LEGAL PROCEDURE

Step one: a Coroner investigates the deed and declares a crime has been committed to the Sheriff.
Step two: the Sheriff issues a writ ordering the suspect to appear in court.
Step three: the suspect appears in court and makes a plea. If they fail to appear the they're hunted down and arrested by the Sheriff and his men.
Step four: one is held prisoner until one's trial.
Step five: the trial; nobles losing the trial may demand trial by combat or ordeal.
Step six: those convicted in a trial and not demanding trial by combat may either make an appeal to Camelot claiming an error in procedure or may plea to Camelot for a pardon.
Step seven: one is held until the sentence is executed and all the noble's manors, goods and chattels are seized by a sub-escheator.

If the misdeed was done in a Royal forest substitute a Forester for a sheriff.

GAME PROCEDURE

The villain commits the misdeed.
They roll their Prudence.

Critical success – another is blamed for the dishonorable act (the villain must make an intrigue roll too and name the patsy (otherwise treat as success). The villain's :Arbitrary: Deceit and Mistrust increase by one if less than 16. If 16+ they roll for trait increase.

Success – the get away with it. The villain's Arbitrary increases by one if less than 16+. If 16+ they roll for increase.

Failure – the villain is suspected. They lose 100 glory/per point of dishonor.
They may confess and ask forgiveness (not possible for murder or -8* deeds). They then roll their Honesty and if they: critical they're forgiven and lose no glory; if they succeed they lose half glory for the misdeed; if they fail they lose the glory and are outlawed. Characters who confess roll for increase of their Honesty. They roll for increased trust if they succeed and increased Mistrust if they fail or fumble. Characters confessing suffer only half the normal dishonor.

Alternately, they may try to lie. They roll their Deceit: Critical are believed (no penalty) switching suspicion to a patsy they name; they succeed and lose no honor and only half the glory for the misdeed; they fumble and lose full glory for the deed and take full dishonor.

Thy may also live with the suspicion and lose 100 glory/ point of the dishonor of the misdeed.

They fumble and are caught red handed. They lose the points of honor and 100 glory/point of dishonor. They may confess and lose no glory. They lie and lose the honor and ½ the glory if they succeed and fumble the glory if they fail.

Characters reduced to negative glory are shunned, being no longer welcome in their county or the kingdom. They may leave Logres and start over in another kingdom. They are socially dead, but keep their manors and may live at them. They will no longer be received by their lord or any of his vassals or receive hospitality from a noble. Members of the villain's lineage lose 200 glory unless they disown the villain. His friends may secretly receive him. They then roll their Prudence as if they committed a dishonorable act and lose 100 glory if they fail and 200 if they fumble.

Honour loss and in character repercussions of crimes, those both falsified and real, are sufficient punishment.

I don't think there is a single mechanic in KAP for the loss of glory, in fact the very act of becoming outlawed, shunned or being cruelly executed might even result in glory.
(Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in-fa-me!)

Plus, only a brand new 21 year old, brand spanking new knight would be able to be written out of the game on glory loss.
Any other character would have far too much glory for the loss of 1500-2000 points to be enough to bring them below zero.
Even a character who travelled up and down on the snakes and ladder scale of honour would likely earn enough glory from his mis-adventures in order to stave off that fate.

The glory loss just isn't worth it as a mechanic.

Also, a single prudence roll is far too mild a resolution to a full blown court procedure. It should be a fan faire of intrigue and speeches, rich dialogue and veiled curses.
Lots of opportunity for roleplay, courtly manners and underhanded barbarism.
When this kind of thing arises in the GPC it received pages and pages of details and made for quite the memorable year whenever such events occured.

The Prudence roll is for getting away with the misdeed, not for the trial. I know there are no glory loss rules for dishonor, but there ought to be. A character would be normally disgraced before they were dishonored and letting the villain frame patsies is an adventure hook.

Only problem with Glory loss against dishonor is this 1 their is honor amongst thieves and even the most notorious black hearted knight of the game who slaughtered many a round table knight till Lancelot dealt with him was sir Turquine had 5,115 in glory and even the most dastardly Knight who was with out virtue or honor. Kills women and children with out remorse, and has survived through lies, deceit, and cowardly flight from his betters. and is inspired by his hate of Arthur and all his knights. is none other then if you have not guessed already is Brus snas Pitie he is also other wise known as The Black Knight has an honor 4 and 13,000 glory and his hate for Arthur and his knights is a 21, and his brother Sir Bertelot killed Sir Amren when he and his brother kidnapped the queen and Lancelot rescued her and then after that they also killed Sir Armen's wife and took over his manor and castle till his daughter who was in the care of Arthur was wed to a brave knight who ended up killing them both and free her land which earned him Armens set at the round table which was Sir Tor in the story but was rewritten for the game to allow a pk to fill this role in the adveture of the heart blade in the Blood & Lust (CHA2711) supplement any way Sir Bertelot has 4,025 glory and an honor score of 3.

I agree, no glory-loss ever...

fg,
Thijs

I like the procedural steps you've outlined here, Snaggle. I do agree with the other on nixing the loss of Glory. Greg's intention is that even evil deeds can win Glory. If you think about it more as Renown or Infamy you'll be closer to the concept.

What I'd like to see is an expanded list of legal proceedings through the different types of courts — Manorial, Hundred, County (Shire) and Royal. What sorts of crimes are tried at what levels, and what is the procedure? How long does the process take? What are the punishments? The loopholes? What are the effects of corruption and outside influence. Those kinds of things, at each level and in game terms, of course, so that the accused can use Traits and Skills to influence the outcome.

This is a good start.


T.

so do you want me to share my Campaign Option The Legal System for KAP?
and if so do you want here or on a thread by itself?

I like the procedural steps you've outlined here, Snaggle. I do agree with the other on nixing the loss of Glory. Greg's intention is that even evil deeds can win Glory. If you think about it more as Renown or Infamy you'll be closer to the concept.

What I'd like to see is an expanded list of legal proceedings through the different types of courts — Manorial, Hundred, County (Shire) and Royal. What sorts of crimes are tried at what levels, and what is the procedure? How long does the process take? What are the punishments? The loopholes? What are the effects of corruption and outside influence. Those kinds of things, at each level and in game terms, of course, so that the accused can use Traits and Skills to influence the outcome.

This is a good start.


T.


The legal procedure is the real Medieval English legal procedure. Maybe change the glory loss to infamy, with disgrace happening when their infamy exceeds their honor.

Legal procedure (there are eight volumes. V1 http://books.google.com/books?id=vfsyAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=g bs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

V2 http://archive.org/stream/historyofenglish02holduoft#page/n5/mode/2up

V3 http://archive.org/stream/historyofengl3rd03holduoft#page/n7/mode/2up (http://archive.org/stream/historyofengl3rd03holduoft#page/n7/mode/2up)

All in English 8)

so do you want me to share my Campaign Option The Legal System for KAP?
and if so do you want here or on a thread by itself?


Yes

so do you want me to share my Campaign Option The Legal System for KAP?

Oh, hell yeah!


and if so do you want here or on a thread by itself?

In a separate thread in this forum, please.

Ian Mortimer's TIME TRAVELER'S GUIDE TO MEDIEVAL ENGLAND is a great resource for this stuff. Of course, there's no PENDRAGONY goodness in it. I've been meaning to get around to this project myself, but there's simply not enough hours in the day, my friends. If someone else has tread this ground, I'd love to see it! But in a separate thread, please.


Thanks,


T.

Ok I will but it is more of a generic nature I use it for all my games and it is d20 based so it will work in KAP just fine as is but is not specific to any one game.