I've been giving some thought on how to handle characters with a 16+ deceitful. Normally I like to give the PKs a description of a character's famous traits - This is what this person is known for...

With deceitful it seems inappropriate unless the character has been caught out in several outrageous lies previously.

My feeling is that a character with a high deceitful could be allowed to fake another famous passion or trait at the same value as their deceitful rating.

Thus a scheming villainous vassal with Loyalty (Lord) 6 could be lauded for his commitment to his liege while a playboy knight could hide his philandering and be praised for his chastity.

That is an interesting idea. Of course, a highly deceitful character doesn't automatically mean that they are good at hiding their deceit. That would be more of a matter of Intrigue, I'd think?

That is an interesting idea. Of course, a highly deceitful character doesn't automatically mean that they are good at hiding their deceit. That would be more of a matter of Intrigue, I'd think?


I'd agree there. The high deceitful gives the motivation to try but not necessarily the skill to pull it off. If they are found out and publicly outed then they become known as Sir Cador the Liar or something similar and normal service is resumed.

huh i always thought a lie was deceitful vs opponents suspicious...

huh i always thought a lie was deceitful vs opponents suspicious...


That could very well be, but then the question follows, how to model a habitual liar who is bad at it?

I like Morningkiller's suggestion on how to model an effective liar, but I still think that in order to pull such a long-term false personality off, they should have high Intrigue to back their Deceitful up. Or they'd trip somewhere and have their lies exposed.

huh i always thought a lie was deceitful vs opponents suspicious...


That's what I'd normally use too for individual lies. The intrigue roll would be more to model the orchestrated campaign of deception so the character doesn't trip up.

Edit: ninja'd by Morien

I've been giving some thought on how to handle characters with a 16+ deceitful. Normally I like to give the PKs a description of a character's famous traits - This is what this person is known for...

With deceitful it seems inappropriate unless the character has been caught out in several outrageous lies previously.

My feeling is that a character with a high deceitful could be allowed to fake another famous passion or trait at the same value as their deceitful rating.

Thus a scheming villainous vassal with Loyalty (Lord) 6 could be lauded for his commitment to his liege while a playboy knight could hide his philandering and be praised for his chastity.


This is an interesting idea, but those who are getting away with faking another character are not necessarily Deceitful 16+, most successfully doing this are Jeckle and Hyde Honest 10/Deceitful 10. Narcissists are all hypocrites and amoral opportunists. they have no principles at all, but fake that they do. Bush, Shrub and Obama are all this sort of person. If you have Netflix watch "Pretty Wild" Lexi is also this sort of person, though more charming than the political trash. She still had her family believing her lies after she was found out. Warning: not family friendly because of topless scenes, but very worth watching if you want to catch the spoor of these sorts and recognize them when you see them and hopefully not be one of their dupes.

I would tend to interpret Traits as behavior. So a Deceitful 16+ lies and schemes a lot or is at least tempted to do so.

The character's success would be determined by circumstance appropriate skills. One might use Orate to lie in open court, Intrigue to scheme behind the scenes, Romance to seduce for nefarious purposes, and the like.

A trait like Cautious / Reckless might determine how much self control the character had over lying in certain situations. For example, an Intriguer with poor Orate skills (but high Deceitful), might rolls Cautious vs. Deceitful to avoid lying via Orate in open court. If Deceitful wins, he can't help himself and tries to pull off a lie.

You might also have a character make an annual Deceitful roll to 'hide' his nature and not gain glory from being deceitful. Perhaps failure would lose Honor.

NT

This is intended more as a device to explain why a high Deceitful can be considered 'famous' as well as a way for schemer types to hide certain negative characteristics for a dramatically appropriate amount of time.

For general intrigues and lies regular rules apply.

Hmm. Does high Deceitful mean that the character would be telling lies all the time? Can't it mean that he is very economical with the truth, always ready to opt for a lie if that seems to work better? Prone to exaggerating when that is to his benefit or downplaying his guilt? More inclined to come up with sneaky schemes and stratagems rather than a honest head-to-head collision of battle? Wily Odysseus type?

I agree with Morien here. A high deceitful does not mean that a person always lies. He could also be a trickster. Someone who will tell some truth, but never the whole truth.

Two things. First, yes, I didn't really respond to the original question. I like the idea of applying the glory to a different trait. That is being famous for some other trait. However, you might require some sort of annual Deceitful roll to maintain the charade. Obviously if the knight is caught out, he might become famous for being Deceitful. Think Lance Armstrong: once famous for winning the Tour de France 7 times...but now notorious for cheating his way to 7 Tour wins. He should probable lose Honor when his true nature becomes known.

As to always 'lying', I use the term loosely. However, a character with Deceitful 16+ might be tempted to lie when in a situation where doing so would be beneficial. To some extent, I think this portion of the game needs to be role played and the nature of the knight's Deceitfulness might not be derived from statistics but base on past storyline and how the knight developed a hight Deceitful trait. If the high trait developed through lying, then I'd make him roll to avoid lying. If the trait developed through playing tricks on people, then no.

NT

I've been giving some thought on how to handle characters with a 16+ deceitful. Normally I like to give the PKs a description of a character's famous traits - This is what this person is known for...

With deceitful it seems inappropriate unless the character has been caught out in several outrageous lies previously.

My feeling is that a character with a high deceitful could be allowed to fake another famous passion or trait at the same value as their deceitful rating.

Thus a scheming villainous vassal with Loyalty (Lord) 6 could be lauded for his commitment to his liege while a playboy knight could hide his philandering and be praised for his chastity.


Your villainous vassal would just have to make a successful deceit roll vs his lord's mistrust to pull fake loyalty (lord) off, but the lord should also have a save based on intrigue, at least after each betrayal by the cunning vassal. Others too would have a save based on their intrigue, but it would not matter, as long as the lord is hooked by the deception the vassal will be seen as loyal.