I read Robert Graves (of I, Claudius fame) book Belisarius the other day. It's not particularly interesting, but one thing I liked about it (apart from the foreword, which draws parallels between 6th Century Roman Empire and the Arthuric myths, particularly Belisarius as the First Knight) is the way that the conflict between Christianity and Roman Paganism is portrayed.

Of course, if you run a Pendragon campaign, you could include Roman Pagans in your game, particularly in the early eras (or if you run a Book of Grandfathers kind of game). I know that there are Neoplatonism in the BoKaL, but to my knowledge there are no official stats for Roman Pagans (i.e. the official roman state religion).

I read a bit, and as far as I can understand stoicism and cynicism were also quite important "religions" (i.e. philosophies) during the roman times, and survived into the 5th century.

So how would these religions look in Pendragon.

Stocisism
Just
Pious
Prudent
Temperate
Valorous
Bonus: +6 HP

Cymicism
Chaste
Generous
Honest
Modest
Temperate
Bonus: Never suffer Chirurgery needed

Well, I'm not a classicist, so I don't know of those are good interpretations. Any opinions?

But, alas, when I came to Roman Pagans, I kind of stuck. I do think Roman Pagans should be Energetic (since roman society emphasized the need for the active (male) citizien), and I think they should be Worldly (since their religion is practical, hands on, about benefits in this world, just like British Paganism). But what other traits (if any) were important in roman religion?

Lets see now... This is more what I vaguely remember about the Roman virtues, since I don't think Roman Religion provided much in the way of a moral code by itself.

Honest
Just
Valorous
Energetic
Temperate: More a Republican Rome... I could be persuaded to change this.
Proud: dignitas (also, it helps to balance the three (Just, Valorous, Energetic) Chivalric traits)

I wouldn't give them Worldly, since Romans were quite the sticklers for the religious forms and also superstitious. Omens taken before the battles and so forth.

Complicated subject Sharpeskytten, which centuries are you thinking of?

Catholicism that later broke into Roman Catholicism and Greek orthodoxy is really a late Roman Platonic mystery cult with a Jewish figure, even the trinity was in Platonism, but the trinity is sort of like the chicken and the egg.

Continuing with philosophical religions....

Epicureanism a Polytheistic Deism. Cicero wrote polemics against it which the Christians stole and still use against atheists :o. Since the Epicureans did not believe that the gods intervened in the world or intercede for humans Cicero called them Atheists and then made the retarded argument about only belief in supernatural aid and punishment being the sources of morality - such deep Mistrust and Selfishness that the words contemptible and silly seem weak for Cicero (he was a Stoic and I would be reluctant to call the stoics prudent).

Epicurean Values:Valor; Prudence; Temperance; Justice; Generosity. Bonus - lol, the Gods don't give men magical aid ;) they exist as examples of the beautiful and the good and what men can become in their hearts at least 8)

Cyrenaics = people with the same values as NWO illuminati types.

Cyrenaic values: Worldly; Indulgent; Lustful; Selfish; Arbitrary.
The sort version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdfPrkw_V3M

Lets see now... This is more what I vaguely remember about the Roman virtues, since I don't think Roman Religion provided much in the way of a moral code by itself.

Well, I think this might be the problem. But, still, I we by "Roman Pagan" mean, "someone who lives by the strictures and morality of the roman religion and society", we might make something like that.


Honest
Just
Valorous
Energetic
Temperate: More a Republican Rome... I could be persuaded to change this.
Proud: dignitas (also, it helps to balance the three (Just, Valorous, Energetic) Chivalric traits)

Good ideas. I'll add Proud to the list, with Energetic of Traits that are included in this religion, and the some of the other could be included too.


I wouldn't give them Worldly, since Romans were quite the sticklers for the religious forms and also superstitious. Omens taken before the battles and so forth.


I was thinking in those terms, but turned it down. But now I think that this is the correct line of reasoning, so - Worldly is off the list.

Complicated subject Sharpeskytten, which centuries are you thinking of?

I guess 5th century, when these ideas were historically still circulating in the former Roman world - and thus could enter a game of KAP. I'm thinking in terms of "the last of the Romans", that you could give this kind of religion to Ambrosius Aurelians or Ulfius or another "Roman" character early in the game as a contrast to the others. An individual who fights to protect the ancient values of Rome could be an interesting trope in KAP I think. You could even allow a PK Roman play one of these.


Continuing with philosophical religions....

Epicureanism a Polytheistic Deism. Cicero wrote polemics against it which the Christians stole and still use against atheists :o. Since the Epicureans did not believe that the gods intervened in the world or intercede for humans Cicero called them Atheists and then made the retarded argument about only belief in supernatural aid and punishment being the sources of morality - such deep Mistrust and Selfishness that the words contemptible and silly seem weak for Cicero (he was a Stoic and I would be reluctant to call the stoics prudent).

Epicurean Values:Valor; Prudence; Temperance; Justice; Generosity. Bonus - lol, the Gods don't give men magical aid ;) they exist as examples of the beautiful and the good and what men can become in their hearts at least 8)

Cyrenaics = people with the same values as NWO illuminati types.

Cyrenaic values: Worldly; Indulgent; Lustful; Selfish; Arbitrary.
The sort version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdfPrkw_V3M


:D

I was considering doing the Cyrenaics, but I didn't dare ... A bit to much Monty Python, perhaps. What would their advantage be?

I guess 5th century, when these ideas were historically still circulating in the former Roman world - and thus could enter a game of KAP. I'm thinking in terms of "the last of the Romans", that you could give this kind of religion to Ambrosius Aurelians or Ulfius or another "Roman" character early in the game as a contrast to the others. An individual who fights to protect the ancient values of Rome could be an interesting trope in KAP I think. You could even allow a PK Roman play one of these.

There are big problems with this:
1. Ambrosius Aurelians is the older brother of Uther and the Pendragons are tightly joined to Christianity.
2. The Roman Patricians largely adopted solar cults in the third century. If Ambrosius Aurelians was a real person he likely was the Emperor Aurelian who was a member of the Sol Invictus cult.
3. The fourth century was the century of the Christian conquest of the state and Roman Aristocracy with Pagans being forbidden to hold public office (excluding the 3 year reign of Julian who tried to re-establish Constantine's religious tolerance).
4. The fifth century would have been a period of "hidden paganism" like Arthur's Britain for Roman aristocrats.

There has only been one book written on the Sol Invictus cult and I have not read it, but in my ignorant opinion it does not seem much different than Mithraism, both were monotheistic solar cults, with a belief in heaven and hell (but not eternal hell), both were tolerant of the Greco-Roman gods converting them into angels (PS Julian was one of these solar cultist too) or regarding them as masks for their one God. Their values something like this:Valiant; Honest; Just; Trusting; Temperate and Vengeful- six rather than five, maybe pull out temperate. They were all religions of light seeing themselves as fighting the forces of darkness and had their own Satans too.

Tanks, Snaggle, intresting points.

For me, I run Pendragon as a game inspired by history, not shackled to history. (The "pagans" of Pendragon are make-believe, remember). I'm aware of the Mithras cult, but thats not really what got me going when I read Belisarius. I think you are right that Ambrosius is a bad candidate, but I still think that you could use a more or less well substantiated version of "roman paganism" i a Pendragon game. Indeed, the "hidden paganism" that you describe seems to me to open up interesting possibities, i.e. lords/knights who want to protect "roman paganism" but has to be sutble about it or even hide their true feelings etc.

Thanks, Snaggle, intresting points.

For me, I run Pendragon as a game inspired by history, not shackled to history. (The "pagans" of Pendragon are make-believe, remember). I'm aware of the Mithras cult, but thats not really what got me going when I read Belisarius. I think you are right that Ambrosius is a bad candidate, but I still think that you could use a more or less well substantiated version of "roman paganism" in a Pendragon game. Indeed, the "hidden paganism" that you describe seems to me to open up interesting possibilities, i.e. lords/knights who want to protect "roman paganism" but has to be subtle about it or even hide their true feelings etc.


Obviously Pendragon is alternate history, but if one is using something real one should at least be aware of it's real history. As for advantages Cyrenaics likely have formed secret cabals to aid each other or lets them have enchanted weapons or armor. It hard to see the Gods as granting a magical advantage to people who don't even believe in friendship and are just treacherous toadies to their associates or Gods. Giving the Solar Cultists +3 damage seems reasonable.

... should at least be aware of it's real history.

Yes, so thanks for your input, it really gave me something to ponder on.


Giving the Solar Cultists +3 damage seems reasonable.

Yeah, I was thinking on those lines too.

I will sum up the thread later today or at least later in the week. The Solar Cultist, included, thanks for those!

2. The Roman Patricians largely adopted solar cults in the third century. If Ambrosius Aurelians was a real person he likely was the Emperor Aurelian who was a member of the Sol Invictus cult.

I don't think that theory is widely held about Ambrosius and Aurelian. Aurelian doesn't seem to have had much of a link to the island, though he did negotiate with Tetricus to bring an end to the Gallic Empire of the Third C.

Ambrosius himself was probably Christian, as most of the Roman nobility and Urban classes were at that point, though that doesn't mean a Christianity that we would recognize. For game terms, what is there works well. The countryside though was much different.


4. The fifth century would have been a period of "hidden paganism" like Arthur's Britain for Roman aristocrats.

And would have been less hidden for those that dwelled outside of the urban centers. Conversion (forced or willing) /= practice.

Here is the way that I would tackle the problem in the game if you want a more psudo-historic feel.

Christianites stay the same

Sol Invictus: Chaste, Forgiving, Merciful, Proud, Temperate

Roman State: Per Morien's list, but I would include a required Passion of Pietas, the Roman sense of proper observance of ritual AND custom in both the public and private spheres, religious and non-religious function. I am unsure that this fits 5c Britain though.

There is already a Mithras writeup out there. Isis would be the difficult one.

Personally, I would just use Pagan as written and apply it to all pagans in Logres, then use Heathenism from Beyond the Wall for Cornwall, Cumbria, and Cambria.

If you are familiar with Glorantha and its Cults at all, there is an old Chaosium Digest out there that lists Gloranthan deities and resulting virtues. There are also a few of these on David Dunham's PenDragon Pass (http://www.pensee.com/dunham/pdp/pdp-r.html) site.

SDLeary

Personally, I would just use Pagan as written and apply it to all pagans in Logres, then use Heathenism from Beyond the Wall for Cornwall, Cumbria, and Cambria.

You could do that, definitely. And of course, no matter how cool the Pagans are, the Heathens are even cooler.

Time to sum up.

Roman Virtue
Energetic
Honest
Just
Proud
Temperate
Bonus: +2 Damage, +1 Healing


Stoicism
Just
Pious
Prudent
Temperate
Valorous
Bonus: +6 HP


Cynicism
Chaste
Generous
Honest
Modest
Temperate
Bonus: +2 Healing


Cyrenaics
Lustful
Selfish
Arbitrary
Worldly
Indulgent
Bonus: [individual benefit, such as re-roll Aging roll or re-roll Child Birth roll]