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Snaggle
04-03-2013, 08:30 AM
SOCIAL RANKS

I have not written any house rules into these, hoping those who want historically accurate games will use them to write their own house rules.

WEALTHY KNIGHTS

RICH KNIGHTS*
Holding a large fee (magna feodum)

ORDINARY KNIGHTS*
Holding a fee (feodum)

POOR KNIGHTS *
Holding a small fee (minuta feodum) of a manor.


*Wealthy Knights
Were the more successful versions of “Rich Knights”. Holdings d6+4 manors the size of Ordinary Knights. Their status was high enough for them to be: sheriffs; foresters; or sub-escheators. They would be reporting to King Arthur's court and receiving orders from it and might be off and on Athur's Household Knights. If Household Knights they would normally serve King Arthur for a year or three before returning home.

*Rich Knights
Did not differ from ordinary Knights in arms or function; but most likely they were originally the “Constable”/ leader of a group of ten ordinary Knights. They held d3+1 manors the size of Ordinary Knights. During the 13th century they became the “Ordinary Knights”.
Their status was high enough for them to be: Royal Bailiffs over hundreds; verderers (serving foresters as bailiffs served sheriffs)

*Ordinary Knights
Served as lancers, arms: lance; sword; shield and hauberk. In KAP terms reinforced mail with a dagger. The hauberk was a mail coat reaching a little below the knees, the reinforcements were a splint vambrace on their sword arm and a pair of split greaves. Their real holdings were 4-7 hides. Their daily pay would have been 8d when serving Arthur, paid in a lump sum of 26s 8d (two marks). Historically in the 13th century they become the “Poor Knights”.

*Poor Knights
Served as companions to the Ordinary Knights, following behind him into battle. In the second period they're reduced to adult squires/landed squires. Arms: an espie/boars spear; sword; shield and haubergel. The haubergel was a short mail coat reaching a little pass the hips, the sheaves of the coat reached only to about mid upper arm. Note: the “boar spear” though it became the standard hunting weapon http://www.forensicfashion.com/800CarolingianKnightSpear.html it started out as the winged spear carried by Carolingian Scara (pl. Scarae). It had several variations and remained in use till the end of the middle ages.

In game they'll have their basic 2 hide fee extended about one oxgang whenever their lord rewards them for exceptional service, since Pk are already exceptional Knights their manor will be extended to two hides and they'll become Ordinary Knights (the grade they'll pass on to the next Knight in their line)

Wealthy Knight 1,200s+
Rich Knights 480s+ 8 hides, lives in brick or stone hall (with a lead roof)
Ordinary Knights 240s+ 4 hides, lives in brick or stone hall (with wooden shingled roof)
Poor knight income 120s+ 2 hides/240 acres, lives in hall (with wooden shingled roof)
Franklin* 60s a hide/120 acres, lives in house (with wooden shingled roof)
Franklin (poor) 30s ½ hide/60 acres, lives in house (with wooden shingled roof)
Sokemen/Molmen* 15s ¼ hide/30 acres, lives in house (with thatched roof)
Villein 15s ¼ hide/30 acres (virgate/yardland), lives in house (with thatched roof)
Bordar* 11s 3d 1/8 hide/15 acres (bovate/oxgang), lives in bord (cottage)
Cottar * 7s 6d a messuage/2-5 acres (add 6d+/acre income)
Serf /Slave* 11s 3d special
Hireling 7s 6d

*Ordinary Knights
Served as lancers, arms: lance; sword; shield and hauberk. In KAP terms reinforced mail with a dagger. The hauberk was a mail coat reaching a little below the knees, the reinforcements were a splint vambrace on their sword arm and a pair of split greaves. Their real holdings were 4-7 hides. Their daily pay would have been 8d when serving Arthur, paid in a lump sum of 26s 8d (two marks). In the second period they become the poor knights.

*Poor Knights
Served as companions to the Ordinary Knights, following behind him into battle. In the second period they're reduced to adult squires/landed squires.

*Franklins were the better sort of freemen, a mounted sergeant holds the same amount of land, but sergeants might or might not be free, while franklins always were. A poor franklin holds the same land as a foot sergeant, though the poorer sergeants hold only the same land as a villein and many were sergeants in name only. There would be at least 2 poor franklins or foot sergeants serving with a knight, though they were not really his men. They went with him to join the host and then joined other foot sergeants. Both franklins and sergeants get kicked out of armies in the 13th century. Sergeants were also kicked out of hall and a new order of servants replaced them or they were renamed: yeomen and grooms. Their never was a “Yeoman class” in the middle ages. During the 15th century some yeoman farmed (rented) parts of the demesne of their seigneurs, though generally yeomen were paid servants living in the household of their seigneurs.

*Sokemen/Molmen paid set rents in cash or kind and could not be “squeezed”.


*Villeins were the typical tenants, they were neither free or slaves. Their status was like a Roman “freedman”, though they had been the poorest free men before 1066 ;).


*Bordars had half-size holdings, leaving them free to earn about half as much as an ordinary hireling.

*Cottars were both the richest and the poorest tenants of a manor.

*Serfs were literally owned by their masters and could be sold off it. They generally, though lived about the same as villeins and bordars. They would not be “squeezed”

Millers (40s), lives in house (with wooden shingle roof)
Blacksmiths (30s), lives in house (with wooden shingled roof)
Carpenters (20s), lives in house (with wooden shingled roof)
Carter (20s), lives in house (with a wooden shingled roof)
Thatcher (15s), lives in house (with thatched roof)
Dairymaid ( 7s 6d)
Neatherds (7s 6d)
Shepherds (7s 6d)
Swineherds (7s 6d))
Hirelings were not tenants of even the lowest kind. They were either ruined tenants from another manor or vagabonds working place that would have them.

krijger
04-03-2013, 09:58 AM
But isnt this already in the default game?

fg,
Thijs

Snaggle
04-09-2013, 05:30 AM
But isnt this already in the default game?

fg,
Thijs


Not entirely, plus the KAP rules have people like Coopers who would never be found outside of Market towns and needed to work with specialized blacksmiths called "hoopers" and Jewelers (aka Goldsmiths who were richer than most knights to start with). I also should have put in tile roofs before lead ones :-[

The Official rules also allow Knights to build: mills; bakehouses and alehouses, while doing any of this would have generated hatred not reduced it. Any of them being build was a seigneur establishing a manorial monopoly. Would you love a lord who made you buy all your bread from him? One who made you have all your grain milled at his mill rather then being ground at home in querns? One who forbid your wife from brewing ale and selling it and forced you to buy ale at his alehouse? Or who had a dovecot with his pigeons and doves fattening themselves on your crowing corn?. It has silly things like gaming houses and sawmills too which would not have existed outside market towns.

Eothar
04-09-2013, 07:04 AM
The Official rules also allow Knights to build: mills; bakehouses and alehouses, while doing any of this would have generated hatred not reduced it.


I agree here.

Mills = Taxes (proportion of grain) = hate....

krijger
04-09-2013, 10:58 AM
The Official rules also allow Knights to build: mills; bakehouses and alehouses, while doing any of this would have generated hatred not reduced it. Any of them being build was a seigneur establishing a manorial monopoly. Would you love a lord who made you buy all your bread from him? One who made you have all your grain milled at his mill rather then being ground at home in querns? One who forbid your wife from brewing ale and selling it and forced you to buy ale at his alehouse? Or who had a dovecot with his pigeons and doves fattening themselves on your crowing corn?. It has silly things like gaming houses and sawmills too which would not have existed outside market towns.


So your comment is not on social ranks, but on the incorrect BoM investments. Good points though!. Would it be an idea for you to write an 'errata' for BoM/BoE for those historically inclined?

fg,
Thijs

Snaggle
04-10-2013, 12:33 AM
The Official rules also allow Knights to build: mills; bakehouses and alehouses, while doing any of this would have generated hatred not reduced it. Any of them being build was a seigneur establishing a manorial monopoly. Would you love a lord who made you buy all your bread from him? One who made you have all your grain milled at his mill rather then being ground at home in querns? One who forbid your wife from brewing ale and selling it and forced you to buy ale at his alehouse? Or who had a dovecot with his pigeons and doves fattening themselves on your crowing corn?. It has silly things like gaming houses and sawmills too which would not have existed outside market towns.


So your comment is not on social ranks, but on the incorrect BoM investments. Good points though!. Would it be an idea for you to write an 'errata' for BoM/BoE for those historically inclined?

fg,
Thijs


I wrote a much bigger article on the ranks and especially for the ranks above, but gutted it for the forum and just posted what i did to spark discussion.

krijger
04-10-2013, 10:49 AM
Of course I would be very interested in that article.. :)

fg,
Thijs

Morien
04-10-2013, 11:46 AM
Likewise. I don't suppose you have a website where you can post it?

Snaggle
04-11-2013, 07:50 AM
Likewise. I don't suppose you have a website where you can post it?


I'll either have it as part of the proboards site or create a separate website for the rules, but I'm 3-4 months away from completing my design. With a player base like a typical En garde game of 10-15 and hopefully 20-30.

krijger
04-11-2013, 12:01 PM
Wait, you are thinking of creating an En-garde type of game for Pendragon?
That's.. that's great! Been thinking about that for ages.

fg,
Thijs

Snaggle
04-11-2013, 01:10 PM
Wait, you are thinking of creating an En-garde type of game for Pendragon?
That's.. that's great! Been thinking about that for ages.

fg,
Thijs


The standard En Garde online games one real week = 1 game month. Am planning on a more or less KAP adventure during the real week with the winter phase executed like standard En Garde turn orders. I want the role playing elements to be more dominant than in KAP, which tends to kill role playing and substitute level climbing in religious knights, gentlewomen, romantic and chivalrous knights for magical bonuses. I want to free KAP up so that players can role play in a world full of conflict and therefore dramatic. Also almost all the Online En garde games are down, even Sun King :(. Players should not be trapped in skill climbing and playing harmonious characters.

Rob
04-11-2013, 07:22 PM
Can someone please enlighten me as to what En Garde refers to? The only game I'm familiar with is a dueling board game from the 1990s, and that seems markedly different from what's being discussed here.

krijger
04-11-2013, 09:09 PM
Can someone please enlighten me as to what En Garde refers to? The only game I'm familiar with is a dueling board game from the 1990s, and that seems markedly different from what's being discussed here.


http://engarde.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.engarde.co.uk/

(From the introduction to the original En Garde! rules)
In En Garde! a player finds himself born into and educated in a world where social climbing is a way of life, and status is a goal to be pursued even over money. It is a world inhabited by Cyrano, Roxanne, Scaramouche, Errol Flynn, Porthos, Athos, Aramis, Rhonda Fleming, François Villon, Constance and, of course, d'Artagnan. There are people to be used, friends in high places to be cultivated, enemies to be humiliated, the Cardinal's Guard to be trounced, lackies to be abused, the hand of a fair damsel to be won, and the ear of the King to be gained.
Come with us now, to those vibrant, bawdy days of Yore...
Sharpen your sword... Sharpen your wit... Take care not to insult a small man with a large nose... All for one and one for all... Good luck, friend, and may your swash never buckle!
The game is usually a series of "orders" supplied for one's character, usually over a month's (game) time:
PLAYERS in En Garde! must adhere to a strict time schedule of events, each player being responsible for maintaining his own personal calendar of events showing his actions each week, and any changes in social level, status points, or wealth. The basic unit of time is the week. ... For each week of the game, all players, after a short negotiation period, secretly note their personal actions for that week. The negotiation period is necessary to allow players to arrange for duels, toadying, or any other activity that must be arranged in advance. A player need not keep his word to other players, but must do what is written on his calendar. (From the En Garde! Rules)
The role-playing around this basic set of mechanics varies from game to game. The "short negotiation period" is often filled with large amounts of prose and discussion, particularly as a PBM or PBEM allows for a long period (usually a few weeks) between turns.

I loved the game, played it for 5 years (Banana) till my character sorta ruled France and retired by replacing the Cardinal as NPC...

fg,
Thijs

krijger
04-11-2013, 09:15 PM
Wait, you are thinking of creating an En-garde type of game for Pendragon?
That's.. that's great! Been thinking about that for ages.

fg,
Thijs


The standard En Garde online games one real week = 1 game month. Am planning on a more or less KAP adventure during the real week with the winter phase executed like standard En Garde turn orders. I want the role playing elements to be more dominant than in KAP, which tends to kill role playing and substitute level climbing in religious knights, gentlewomen, romantic and chivalrous knights for magical bonuses. I want to free KAP up so that players can role play in a world full of conflict and therefore dramatic. Also almost all the Online En garde games are down, even Sun King :(. Players should not be trapped in skill climbing and playing harmonious characters.


I dont have the exact experience. I've had mortal duals between players and very clear different political views), but in the end they joined forces for the good of the land.
However some kind of political (influence&toadying) game in the background would be great, allowing those more courtly character to also get some lands instead of those danger-seekers.
So some kind of Engarde game for downtime or for those players that cant show ("while you were off adventuring, I toadied to the King, spend my influence points that I got from my Amour and position and he gave me the castle you guys freed. Thx!").
But creating a Pendragon En-garde game will be a huge work! How much do you already have?

fg,
Thijs

Snaggle
04-13-2013, 07:40 AM
Wait, you are thinking of creating an En-garde type of game for Pendragon?
That's.. that's great! Been thinking about that for ages.

fg,
Thijs


The standard En Garde online games one real week = 1 game month. Am planning on a more or less KAP adventure during the real week with the winter phase executed like standard En Garde turn orders. I want the role playing elements to be more dominant than in KAP, which tends to kill role playing and substitute level climbing in religious knights, gentlewomen, romantic and chivalrous knights for magical bonuses. I want to free KAP up so that players can role play in a world full of conflict and therefore dramatic. Also almost all the Online En garde games are down, even Sun King :(. Players should not be trapped in skill climbing and playing harmonious characters.


I dont have the exact experience. I've had mortal duals between players and very clear different political views), but in the end they joined forces for the good of the land.
However some kind of political (influence&toadying) game in the background would be great, allowing those more courtly character to also get some lands instead of those danger-seekers.
So some kind of Engarde game for downtime or for those players that cant show ("while you were off adventuring, I toadied to the King, spend my influence points that I got from my Amour and position and he gave me the castle you guys freed. Thx!").
But creating a Pendragon En-garde game will be a huge work! How much do you already have?

fg,
Thijs


About 20 files or around 60,000 words. the Player characters are only going to see around 6,000 words or 10,000 if I can't but it down more. will have at least 150,000 words before I start dumbing it down for players, who will mainly have to try things and see what happens rather than knowing how everything works to start with - no mystery there and Players who want to mini max are going to have to gain enough experience of the game to even be able to try to mini max.

krijger
04-13-2013, 03:07 PM
About 20 files or around 60,000 words. the Player characters are only going to see around 6,000 words or 10,000 if I can't but it down more. will have at least 150,000 words before I start dumbing it down for players, who will mainly have to try things and see what happens rather than knowing how everything works to start with - no mystery there and Players who want to mini max are going to have to gain enough experience of the game to even be able to try to mini max.


That's just rules?
Do you have it automatised?
Do you plan to run it for 'own players' only or make it a full online game?

fg,
Thijs

Snaggle
04-13-2013, 09:12 PM
About 20 files or around 60,000 words. the Player characters are only going to see around 6,000 words or 10,000 if I can't but it down more. will have at least 150,000 words before I start dumbing it down for players, who will mainly have to try things and see what happens rather than knowing how everything works to start with - no mystery there and Players who want to mini max are going to have to gain enough experience of the game to even be able to try to mini max.


That's just rules?
Do you have it automatised?
Do you plan to run it for 'own players' only or make it a full online game?

fg,
Thijs


a small 20-30 player online game is want I'm shooting for, open to anyone, in fact I don't want to play with people I know because role playing is more fun when you're free to be anyone.

krijger
04-13-2013, 10:44 PM
Well, we havnt met in real life yet. Can I join?

fg,
This