LA FAYS
Are people of mixed Human and Faerie blood .
All la Fays have these powers:

1. can see Faeries, Fay creatures, Fay objects and enchanted people and objects even when hidden by enchantment;
2. are resistant to magic;
3. are immune to random attack by Fay creatures;
4. can see the future;
5. major and mortal wounds heal without first aid or chirugery. They emerge into the Fay world when so wounded, heal at the normal rate and reemerge into the world of men if they make a constitution roll (-5 for mortal wounds). If they fail the constitution roll they can never again reemerge from the Fay world, though they still could be seen and talked to to those of Fay blood.
When creating la Fays roll for attributes on d20: with a +3 to results for half Fays; +2 for quarter Fays; +1 for eighth Fays and no adjustment for one sixteenth Fays.

D20 ROLL = SCORE
20 = 18
17-19 = 17
11-16 = 16
1-10 = Resembles human roll 5d3 for attribute, without adjustment for Fay blood, but with adjustment normal human adjustments. Those resembling a Fay on an attribute don't gain any human adjustments, e. g. , those of Cymric blood don't gain the +3 to constitution.

All la Fays age only ½ year for each year after age 18, at age 70 +1 year per point of constitution they fade into the Faery world and can't return to the world of men.

Chance of powers working on d20: half Fays 1-19; quarter Fays 1-15; eighth Fays 1-10 and sixteenth Fays 1-5. The great great grand children + of Faeries gain no benefits from their Fay blood. If two la Fays marry each other roll d20 the child: 1-10 resembles mother + one generation and 11-20 resembles father + one generation.

A woman raped by a Faery suffers -4 honor and -8 honor if pregnant amongst Christians, if the willing lover of a Faery -8 honor and -10 if pregnant. Amongst Pagans honor is added rather than subtracted

La Fays are NPC, optionally with the game master's permission PC can play sixteenth Fays.

Would appreciate feedback, especially do they seem too powerful?

If they are NPCs, it doesn't matter. GM's pleasure.

If the PC sixteenth-part Fae get those high stats, too, then yeah, too powerful.

I'd be especially wary of absolute statements, like:
"4. can see the future"
Precognition is always a major pain for the GM, and it is very rarely that you can pull off an Oracle of Delphi moment. Besides, I don't think this should be a general power to begin with, that all La Fay have.

Not too sure about the Honor losses/gains, either. I can see (religious) Christians maybe stirring up more hulabaloo if a 'demon' raped a woman than a regular man raping a woman. But I think Pagans would take a dim view on any old Faerie raping a woman, too, rather than seeing it a thing to be celebrated. Perhaps not blame the woman so much, though. Depends a lot, of course. I can see a pagan region next to a major Faerie Forest, where the 'Horned One' occasionally catches a woman and rapes her, and this is interpreted as a blessing. But I would see either an annual ritual or a Faerie lover being worth more Honor, although not to the extent of +8 Honor!

We actually do have one half-fae PC in our campaign. As she is a Lady character, I don't mind so much loading her up with various little 'power-ups' to help her catch some spotlight time away from the knights. But we have also kept the powers pretty vague, as she was raised by her human parent and all were unaware of her true parentage (since the mother was married, they simply assumed she was the husband's child) until just recently, when a Fae prince greeted her as a sister. Naturally, hints have been there all along and the players knew.

Some of the powers that she has shown so far:
1) Increased knowledge and sensitivity to things Faerie: represented by a high, 'free' Faerie Lore
2) Ability to see and communicate with 'Wee Folk' (about 6 inch tall 'garden' gnomes that can help her in some small ways; alas, those critters have been rarer to show up now that she is older and married to a Christian)
3) 'Prophetic' dreams: not true precognition, more like a feeling that they ought to be some place at certain time, or that some person they know is in need of help (AKA GM's Hook)
4) Increased status/respect amongst the Fae due to her parentage; this would also be likely to protect her from some minor faerie mischief, but unlikely to protect her from Unseelie monsters who simply would not care

As far as her stats are concerned, she was chargened as a totally normal Cymric Lady character, save for Faerie Lore 10 to start with.

If they are NPCs, it doesn't matter. GM's pleasure.

It matters a lot, Arthur looks like he's part Faery, his half sisters are les Fées ( Morgana, Morgause and ? :-[0 Gawaine is of fay blood, Lancelot got a faery (Elaine) pregnant, so his son Galahad is half Fay, one of the major romances is about a knight courting a faery (Laudine and sir Iwain). There are lots of others in the romances too, e. g. Merlin.


If the PC sixteenth-part Fae get those high stats, too, then yeah, too powerful.

I only gave them those high stats because Greg has the average Faery knight have all attributes set at twenty.


I'd be especially wary of absolute statements, like:
"4. can see the future"
Precognition is always a major pain for the GM, and it is very rarely that you can pull off an Oracle of Delphi moment. Besides, I don't think this should be a general power to begin with, that all La Fay have.

Morgana and Merlin can both see the future because of their Fay blood- so it has to be included.


Not too sure about the Honor losses/gains, either. I can see (religious) Christians maybe stirring up more hulabaloo if a 'demon' raped a woman than a regular man raping a woman. But I think Pagans would take a dim view on any old Faerie raping a woman, too, rather than seeing it a thing to be celebrated. Perhaps not blame the woman so much, though. Depends a lot, of course. I can see a pagan region next to a major Faerie Forest, where the 'Horned One' occasionally catches a woman and rapes her, and this is interpreted as a blessing. But I would see either an annual ritual or a Faerie lover being worth more Honor, although not to the extent of +8 Honor!

Christians would always be worried that this or that Fay was the anti-Christ whom they were expecting. Pagans always honored those of divine birth both the Celts and the Germanic ones, e. g. The Ynglings were essentially always the kings of Denmark, Sweden and Norway They are the children of Freyr/Oberon the god who was king of the Elfs/Faeries and Pagan gods such as Oden and his son Thor liked to go on woman hunts and rape some hapless maiden- they were not the heroes of the comic books ;)


(Edited by Merlin to correct nested quotes)

It matters a lot, Arthur looks like he's part Faery, his half sisters are les Fées ( Morgana, Morgause and ? :-[0 Gawaine is of fay blood, Lancelot got a faery (Elaine) pregnant, so his son Galahad is half Fay, one of the major romances is about a knight courting a faery (Laudine and sir Iwain). There are lots of others in the romances too, e. g. Merlin.

Your interpretation is pretty open there
I don't think that the literature will state them all to be faerie
Not even Morgan is stated to be such in the literature
She is called "the fay" because she has magic powers like a fay
You are welcome to your opinion and the game, of course
I am stating the official KAP line



If the PC sixteenth-part Fae get those high stats, too, then yeah, too powerful.
I only gave them those high stats because Greg has the average Faery knight have all attributes set at twenty.

Gamemaster characters are generally bad examples of a type
See Knights & Ladies for my interpretation of half faeries


I'd be especially wary of absolute statements, like:
"4. can see the future"
Precognition is always a major pain for the GM, and it is very rarely that you can pull off an Oracle of Delphi moment. Besides, I don't think this should be a general power to begin with, that all La Fay have.
Morgana and Merlin can both see the future because of their Fay blood- so it has to be included.
Merlin is always said to be half devil, not faerie
I do not recall Morgan seeing the future in the literature

(Edited by Merlin to correct nested quotes)

Your interpretation is pretty open there
I don't think that the literature will state them all to be faerie
Not even Morgan is stated to be such in the literature
She is called "the fay" because she has magic powers like a fay
You are welcome to your opinion and the game, of course
I am stating the official KAP line

Not really my interpretation, the opinion of several folklorists, summary here (arthuria chapter v)
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/34853 (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/34853)

Morgana's name is "la Fée Morgane" literally "the Faery Morgana". She is also not just part of the King Arthur Romances, she's part of the Carolingian cycles too. She's the lover of Ogier the Dane and schemes with him against Charlemagne just as she did against Arthur, specifically in the chanson de gest "Huon de Bordeaux", so she's alive centuries after the time of Arthur. She's not just someone whom studied magic.


Merlin is always said to be half devil, not faerie
I do not recall Morgan seeing the future in the literature

In Catholicism ghosts and faeries are both really devils. Devils, ghosts and faeries can all see the future in medieval folklore. Of course ghosts are also sometimes seen as souls from purgatory, but that was more the popular Medieval idea than the church's one. Ghosts are not demons in the Greek orthodox faith, but that faith has little currency in Britain. Even when seen as non-demons ghosts and all "creatures" from the world of the dead could see the future in the middle ages- it's only the poor humans whom are blind to it.

Not really my interpretation, the opinion of several folklorists, summary here (arthuria chapter v)
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/34853 (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/34853)

Fascinating book
I read it several decades ago and have kept it

I've got another book in storage that is entirely about how the Arthurian stories really all take place after he is dead, in the land of Faerie
Very entertaining, but not KAP
As I said: everyone is welcome to their own KAP
I am referring only to the standards used in KAP, which do not include this particular perspective

If they are NPCs, it doesn't matter. GM's pleasure.
It matters a lot, Arthur looks like he's part Faery, his half sisters are les Fées ( Morgana, Morgause and ? :-[0 Gawaine is of fay blood, Lancelot got a faery (Elaine) pregnant, so his son Galahad is half Fay, one of the major romances is about a knight courting a faery (Laudine and sir Iwain). There are lots of others in the romances too, e. g. Merlin.


First of all, your GMing style and Pendragon may vary. No harm in that.

Secondly, I don't agree with Arthur being a part Faerie, nor would I give such a background to all magic users in the sagas. You seem intent to stamp everyone in the same mould. Pagan Gods are Faerie, Christian Holy King (like the Fisher King) are Faerie, and magic users are Faerie. I find that rather limiting, to be honest.

Thirdly, I said that the actual system doesn't matter, as the NPCs have the talents and skills and statistics that the plot demands. If I need a knight who is a formidable adversary to the PCs, I am not going to just give him random skills. If I need a prophet to give cryptic advice, then that is the NPC's power. But that is simply my GMing style. Yours might vary.



I only gave them those high stats because Greg has the average Faery knight have all attributes set at twenty.

Morgana and Merlin can both see the future because of their Fay blood- so it has to be included.


Problem. Just because an NPC 'monster' has high stats, it doesn't mean that a specific PC should have high stats too. Not to mention that the Faerie Knight is 100% Faerie, not one sixteenth.

As for precognition, you are taking two of the most prominent magic users in the stories and using them as your baseline. Even ignoring the fact that Morgana might not have any Faerie blood in her, this to my mind is a fallacy. Einstein was a genius. Einstein was human. Therefore, all humans are geniuses. If you give that power to all Faerie, then it means that even the most humble goblin can foretell the future. And this feels very wrong to me.



Christians would always be worried that this or that Fay was the anti-Christ whom they were expecting. Pagans always honored those of divine birth both the Celts and the Germanic ones, e. g. The Ynglings were essentially always the kings of Denmark, Sweden and Norway They are the children of Freyr/Oberon the god who was king of the Elfs/Faeries and Pagan gods such as Oden and his son Thor liked to go on woman hunts and rape some hapless maiden- they were not the heroes of the comic books ;)


Like I said, there is a difference between a god worshipped by the tribe doing it, and a dwarf or a svart alf doing it. Mother of a recognized demigod would of course be good for brownie points, but I think the Honor bonus is too high. I would rather give a high one time Glory reward, and a more modest Honor bonus. Honor is a passion, after all, and something like +10 is an insane bonus. Mind you, I think -10 for premarital sex for the woman (as per Greg's website) is a really harsh punishment as well, enough to basically 'kill' a Lady character. But to each his/her own.

Problem. Just because an NPC 'monster' has high stats, it doesn't mean that a specific PC should have high stats too. Not to mention that the Faerie Knight is 100% Faerie, not one sixteenth.

As for precognition, you are taking two of the most prominent magic users in the stories and using them as your baseline. Even ignoring the fact that Morgana might not have any Faerie blood in her, this to my mind is a fallacy. Einstein was a genius. Einstein was human. Therefore, all humans are geniuses. If you give that power to all Faerie, then it means that even the most humble goblin can foretell the future. And this feels very wrong to me.

The stats are really not all that high, there's only a 50% chance of getting the la Fay blood for any stat: the first generation la Fay would have an average Fay stat of 18.75 and an overall average stat of 14.375. A fourth generation (1/16) would have an average Fay stat of only 15.75 and an average stat of only 12.875 and the GM and PC have no control over which stats are fay - a knight might get only the almost useless appearance and dexterity as his Fay attributes vs the standard 60 points 5 each for APP and DEX, with 50 points left for SIZ, STR and Con = an average of 16.666667 for each of those three.


Like I said, there is a difference between a god worshipped by the tribe doing it, and a dwarf or a svart alf doing it. Mother of a recognized demigod would of course be good for brownie points, but I think the Honor bonus is too high. I would rather give a high one time Glory reward, and a more modest Honor bonus. Honor is a passion, after all, and something like +10 is an insane bonus. Mind you, I think -10 for premarital sex for the woman (as per Greg's website) is a really harsh punishment as well, enough to basically 'kill' a Lady character. But to each his/her own.

A woman who lost her virginity even to rape was dishonored in the 6th century and if to fornication or adultery completely so, even fornicating widows were dishonored and might be dispossessed of their morning gift/dower because of it. Being killed also was very normal for an adulterous wife, whether by cuckold or by execution.

One of the best ideas of the KAP system is that magic is in the hands of the GM. No stats and no rules. And if you read the stories I find that the magic is usually vague and unclear. the same should be with fay. If you let a player want to play a character with fay blood. Good, but keep the 'fayness' in your own hand, like Morien does with his group. the effects of being part fay is then more a plot device and can at times freak out the players.

So my comment on your abilities:
1) Seeing fay: Since the PK is probably raised as a human, has had no prior dealings with fay it may be that they do not always believe what they have seen. also remember that a lot of the fay are tricksters. so can they see fay: sometimes.
2) Magic resistance: I would not make this all encompassing. They may be less inclined to fall for it, but a good illusion is still something they may fall for. I would give them a bonus to the trait, stat or passion, probably a +5. And if they meet Oberon they I want him to be able to use his magic.
3) Immunity to random attacks: I am not sure what you mean by this, but as above they may be more resistant. For instance they may be able to use their shield when surprised by a fay attack or have some other bonus against them. But immunity is on the very extreme.
4) Can see the future. I would not do that. It may be that some powerful fay can do that (some of the time), but I would not give this power to a PK. It is really a pain to a GM and usually destroys a good story. So it is more from a storytelling point of view that I would not do this. Of course from time to time I could plague a fay character with odd dreams, but would not make it regular and clear view of the future. (For Merlin there are stories that he lives backwards (probably because of his demonhood) and thus he does not see into the future, but remembers it).
5) Healing. You could give them the pagan religious trait (+2 healing), but especially if they are not full fay I would not give them the power you describe. You could rule that if they receive one successful chirurgery they are considered healed instead of when they are at half hitpoints. Of course if you wish you can make it a plot device (again) that they end up on the Other Side and need to find a way back to the real world.
6) Statistics: Not all stats need to be high. Even Oberon is sometimes described as an ugly dwarf. So what you could do is have the stats modified. Instead of (or in addition to) the cultural effects (like the +3CON for cymric) you could give them a change in stats. If it is a player you could make it like that they may choose their +3 Bonus and you give them a -3 penalty on another stat.
7) GM characters and PK: to be honest I usually do not use much of the random rules if it is an important NPC, that I use for a story. If he needs a size 22, he gets it, even if it is a Pict (of course this could be due to giant's blood). So I do not worry too much about the rules when it comes to NPC's. As for PK with fay blood I like to keep it vague.

<SNIP>...Fay attributes vs the standard 60 points 5 each for APP and DEX, with 50 points left for SIZ, STR and Con = an average of 16.666667 for each of those three.


Is this really the standard for starting characters in your campaign? App/dex of 5 and 16/17 in everything else?

if so, this explains a great deal.

My essential problem with this is that it seems to assume that hybrids inherit only traits useful traits
and that the fay are good for humans
and that the fay have superhuman powers with no weaknesses
None of which are true

I have expressed my opinion of hybrids in Knights & Ladies, so need not repeat them here
But if one of my players came to me with this list of superpowers I would agree, but only with the matching powers I list below
because these express my understanding and experience with creatures of the Other Side



All la Fays have these powers:
1. can see Faeries, Fay creatures, Fay objects and enchanted people and objects even when hidden by enchantment;

...but have Awareness capped at 10 for things in the mundane world


2. are resistant to magic;

...but take double damage from all iron weapons


3. are immune to random attack by Fay creatures;

...and obedient to all faerie nobility

4. can see the future;

Simple no. This is a GM nightmare and a misunderstanding of prophecy. At best a prophet can determine magical trends (Mercury in retrograde! Mars ascendant!) and use superior knowledge of the individuals involved to predict most likely scenarios


5. major and mortal wounds heal without first aid or chirugery.

...except those caused by iron, which heal at half the normal rate


They emerge into the Fay world when so wounded, heal at the normal rate and reemerge into the world of men

...in a randomly determined length of time equal to 1d6 on:
1. An hour
2. a day and night
3. a week
4. a month
5. a year
6. a century

I know this seems harsh, but the fact is that gaming is extremely naive in thinking that the Seelie Court are "good faries" and the Unseelie Court are bad faeries
and that hybrids get the best of both worlds

A very interesting discussion, gentlemen, thank you. I can't see imposing a standard template on the Fae. I think they should be snow flakes or fingerprints — no two are alike.

I have a half-fae squire in my campaign. He's used mostly as a story hook. He has "superpowers" with a few drawbacks, thus:

Griffrion a Griffri


Description: 3 Distintive features: Lustrous, raven-black wavy hair, worn to shoulders; impossibly bright blue eyes, slight frame.

Long lived: Griffrion ages at half the rate of mortals, and will live twice as long (140-150 years), unless he’s killed by violent means. His lack of aging won't be evident for ten years or game time, however — and then only by people who knew him ten years prior.

Hardy: Griffrion's high CON means he's less susceptible to sickness and disease, though not totally immune to them.

Light Sleeper: Elvenfolk need not sleep, and Griffrion can do with less than most most mortals. He only needs four hours of sleep per night and can function quite well on only two. Fatigue penalties are halved.

Allergic to Church Bells: Griffrion cannot stand the sound of church bells. He can tolerate them in small doses, or from afar, although he may look uncomfortable, like someone that's drank some bad milk. He may cover his ears with sustained ringing. If made to endure lots of ringing, he has to roll CON or throw up.

Stranger in a Strange Land: Griffrion’s idea of Courtesy is different from that of the men of Logres. As such he’s at -5 for all Courtesy rolls in mortal courts.

Heightened Senses: Griffrion can see, hear, smell and taste things that mortal men cannot. He is also highly tactile and can feel things, slight vibrations, slight variations in temperature, a slight breeze, etc, that escapes the notice of normal men. Things he might smell: a game leg, a rotten tooth, when someone's soiled themselves, when someone's needs a bath. He doesn't like towns, cities or castles, because of the smell.

Smells Corruption (Death): Coming from a land where no corruption exists, Griffrion can smell death and decay a mile away. In game terms, this means he will smell a recent battlefield before outriders will find it (assuming he's downwind). He can find a dead body by smell better than a bloodhound. He can smell tainted meat, and warn people not to eat it.

Night-eyed: Griffrion can see twice as well in low light conditions. Halve the normal penalties.

Farsighted: Griffrion can see half again as far as normal men, allowing him to identify far off banners long before other could do so. Of course he doesn't know the heraldry of Logres, so he can only relate what he sees. ("A silver fish on a black field").

Living with Griffrion: Griffrion is impertinent at times but this is because of his upbringing in the Summor Court where people are judged on their own abilities not a superficial social order. He speaks his mind and can be rather blunt. To other men it seems rude, to Griffrion it's being honest.

Griffrion does not recognize Jesus Christ as the son of God, and is borderline hostile, especially after being tormented by Christian priests during the Treason Trial of 492, when he was accused of being in league with Merlin. He gets on better with pagans. He will constantly harp on the hypocrisies of the Church, particularly around the plight of the poor and killing in war—not that he has a problem with killing in war, but he doesn't like Christians who talk about turning the other cheek even while they make war with heathens. He will speak out about such things and even argue with priests. Griffrion does not pray, or cross himself, genuflect, etc. He will not step into a church. This will lead some to conclude that he's evil.

Griffrion is also lazy when it comes to mundane stuff — the usual squire duties, like cleaning armor, etc. He will try to get other servants to do it for him, or he will not do it at all, or procrastinate.

Griffrion is energetic in other ways. He's always the first to rise, and the last to go to bed. In fact, few people ever see him sleep! When staying at the manor, he like to go for long rides in the morning, often leaving before the sun is up. He does not ask anyone's permission.

Griffion does not often get in a hurry to do anything, and does not understand urgency, or being on time.

Griffrion misses few opportunities to belittle "lesser men". "You can't see/smell/hear that? The eyes/nose/tongue/ears of you mortals is weak/feeble,"

Griffrion is seldom impressed by a maid's beauty. She needs to have have APP 20 minimum before he'll acknowledge her looks. If Elf-land our maids are so beauteous that they make your women look like cows. He will refer to someone as "horse-faced" or "ugly". "For mortal men, to catch a glimpse of an elven-maid is to lose his heart forever, as my father learned when he met my mother, whose beauty can only be compared to a rose shimmering with morning dew.

Griffrion is competitive and always wanting to test himself against men. Footraces are a favorite, as are any DEX-based skill. But he demurs when it comes to contests of STR.

Griffrion is bored easily, and look for ways to overcome boredom. Often going off and exploring things on his own—when he shouldn't. Opportunities for Intrigues and Hospitality breaches abound!

Son number: 1

Married: No

Squire: None


Age: 15


SIZ 8, DEX 17, STR 14, CON 18, APP 18, Move 3
Armor Faerie Armor 12 + shield, Unconscious 6, Major Wound 16, Knockdown 7
Hit Points 23, Healing Rate 3, Damage 3

Combat Skills: Dagger 5, Spear Expertise 15, Sword 15, Battle 11, Horsemanship 11, Siege 2

Skills
Awareness 16, Boating 1, Compose 1, Courtesy 10, Dancing 12, Faerie Lore 15, Falconry 10, First Aid 11, Flirting 10, Folklore 0, Gaming 3, Heraldry 0, Hunting 6, Intrigue 3, Orate 5, Play (Harp) 10, Read (Latin) 0, Recognize 3, Religion (Any) 0, Romance 0, Singing 15, Stewardship 0, Swimming 14, Tourney 0


Traits
7 Chaste/Lustful 13 this will grow as he gets older!
15 Energetic/Lazy 5
10 Forgiving/Vengeful 10
10 Generous/Selfish 10
10 Honest/Deceitful 10
10 Just/Arbitrary 10
10 Merciful/Cruel 10
3 Modest/Proud 17
15 Otherworldy/Worldy 5
6 Prudent/Reckless 14
10 Temperate/Indulgent 10
10 Trusting/Suspicious 10
15 Valorous/Cowardly 5

Trusting of Faeries (10)

Directed Trait: Hates Mundane Chores: +5 to Laziness roll.

Passions: Loyalty (Summer Court) 15, Love (Family) 15, Hospitality 15, Honor 15, Hate (Goblins) 11,

Family Trait: Knows Faerie Ways (+5 Faerie Lore, adjusted above)

Luck: Sword of Goblin-slaying (+5 skill and +1d6 damage)

Blazon: Sable, in saltire two keys or

Very nice posts Taliesin and Greg.


Simple no. This is a GM nightmare and a misunderstanding of prophecy. At best a prophet can determine magical trends (Mercury in retrograde! Mars ascendant!) and use superior knowledge of the individuals involved to predict most likely scenarios

Greg I think you're wrong on both these points.
It's only a GM nightmare if they handle it poorly. Letting this work during play as an active power would be a nightmare. The future should be seen only in dreams and just because a character sees the future does not mean he sees the complete future or can change change it (ask the Wotanic gods if they can change what happens at Valhalla just because they know what will happen). Also someone having a prophetic dream does not know they're not just having a normal dream - this allows the GM to mislead and tease a PC or NPC, so that even though they've seen the future they don't know they've seen it.

The second point is against is against Catholic theology. God foresaw the fate of every being before he created the world,even though having free will every being is will choose what God foresaw. Otherworldly being whether angels, devils, ghosts or faeries not being part of the world can see the past, present and future.

It also against the real experience of lucid dreamers whom have had prophetic dreams. One sees the future in great and clear detail, but can't tell it's anything but another dream.

YPWV



Very nice posts Taliesin and Greg.


Simple no. This is a GM nightmare and a misunderstanding of prophecy. At best a prophet can determine magical trends (Mercury in retrograde! Mars ascendant!) and use superior knowledge of the individuals involved to predict most likely scenarios

Greg I think you're wrong on both these points.
It's only a GM nightmare if they handle it poorly. Letting this work during play as an active power would be a nightmare. The future should be seen only in dreams and just because a character sees the future does not mean he sees the complete future or can change change it (ask the Wotanic gods if they can change what happens at Valhalla just because they know what will happen). Also someone having a prophetic dream does not know they're not just having a normal dream - this allows the GM to mislead and tease a PC or NPC, so that even though they've seen the future they don't know they've seen it.

The second point is against is against Catholic theology. God foresaw the fate of every being before he created the world,even though having free will every being is will choose what God foresaw. Otherworldly being whether angels, devils, ghosts or faeries not being part of the world can see the past, present and future.

It also against the real experience of lucid dreamers whom have had prophetic dreams. One sees the future in great and clear detail, but can't tell it's anything but another dream.

Good raspberry Greg, you're right I need to be more respectful, unfortunately I'm the Rhett Butler type not the Ashley Wilkes kind. I'll try to be more respectful, but that's like a pig trying to fly :-[

The second point is against is against Catholic theology. God foresaw the fate of every being before he created the world,even though having free will every being is will choose what God foresaw. Otherworldly being whether angels, devils, ghosts or faeries not being part of the world can see the past, present and future.

It also against the real experience of lucid dreamers whom have had prophetic dreams. One sees the future in great and clear detail, but can't tell it's anything but another dream.


i'm going to have to disagree with you there. as in previous post, i'm not one to question how people interpret faith but, one of ter ways to determine if a spirit is a demon or from god in Charismatic tradition (catholic and otherwise) is it claims about the future. an Angel will never claim to know it ( it is God's domain) while a demon being a creature with out form can "see" more of the Past and Present can guess at the most likely future but does Know. the may vlaim to know but are doing so to mislead or to be "like" the Most High

Sir Cripple, I could not find any official source online that confirms either my statement or yours, therefore I yield, as I made a definite statement. Do you have any source online and Catholic confirming your point?

"interview with a exorcist" by Fr. Jose Antonio Fortea Q.11 his source is the catechism of the catholic church and scripture. he doesn't offer a direct citation for that specific one so, not a great source for secular proof. but i can back it up with Charisma based teachings from across multiple christian sects if it's of interest to you. i had a Professor who wrote on the topic of demonic similarities across tradition. i helped him out as a lowly intern (i was interested in Ritual magic at the time. it seemed fun..it was not) still charismatic events are a fascination of mine. i'd be happy to hunt for scripture if your interested for a more definite answer. the book gifts of the spirit by Derek Prince discusses prophecy in detail. as well, i think though that the discussion turns to how the Old Gods work in your Pendragon though as their relationship to the world and the YHWH/Christ render all such theo-metaphysical sources moot. i'm interested in helping if you would like to pursue that topic

Yes, am interested and happy to be corrected. I don't think one can find scriptural proof one way or the other. Ritual magic seemed fun in Benvenuto Cellini's account of it in his autobiography. What system of magic were you using (not that I think any system is more than Goyim LARP)?

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html
JosephCard. Ratzinger
Prefect of the Congregation
for the Doctrine of the Faith

Because God is one, history, which he shares with humanity, is also one. It is valid for all time, and it has reached its fulfilment in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In Christ, God has said everything, that is, he has revealed himself completely, and therefore Revelation came to an end with the fulfilment of the mystery of Christ as enunciated in the New Testament. To explain the finality and completeness of Revelation, the Catechism of the Catholic Church quotes a text of Saint John of the Cross: “In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word—and he has no more to say... because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behaviour but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty” (No. 65; Saint John of the Cross,The Ascent of Mount Carmel, II, 22).


The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in this regard: “...even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made fully explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries” (No. 66). The way in which the Church is bound to both the uniqueness of the event and progress in understanding it is very well illustrated in the farewell discourse of the Lord when, taking leave of his disciples, he says: “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority... He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you” (Jn 16:12-14). On the one hand, the Spirit acts as a guide who discloses a knowledge previously unreachable because the premise was missing—this is the boundless breadth and depth of Christian faith. On the other hand, to be guided by the Spirit is also “to draw from” the riches of Jesus Christ himself, the inexhaustible depths of which appear in the way the Spirit leads. In this regard, the Catechism cites profound words of Pope Gregory the Great: “The sacred Scriptures grow with the one who reads them” (No. 94; Gregory the Great,Homilia in Ezechielem I, 7, 8). The Second Vatican Council notes three essential ways in which the Spirit guides in the Church, and therefore three ways in which “the word grows”: through the meditation and study of the faithful, through the deep understanding which comes from spiritual experience, and through the preaching of “those who, in the succession of the episcopate, have received the sure charism of truth” (Dei Verbum, 8).


The oldest letter of Saint Paul which has been preserved, perhaps the oldest of the New Testament texts, the First Letter to the Thessalonians, seems to me to point the way. The Apostle says: “Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophesying, but test everything, holding fast to what is good” (5:19-21). In every age the Church has received the charism of prophecy, which must be scrutinized but not scorned. On this point, it should be kept in mind that prophecy in the biblical sense does not mean to predict the future but to explain the will of God for the present, and therefore show the right path to take for the future.

In this way, the importance of human freedom is underlined: the future is not in fact unchangeably set, and the image which the children saw is in no way a film preview of a future in which nothing can be changed. Indeed, the whole point of the vision is to bring freedom onto the scene and to steer freedom in a positive direction. The purpose of the vision is not to show a film of an irrevocably fixed future. Its meaning is exactly the opposite: it is meant to mobilize the forces of change in the right direction. Therefore we must totally discount fatalistic explanations of the “secret”, such as, for example, the claim that the would-be assassin of 13 May 1981 was merely an instrument of the divine plan guided by Providence and could not therefore have acted freely, or other similar ideas in circulation. Rather, the vision speaks of dangers and how we might be saved from them.

So its more like Terminator 2. ;D