Since radical resigns are unpopular, I'm going to stay usually pretty close to the canonical KAP rules. These House rules are designed to spark discussion about how to handle the KAP rules.

ROMANCE SKILLS

DANCING – this is pretty marginal as a skill, as it gains glory only when the dancers were the center of attention. For men this would only happen at their betrothals and weddings and they would only gain a pathetic one point per point of success. Not at all worth taking for glory. For women this would be a fairly good glory skill as when when singing carols (which they danced to) they were the centers of attention. They could gain glory from it twice every winter phase (once at the feast and another time at the tourney of their Lord) They also had leaders who called out the moves, choreographed in advance, but danced to spontaneously by others. To be the center of attention attention personally in a carol maybe rules like these +1/point of APP. over 15, the beautiful voice bonus added and then roll their dance skill – they would have lots of Critical Successes earning 20 points of glory and would gain Singing glory at the same time.

In general dancing should be a way to determine whether a woman is attracted to a man by accepting him as a dance partner and for the women to provoke attraction from men, so still useful romantically to men.

Women and men could attempt to flirt with each other at their Lord's annual tourney, feast or when practicing falconry together (again limit to once a year). House rule: individuals who critically succeed with an Appearance roll and then succeed with a flirting roll have infatuated the other, so do characters who succeed in an appearance roll and critically succeed in their Flirting roll. A character who has made it to step 3 successfully and then critically succeeds on their Romance roll also Infatuate the other.

FLIRTING AND ROMANCE

I would do this, Steps of a Romance:
1. Both parties succeed in Appearance rolls, proceed to Flirting
2. Both parties succeed in Flirting rolls, proceed to Romance.
3. Both parties succeed in their Romance, proceed to formation of Amour.

Characters just seeking to seduce a potential wife/husband to gain her/his manors in marriage don't need to have the other succeed. They instead increase Deceit and Selfishness each time the one they're courting for profit fails a roll and they proceed. After the first courting for profit they increase or roll for increase only if the one they're courting fumbles and they proceed.
Damsels and Dames with an Appearance 16+ are always allowed a new Appearance roll, if they failed the first one if they successfully Flirt with a Knight.
Knights courting Damsels and Dames for romance rather than greed lose interest if she fails her Appearance roll or if she fumbles a Flirting or Romance roll. If she fails a Flirting or Romance roll an Appearance roll is made if successful she may try the Flirting or Romance again.
Knights who are: Notable (+1); Famous (+2); Extraordinary (+3) to their chance of rolling a critical success on their Appearance, Flirting and Romance rolls. Note: this is not added to the chance of success itself e. g. an Extraordinary Knight with a Flirting skill of 15 would roll a critical success on a roll of 12-15.
Ladies with an Appearance of 16+ who critically succeed on their Appearance roll can't fumble Flirting or Romance rolls.
Ladies and Knights who are just toying with Belles or Beaus for glory only need to succeed in their own: Appearance; Flirting and Romance rolls.


Follow the KAP Standard rules or use my Heretical House Rules.


MY HOUSE RULE FOR AMOUR PASSION
The initial Appearance roll add +d3 if a Success and +6 if a Critical Success.
Flirting and Romance rolls add +1 if a Success and +4 if a Critical Success.
After a Success or Critical Success on the Flirting or Romance rolls Appearance is rolled again, a Success adds +1 and a Critical Success +2 to their Lover's Amour.

If the Amour Passion has been created:
+6 if they save their lover's life to the lover's Amour;
Knights add +1 to the Amour of single Ladies for each £3 of landed income they have over the Damsel's or Widow's landed income or annual dowry income.
Damsels and Widows add +1 to the Amour of single Knights for each £3 of landed income they have and +1 per £3 annual lifetime Dowry they have.
Ladies or “Ladies” add +1 per for each point their Appearance is over 18 to their Lover's Amour;
+1 for each successful Flirting and +2 for each Critical Success (limit one each per year of courting);
If a character fumbles a Flirting or Romance roll -2 to their Lover's Amour ( if they neglect their Lover and make no Flirting or Romance rolls in a year their Lover's Amour drops 4).

A personal request, to seperate female and male rules, because default KAP is about males, and female characters, because of completely different play, deserve their own chapter.



Since radical resigns are unpopular, I'm going to stay usually pretty close to the canonical KAP rules. These House rules are designed to spark discussion about how to handle the KAP rules.

ROMANCE SKILLS

DANCING – this is pretty marginal as a skill, as it gains glory only when the dancers were the center of attention. For men this would only happen at their betrothals and weddings and they would only gain a pathetic one point per point of success. Not at all worth taking for glory.


Agreed, but it being among the courtly skills a success could be used as requirement for a romance in the later period.



For women this would be a fairly good glory skill as when when singing carols (which they danced to) they were the centers of attention. They could gain glory from it twice every winter phase (once at the feast and another time at the tourney of their Lord) They also had leaders who called out the moves, choreographed in advance, but danced to spontaneously by others. To be the center of attention attention personally in a carol maybe rules like these +1/point of APP. over 15, the beautiful voice bonus added and then roll their dance skill – they would have lots of Critical Successes earning 20 points of glory and would gain Singing glory at the same time.


Women are always NPC in my game, so their glory is GM fiat anyway...



In general dancing should be a way to determine whether a woman is attracted to a man by accepting him as a dance partner and for the women to provoke attraction from men, so still useful romantically to men.

Women and men could attempt to flirt with each other at their Lord's annual tourney, feast of when practicing falconry together (again limit to once a year). House rule: individuals who critically succeed with an Appearance roll and then succeed with a flirting roll have infatuated the other, so do characters who succeed in an appearance roll and critically succeed in their Flirting roll. A character who has made it to step 3 successfully and then critically succeeds on their Romance roll also Infatuate the other.


Hmm, I would certainly separate Romance and Lust here. Surely they are connected, but clearly separate.
What you describe seems more like lust than romance.
Flirting has no place in romance (if I remember the rulebook).



FLIRTING AND ROMANCE

I would do this, Steps of a Romance:
1. Both parties succeed in Appearance rolls, proceed to Flirting
2. Both parties succeed in Flirting rolls, proceed to Romance.
3. Both parties succeed in their Romance, proceed to formation of Amour.

Characters just seeking to seduce a potential wife/husband to gain her/his manors in marriage don't need to have the other succeed. They instead increase Deceit and Selfishness each time the one they're courting for profit fails a roll and they proceed. After the first courting for profit they increase or roll for increase only if the one they're courting fumbles and they proceed.

Hence no player will ever admit to it and claim to be true love.
Start 'punishing' with Deceit/Selfishness if having multiple suitors/suitees or so. Or give bonusses to their amour rolls if you take a voluntary Deceit and Selfishness check :)





Damsels and Dames with an Appearance 16+ are always allowed a new Appearance roll, if they failed the first one if they successfully Flirt with a Knight.
Knights courting Damsels and Dames for romance rather than greed lose interest if she fails her Appearance roll or if she fumbles a Flirting or Romance roll.

No true Romantic knight EVER looses interest in his lady!


If she fails a Flirting or Romance roll an Appearance roll is made if successful she may try the Flirting or Romance again.
Knights who are: Notable (+1); Famous (+2); Extraordinary (+3) to their chance of rolling a critical success on their Appearance, Flirting and Romance rolls. Note: this is not added to the chance of success itself e. g. an Extraordinary Knight with a Flirting skill of 15 would roll a critical success on a roll of 12-15.
Ladies with an Appearance of 16+ who critically succeed on their Appearance roll can't fumble Flirting or Romance rolls.
Ladies and Knights who are just toying with Belles or Beaus for glory only need to succeed in their own: Appearance; Flirting and Romance rolls.


Follow the KAP Standard rules or use my Heretical House Rules.


MY HOUSE RULE FOR AMOUR PASSION
The initial Appearance roll add +d3 if a Success and +6 if a Critical Success.
Flirting and Romance rolls add +1 if a Success and +4 if a Critical Success.
After a Success or Critical Success on the Flirting or Romance rolls Appearance is rolled again, a Success adds +1 and a Critical Success +2 to their Lover's Amour.

If the Amour Passion has been created:
+6 if they save their lover's life to the lover's Amour;
Knights add +1 to the Amour of single Ladies for each £3 of landed income they have over the Damsel's or Widow's landed income or annual dowry income.
Damsels and Widows add +1 to the Amour of single Knights for each £3 of landed income they have and +1 per £3 annual lifetime Dowry they have.
Ladies or “Ladies” add +1 per for each point their Appearance is over 18 to their Lover's Amour;
+1 for each successful Flirting and +2 for each Critical Success (limit one each per year of courting);
If a character fumbles a Flirting or Romance roll -2 to their Lover's Amour ( if they neglect their Lover and make no Flirting or Romance rolls in a year their Lover's Amour drops 4).


Financial motivation has nothing to do with Amour, Amour is high Romance. Also a weird thing in Pendragon is you can marry your Amour. Amours should be high noble married ladies!
Men have interest in women for 3 reasons in Pendragon:
High Romance/True Love (married high noble woman for Glory gain) [ Passion Amour]
Marriage (Financial/Political gain) [Passion Loyalty (Family)]
Lust (Those lustfull checks and bastards with lower classes) [Trait Lustful or passion Covet(women)]
These three should each have their own rules as they do NOT mix..
Any knight falling in love with his (future) wife is a major exception, which can be done by following the rules of Amour till the day of marriage after which the knight has the choice of converting his Amour (or Love already if having a good amour solo run) into a Love(wife) or let her fall under Loyalty(Family). However in order to marry her he also has to follow the rules of (getting) marriage, which likely involve persuading her Lord (and not the lady herself, though a bonus might be in place if the woman really likes you and speaks on your behalf to her Lord (if he has some kind of trait/passion that he cares about her opinion).

I would be very interested in discussing those separate rules...

fg,
Thijs

Women are always NPC in my game, so their glory is GM fiat anyway...

In forum based games, it's normal not to allow dead characters to post. Having Players create sisters for their character allows them to post and plot vengeance with an in game character. It also adds one Damsel to the available belles to be courted or wed, saving the GM the trouble and helps texture the game. In KAP it would allow them to play her husband rather than a brother when they die, assuming they don't like their family characteristic and want a new roll for one.


Hmm, I would certainly separate Romance and Lust here. Surely they are connected, but clearly separate.
What you describe seems more like lust than romance.
Flirting has no place in romance (if I remember the rulebook).

The steps are realistic and lust and sexual love can't be separated. Only only flirts with women one is attracted to and only dates those one has successfully flirted with. One can certainly love a woman with nothing sexual involved, but would one flirt with them, romance them or marry them!


Hence no player will ever admit to it and claim to be true love.
Start 'punishing' with Deceit/Selfishness if having multiple suitors/suitees or so. Or give bonusses to their amour rolls if you take a voluntary Deceit and Selfishness check...No true Romantic knight EVER looses interest in his lady

Players may lie to their GM all they like, but the GM controls things like mandatory trait or passion increase/decrease checks and whether or not they gain experience. In real like courting is not an opposed process, but a harmonious one, where one can only succeed if the other succeeds too. To use a Machiavellian principle ones only friends or lovers are those who love the greatness and goodness of ones heart, the rest are just worthless whores and toadies.


Financial motivation has nothing to do with Amour, Amour is high Romance. Also a weird thing in Pendragon is you can marry your Amour. Amours should be high noble married ladies!
Men have interest in women for 3 reasons in Pendragon:
High Romance/True Love (married high noble woman for Glory gain) [ Passion Amour]
Marriage (Financial/Political gain) [Passion Loyalty (Family)]
Lust (Those lustfull checks and bastards with lower classes) [Trait Lustful or passion Covet(women)]
These three should each have their own rules as they do NOT mix..
Any knight falling in love with his (future) wife is a major exception, which can be done by following the rules of Amour till the day of marriage after which the knight has the choice of converting his Amour (or Love already if having a good amour solo run) into a Love(wife) or let her fall under Loyalty(Family). However in order to marry her he also has to follow the rules of (getting) marriage, which likely involve persuading her Lord (and not the lady herself, though a bonus might be in place if the woman really likes you and speaks on your behalf to her Lord (if he has some kind of trait/passion that he cares about her opinion).

I would be very interested in discussing those separate rules...


Amour was low lust and betrayal of both ones husband and children by the "lady' and of both his Lord and comrades by the "knight" if he's courting and seducing the wife of either a comrade or his lord. Guinevere was normally seen as a base and treacherous wife in the real middle ages - its really only the modern period that sees her as sympathetic. Chre�tien de Troyes, who introduced Lancelot would not even finish his his work because he was so discussed by it's subject matter. Consider whom created the whole idea of courtly love, Elinor of Aquitaine and her equally notorious daughter. Bad women and dissatisfied wives were the women who always formed the courts of love. What these women have to say about love is no more important than what divorced women say about love and their ex husbands.

Just because a successful amour has been formed does not mean it will end in marriage, practical matters inferred with amours just as they do in the modern period. I agree that they have nothing to do with the formation of the Amour.

Lets just say that I very much disagree with your portrayal of Eleanor as a bad woman. Dissatisfied wife, I'll give you that, but I would be inclined to blame more Louis VII and Henry II (the chasteness of one and the infidelities of the other) than Eleanor herself.

Amour, as I understood it, was supposed to be a chaste affair, 'pining' after the unattainable lady, rather than the intent of 'doing the deed' with your liege's wife. I do agree that cuckolding your liege or a comrade would be betrayal of the loyalty, and I'd impose rather stiff reductions to the Loyalty passion as the result, and, if caught, ding the Honor passion, too.

I dont consider 'real life' here, but only the Pendragon RPG applications, where things as 'high amour' can really exist (and holy grails can actually be found). So for me in Pendragon lust and love are separated (however intermingled they might be in real life).

fg,
Thijs