KAP has two of the three types of knights in the literature (the Pious Knight and the Chivalrous Knight), but has ignored the third type the Heroic Knight.

THE HEROIC KNIGHT

Qualities needed: Just; Generous; Honest; Vengeful and Proud, additionally a knight must have a Valorous of 16+.

Points needed: 80.

Glory: +100 per year.

Exemblar knight: Sir Gawaine/Gauvain.

Benefits: a knight's unconscious is raised by 5 points; additionally when defending or avenging (his lord, his lord's lady or children, his own lady or children, his faith, a fallen comrade and friend, the weak and innocent or facing a hated foe) he's immune to conscious and fights to the death.

The poll is up for 30 days and you're allowed to change your vote.

Woefully in need of balance.

*thumbs down*

bigsteveuk posted this once upon a time, for a Play-by-email:



Also Chivalry is out and True Knight is in

Traits: Need 80 points from Vengeful, Generous, Proud, Reckless, Trusting and Valorous. Since a strong knight makes his own rules, you can replace the lowest of these traits with your Arbitrary score.
Benefit: +1/5th Hit Points (round nearest)
Glory: 50 glory per year.


Not really sold on Trusting. I'd probably switch it to Indulgent. Live hard, party hard, leave a badly mangled corpse!

Woefully in need of balance.

*thumbs down*


This.

In general from previous campaigns, 'heroic knights' had the benefit of earning an enormous quantity of glory from their never-ending and increasingly dangerous adventures.

They don't need much else.

I prefer the Pugnacious Knight in this http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1925.0 thread as to a 'third option'

KAP has two of the three types of knights in the literature (the Pious Knight and the Chivalrous Knight), but has ignored the third type the Heroic Knight.

THE HEROIC KNIGHT

Qualities needed: Just; Generous; Honest; Vengeful and Proud, additionally a knight must have a Valorous of 16+.

Points needed: 80.

Glory: +100 per year.

Exemblar knight: Sir Gawaine/Gauvain.

Benefits: a knight's unconscious is raised five points when defending or avenging : his lord; his lord's lady or children; his own lady or children; his faith; a fallen comrade and friend; the weak and innocent or when facing a hated foe. Should he choose not to defend in any of these situations his Valor drops one point and he loses for one year any rolls for the improvement of skills, traits or passions being wracked by guilt. This should solve the balance complaint.

Initially proposed Benefits: a knight's unconscious is raised by 5 points; additionally when defending or avenging (his lord, his lord's lady or children, his own lady or children, his faith, a fallen comrade and friend, the weak and innocent or facing a hated foe) he's immune to conscious and fights to the death.

The poll is up for 30 days and you're allowed to change your vote.


I was not going to vote, but I think the revised Heroic Knight is balanced in KAP terms, so am voting.

I prefer the Pugnacious Knight in this http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1925.0 thread as to a 'third option'


The problems with the pugnacious knight is that it's not a noble knight nor is it a type already in the Arthurian romances. If we were creating a Saxon raider or a poor Knight or lord/king conqueror we need traits like these: Valiant; Indulgent; Cruel; Arbitrary; Proud.

Valiant because knights would not honor cowards. Indulgent because he was expected to be high living: and generous to his household and vassals; to like carousing, gambling and wenching with his comrades and men. Cruel because they were expected to put winning first and loved war; Arbitrary because they wanted to grind the common people into dust to pay for their high living and tournaments and take everything from them except a bare subsistence and to be tolerant of rapes and robberies. Proud because they were expected to have unlimited ambition and unlimited hunger for glory and to justify their actions by haughty contempt for their victims.

I don't know that Conan the barbarian, Bertran de Born or NWO thug soldiers or cops are creatures that should get a KAP glory bonus.

The problems with the pugnacious knight is that it's not a noble knight nor is it a type already in the Arthurian romances. If we were creating a Saxon raider or a poor Knight or lord/king conqueror we need traits like these: Valiant; Indulgent; Cruel; Arbitrary; Proud.


I agree that a knight like that would not get a Glory bonus in Arthurian times. However, the Pugnacious/True Knight might be worthy of a Glory Bonus in Uther's times, before the Chivalrous Knight becomes the ideal. Once Arthur starts pushing for a Chivalric Knight, that becomes the yardstick of excellence by which the knights are measured, and hence the Glory Bonus for it.

I don't think there is need for a Heroic Knight. He is simply a subtype of a Chivalric Knight, likely a pagan Chivalric Knight, which is currently still possible: You need high Energetic, Generous and Just to offset the Proud, but it can be done. Balance-wise, Heroic Knight has many traits in common with a Pagan Knight: Generous, Honest and Proud. And pretty much all the PKs I have seen have Valorous 15+, raising it to 16 ASAP. Almost all of the PKs in our campaign choose Just as their Famous Trait, since it is just so useful in the Justice Events and helps then qualify for Chivalric. I am assuming Valorous counts as well, to make it have 6 traits like Chivalric Knight? In which case, a starting Pagan Knight could have: 16+13+13+10+13+15 = 80 to start with.

Chivalric Knight can have a high Vengeful (like the Orkneys do). And like said in above, you can even have a High Proud, as long as you have other Chivalric Traits to pick up the slack, which Gawaine certainly does. As for the boni for defending your Lord, Family, comrade or attacking a hated foe, we already have Passions for that: Loyalty(Lord), Love(Family), Loyalty(Group) and Hate(this particular enemy or group). Thus, to reiterate, I see no need for this knight type. Not that it should stop you from using it if you like in your campaigns.

I agree with the above, I'm only using the pugnacious knight bonus as I'm starting my campaign about 70 odd years before the campaign normally does.
It'll be grim-dark for a while and while one of my players is chivalric and others are on their way, they're viewed as idealistic freaks whose personalities are unsuited to the harsh necessities of war.

The Bertran de Born type was pretty typical of poor knights and is actually historical, likely the typical follower of Uther ( his name means "terrible") and Mordred, Arthur too would have a lot of them with his yearly tourneys and constant wars. From the horses mouth http://usna.edu/Users/history/abels/hh315/Bertrand_de_Born.htm

The Heroic Knight is needed because:

1. it's a type of knight really in the Arthurian romances and the main knight type of the chanson de geste that were contemporary with the Arthurian romances;

2. there are already too many religious knights in KAP and Pagans are not the followers of Arthur in the romances.

3. The Chivalrous Knight is really the courtly knight and amorous knight of the romances - this type of knight needs to be balanced by the knight of the crusades and of war to whom war was not a tourney and sport.

4. King Arthur in the romances is an Heroic knight not a Chivalrous Knight, his conflict with the perfect Chivalrous Knight Lancelot is part of the conflict built into the conflict between Chivalrous and Heroic knights.

Arthur is both willing to behead the Green knight over an issue of pride and when Gawain takes his place, he councils him "to strike such a blow that there can be no return blow" - the advice of a vengeful knight. It's hard to think he's a religious knight either, as a Christian he's associating with pagan enchantresses and Merlin, both half demon and an enchanter. He holds tourneys against the teaching of the church (whom denied last rites or Christian burial to anyone mortally wounded or dying in a tourney). At best King Arthur is of mixed worldliness and piety, so would clearly not be a religious knight.

The Chivalrous Knight's: Energy; Modesty; Justice; Mercy and Valor.

Contrasted with the Heroic Knight's: Just; Generous; Honest; Vengeful and Proud with a Valor of 16 requires 16 more points than the Chivalrous Knight, so is much harder to qualify for. It also offers the chance for better generational and character conflict than exists now in the game.

The Chivalrous Knight's: Energy; Modesty; Justice; Mercy and Valor.

Contrasted with the Heroic Knight's: Just; Generous; Honest; Vengeful and Proud with a Valor of 16 requires 16 more points than the Chivalrous Knight, so is much harder to qualify for. It also offers the chance for better generational and character conflict than exists now in the game.


You neglected Generous from the Chivalrous Knight list, so they are equally hard, except for a Pagan Knight it is much easier to be Heroic than Chivalric. Much much easier, as the overlap is three traits directly, and Just and Valorous are generally the two preferred Traits in PKs due to their utility. Which basically just leaves Vengeful, but even that you don't actually need that high since you qualify already with a 10 or 11.

Again, I fail to see why the Heroic Knight is needed in the game. Granted, if I were to GM a more historical type of campaign, where I want my knights to be brash and very sensitive about insults, I would toss Chivalric and have something like that Heroic instead. But not if I am playing King Arthur and his knights of the Round Table.

Well actually, in a more historical campaign I'd do away with all of the 'special status' knights anyway. You get glory for high traits, forget about any religious bonus. It won't stop arrows.

Also, from a mechanical stand point, raising the unconsciousness threshold is bad, your heroic knight would collapse from injury more quickly, you want to lower it instead.

Allowing them to continue to fight on regardless (your example list covers pretty much every possible circumstance a knight might find himself in ever) isn't that much of an advantage.
Your heroic knights will get themselves killed in situations when other 'non-heroic' knights would merely be knocked unconscious.

As a player looking at it purely from a mechanical point of view, it isn't a bonus I would want to acquire.

KAP has two of the three types of knights in the literature (the Pious Knight and the Chivalrous Knight), but has ignored the third type the Heroic Knight.

Thats were your wrong it has several types of knights I found you can make the following knights in KAP, Their is the two you mentioned but also can make a temple knight that guards holy sites, churches, and priests; The Courtier/Romantic/Bard; The Fighter; The Hunter, The Average Joe schmo; and the Lustful Knight;

As others mentioned. I do not think this type is needed. As a matter of fact I think all knights should be heroic. that is why you are there. To gain glory through heroic acts.

As for the chivalrous and pious knights. I am not too fond of them. For me it is too easy to gain glory. More and more I am of the school that states that glory is only earned through play and action. Not just for being there. So I am reducing the bonus from the religious and chivalrous knights.
A player who wants to play a chivalrous knight is fine by me, but I will pester him with quest that will challenge his convictions. If the PK comes through them he will gain glory from that, not just from the fact that he has high stats on his character sheet.

This has come up before, even on this forum
I have considered this, and still am considering it
However,
I have always hesitated because this defines the deeds of a loyal knight
not a special one

OK I am going to say it this way in my opinion and I ask my groups opinion too and I think that most will agree with me THE HEROIC KNIGHT as an archetype is a bad idea for player characters if allowed in game should be reserved for an historical knight ie NPC that is listed in the back of the book with the other pc knights found their. The Heroic Knight in the back of the book is reserved as a gpc only for a possible gpc list of knights the characters might Meet at tournament and try to inpsire to become more like them. However, I Do not think it is a good idea for player characters to automatically be allowed to play an heroic knight because of the following reasons are just this simple the mantle of a heroic Knight should be earned.

A heroic Knight Should be all of the following

1) Live by Honor and For Glory by serving his liege lord or knightly order by obeying all the laws and customs.

2) Keep his word and always speak the truth.

3) Be generous to the widows and orphans and the poor.

4) Be Hospitable to strangers, be merciful to prisoners and captives.

5) Protect the week and the defenseless to the death if need be.

6) Defend the faith of Ones God and the Priests or Presstesses of his God.

7) Possess an Amor Love for an unmarried woman as your Amor or love fo her and her alone.

Ok this is what all knights should strive to become

The Virtues of Love are Forgiving, Generous, Honest, Just, Merciful, and Trusting a knight must posses a minimum of 65 points in loves six virtues if he does he may attempt the wooing of a lady while doing so he may say he is fighting for the love his lady, his liege lord or his children. While doing so he gets a +2 to his sword skill if he maintains a total of 80 he is considerd loves champion and gains an additional 2D6 to his damage. This came out of CHA2711, Blood & Lust pg 19 countrified with in the text ie explaining how it worked giving examples to pg 22, and came with the adventure of the Heart Blade all mixed together.

Also out of the book of Knights depending on religion got the following benefits for keeping an average of 16 to all religious stats and in my campagin house rule you must mantian all that are underlined to get the bonus so everyone must have a 16 or more in each trait of their religion to get the bonus. These religious Virtures and bonuses are out of the GK2724, Book of Knights (2000) pg 13 and yes i Use them in my campaign as these are the bonuses I use.

For Christian: Virtue: Chaste, Forgiving, Merciful, Modest, Temperate; Bonus: +6 to Total hit points

For Pagan: Virtue: Lustful, Energetic, Generous, Honest, Proud; Bonus: +2 to Healing rate

For Wotanic: Virtue: Generous, Proud, Worldly, Indulgent, Reckless; Bonus: +1d6 to damage

Heathen: Virtue: Arbitrary, Honest, Vengeful, Proud, Worldly; Bonus:+1 to Movement Rate +1 to Healing rate

Jewish: Virtue:Chaste, Energetic, Just, Produnt, Temperate; Bonus:+3 to to Total hit points, +1 to Healing rate

And the Chivalry Virtue: Energetic, Generous, Just, Merciful, Modest, Bonus: and if these combined traits =65 they get a minimum of +1 to Chivalric Armour, but if they have 80 they get a +3 instead.

So in closing if we do insist on a heroic knight on having a bonus i say do it like this

Heroic Knight: Virtue: Just; Generous; Honest; Vengeful, Proud; Bonus: and if these combined traits =65 they get a minimum of +2 to thier sword skill, but if they have 80 they get an extra 2d6 in damage,.

And yes in the books I have you got Glory: +100 per year. except you got extra for the wooing of the lady and depended on what you did for her and over the course of the romance the longer it went with out consumption or marriage the bigger the glory bonus was awesome book for love is the blood and lust book.

That's my opinion on how we should handle a heroic knight if it gets added to the game.

As far as voting I think we should leave the final say to Greg Stafford and his team of experts in my opinion they always have and will have final say over KAP Rules.

Ok so sense no one posted here yet I am going to add this teed bit of info we play tested out the heroic knight today as i sugested earlier in this post and found he would be A little more different then what we first thought Heroic Knight: Virtue: Arbitrary, Selfish; Vengeful, Proud, Reckless, Bonus: and if these combined traits =65 they get a minimum of +2 to thier sword skill, but if they have 80 they get an extra 2d6 in damage, Like this he works just fine, after some fine tuning.