 1-2 He loves another woman, 3-4 She betrayed him, 5-6 He detests her, 7-8. She's barren 9-10 Her own self-loathing, 11-12 Incapable of love, 13-14 Battered woman syndrome, 15-19 She's pagan, he's Christian 20. He prefers the "company" of men.


If not married, why? d20

1-19 Husband is dead.

20. Divorce.


If no kids, why? d20 (-1 per year married, without kids)

1-6: She's barren.

7-12: He's impotent

13-19: Bad luck/timing

20: Curse on their marriage

You need to have both infertile on that table too. Him a homosexual or her a lesbian might also be reasons ( :-[ only if the affair is with a lady knight)


The aforementioned Book of the Estate will have expanded Family Survival Tables that can help you determine cause of death of the husband as well.

All comments are most welcome!


T.
[/quote]

Thanks, guys, for the feedback. Snaggle, you will see I included gays and lesbian traits — I just was more in the closet about it.


T.

You did a good job Taliesin, others think of things you did not, you think of things they did not = +expected value for the end result. More than one mind usually creates a better result than just one mind working on a problem.

I also forgot one reason for not having children. A wife with RH negative blood married to a husband with RH positive will reject any fetus with RH positive blood. The Brits in general have 15% RH negative blood (could not find the Cymric percentage). i have RH negative blood and come from a family of all RH negative blood so should have remembered this :-[ :-[ :-[. The chance of a wife being RH negative married to a RH positive husband is about 12.75%

You did a good job Taliesin, others think of things you did not, you think of things they did not = +expected value for the end result. More than one mind usually creates a better result than just one mind working on a problem.

Absolutely. Feedback is always welcome. That's why I post it here.

I also forgot one reason for not having children. A wife with RH negative blood married to a husband with RH positive will reject any fetus with RH positive blood. The Brits in general have 15% RH negative blood (could not find the Cymric percentage). i have RH negative blood and come from a family of all RH negative blood so should have remembered this :-[ :-[ :-[. The chance of a wife being RH negative married to a RH positive husband is about 12.75%
[/quote]

Thanks! I would just lump that in with not being able to conceive for whatever reason. I will revisit the tables soonish and incorporate everyone's feedback, as best I can.


T.