In Our Campaign (now in 546), we calculated the cost of some outfit packages for different knights, just to see how much money it takes to make a new knight in 530+. These are naturally intended more as guidelines rather than hard rules. In earlier Phases, the impoverished knight would be the poor knight, poor knight the normal one and the normal one would already be a rich knight, thanks to the reinforced chainmail, which is not commonly available. Also, remember to double the cost of chargers (and I would double the cost of Coursers, too).

Impoverished New Knight (the very very bare minimum, although prepare to be mistaken for a Mounted Mercenary Sergeant)
- Horses: Courser (£4-£5), Rouncy (£1)
- Armor: Norman Chain (£2)
- Weapons: Sword, 2 Spears, 2 Shields, 2 Lances, Dagger (~£0.5)
- Miscellaneous equipment (camp tent, travel gear, horse gear, etc) (~£0.5)
- Threadbare Knightly clothing (£0.5)
- (Poor) Feast (£2)
Total: £9.5 - £10.5 in equipment, £2 in knighting feast = £11.5 - £12.5

Poor New Knight (i.e. barely adequate, but you are clearly falling behind in the arms race)
- Horses: Charger (£8 - £10), 2 Rouncys (£2), Sumpter (£0.5)
- Armor: Norman Chain (£2)
- Weapons: Sword, 2 Spears, 2 Shields, 2 Lances, Dagger (~£0.5)
- Miscellaneous equipment (old pavilion (£0.5), travel gear (£0.25), horse gear (£0.25), etc) (£1)
- Knightly clothing (£1)
- (Poor) Feast (£2)
Total: £15 - £17 in equipment, £2 in knighting feast = £17 - £19

Normal New Knight (although in 540s, this is starting to be the mark of a 'poor' knight)
- Horses: Charger (£8 - £10), 2 Rouncys (£2), Sumpter (£0.5)
- Armor: Reinforced Chain (£4 - £5)
- Weapons: Sword, 2 Spears, 2 Shields, 2 Lances, Dagger (~£0.5)
- Miscellaneous equipment (pavilion (£1), horse gear (£0.25), war gear (£2, includes travel gear)) (~£3)
- Knightly clothing (£1)
- Feast (£5)
Total: £19 - £22 in equipment, £5 in knighting feast = £24 - £27

Comfortable New Knight (Average for 540s)
- Horses: Charger (£8 - £10), 2 Rouncys (£2), Sumpter (£0.5)
- Armor: Partial Plate (£10)
- Weapons: Sword, 2 Spears, 2 Shields, 2 Lances, Dagger (~£0.5)
- Miscellaneous equipment (pavilion (£1), horse gear (£0.25), war gear (£2, includes travel gear)) (~£3)
- Knightly clothing (£1)
- Feast (£5)
Total: £25 - £27 in equipment, £5 in knighting feast = £30 - £32
(Upgrading the Charger to an Andalusian with Cuirbouli barding would make the total £44.)

Rich New Knight (In 550s, this would become the 'expected norm'.)
- Horses: Andalusian (£20), Courser (£4), 2 Rouncys (£2), Sumpter (£0.5)
- Armor: Partial Plate (£10), Cuirbouli barding for the Andalusian (£2)
- Weapons: Sword, 2 Spears, 2 Shields, 2 Lances, Dagger (~£0.5)
- Miscellaneous equipment (nice pavilion (£2), nice horse gear (£0.5), war gear (£2, includes travel gear)) (~£4.5)
- Rich Knightly clothing (£2)
- £0.5 spending money
- Feast (£9)
Total: £46 in equipment, £9 in knighting feast = £55

Superlative New Knight (Noble heirs and such)
- Horses: Destrier (£32), Courser (£4), Palfrey (£4), 4 Rouncys (£4), 3 Sumpters (£1.5)
- Armor: Full Plate (£14), Chain barding for the Destrier (£10)
- Weapons: Decorated (£2) Sword, 2 Spears, 2 Shields, 2 Lances, Dagger (~£2.5)
- Miscellaneous equipment (fancy pavilion (£4), fancy horse gear (£2), fancy war gear (£4, includes travel gear)) (~£10)
- Superlative Knightly clothing (£4)
- £1 spending money
- Feast (£12+)
Total: £87 in equipment, £12+ in knighting feast = £99+

EDIT: Added the cost of clothing to the calculations and expanded on the miscellaneous equipment entry. Also added barding for the more expensive horses.

EDIT2: Corrected the price of the full plate.

Very nice, Morien.

Will this kind of calculations be included in the Book of Britons (or whatever it will be called)?

Yes, Nice indeed

We will post this on http://gspendragon.com/ for now

Thanks, guys. I edited the original post a bit to add the clothing and some more on the miscellaneous equipment, as it turned out to be a bit more expensive than I remembered.

Note that it is not an exact match with the Rulebook's Outfits, and naturally is meant more as a guideline, especially at higher wealth outfits where the variation can be great.

Superlative New Knight (Noble heirs and such)
- Horses: Destrier (£32), Courser (£4), Palfrey (£4), 4 Rouncys (£4), 3 Sumpters (£1.5)
- Armor: Full Plate (£25), Chain barding for the Destrier (£10)


How did you get to 25L for Full plate?
Also shouldnt the Destrier be attack-trained (tripling his value?)?

fg,
Thijs

Say your knight has to recruit knights for his new household. More specifically, let's say he wants to recruit one of Lord Salisbury's household knights to his own household. Assume the knight is on good terms with Salisbury, how would you handle this transaction? I imagine first you have to determine if Salisbury is willing to part with the household knight (see the Book of the Estate p. 21). How would you set this probability on a d20 roll? I imagine a successful Courtesy roll and gifts might modify this roll.

Assuming all that happens, the BoE further specifies that the departing knight must return his horse and arms. So I imagine the recruiting lord has to pay for new gear, eh? Which one of the levels below would be most appropriate? Normal? So the recruiting knight needs to come up with about £20?

Thanks in advance.


T.

How did you get to 25L for Full plate?
Also shouldnt the Destrier be attack-trained (tripling his value?)?


Apparently, I pulled that number out of a hat. I can't find where I took it from, but in a GPC p. 311, the value of the armor is quoted as £14. I will correct the entry to reflect that canonical number.

As for attack-trained destriers, sure, that would be the next tier, like Earls and such. I don't think every destrier should be attack-trained, and these outfits tend to be something the PKs could in principle get for their heirs, too, rather than to reflect the best possible ones that a king might have.

Assuming all that happens, the BoE further specifies that the departing knight must return his horse and arms. So I imagine the recruiting lord has to pay for new gear, eh? Which one of the levels below would be most appropriate? Normal? So the recruiting knight needs to come up with about £20?


Well, this is how we play it in our campaign:

1. The household knights own their own equipment; thus it is not returned to the liege even on a departure. Only in quite rare cases does the liege equip knights from zero (he does replace dead war horses in his service, though). However, if I were to think the replacement equipment, it depends on the phase and also what the household knight is used to. Would he be eager to change service from a rich lord who is outfitting his knights with partial plate and andalusians to someone offering a reinforced chain and a charger? Not to mention that a rich lord probably has more manors and heiresses around to reward loyal service, while a PK likely has only a few manors and will be very disinclined to grant any of those onwards. The reinforced chain + charger combination (Normal Knight) is the current baseline in our campaign (mid-540s), although partial plates are starting to be common, too.

2. Generally speaking, being able to hire a household knight is a good way to cultivate vassal heirs and/or do favors to the close kin of your vassals. Hence, if the knight in question is relatively unremarkable (such as hired mainly as a favor to the PKs) and there is a reasonable excuse (such as the PK being able to offer his cousin a household knight position of his own), the liege lord is generally amenable to releasing the knight from his service. A courtesy roll sounds like a good idea. On the other hand, if the knight is particularly skilled and has proven his value and trustworthiness over the years, the liege lord might take it amiss that a PK is trying 'poach' his best knights. There would be a big penalty for that. I am not sure if I would even roll it, but if I did, something in the order of -10 at minimum comes to mind. Individual cases might fall in between.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to emphasize it, although I alluded into it in the first part... The household knight himself might not be willing to move, either. Especially if he is in service to a noble lord famous for largesse, such as King Arthur. Would it not be a much wiser career move to stay serving King Arthur, who has several noble heiresses as his wards to marry off to loyal, deserving men, than to accept service with a knight of two manors, who is sure not to let one go if he can help it? It is a no-brainer, really. On the other hand, there are usually plenty of mercenary and/or young knights around, who don't have anything better, and would be eager to accept a household knight position even if it doesn't offer much in the way of advancement. It is still much much better than being an impoverished errant knight.

How did you get to 25L for Full plate?
Also shouldnt the Destrier be attack-trained (tripling his value?)?


Apparently, I pulled that number out of a hat. I can't find where I took it from, but in a GPC p. 311, the value of the armor is quoted as £14. I will correct the entry to reflect that canonical number.

As for attack-trained destriers, sure, that would be the next tier, like Earls and such. I don't think every destrier should be attack-trained, and these outfits tend to be something the PKs could in principle get for their heirs, too, rather than to reflect the best possible ones that a king might have.


I've got a personal email from Greg in which he states:
Costs:
Full Plate: 20
gothic Plate: 30

I also did this whole calculation once for Greg, but regrettably table was dropped for space reason.
Agree on attack-training..

fg,
Thijs

I've got a personal email from Greg in which he states:
Costs:
Full Plate: 20
gothic Plate: 30


Well, taking the GPC price list as:
Chainmail (10): £2 (town price)
Reinforced Chainmail (12): £4
Partial Plate (14): £10
We can see that the first 2 points above Chainmail are £1 each, but moving to partial plate, it is £3 each.

Greg's suggested values of £20 and £30 would be £5 each for the additional protection, which seems reasonable enough, although I probably would make the full plate a bit cheaper (£18, £4 per increased point of armor), to have a bit of a diminishing returns. But that is just me. :) £14 for a Full Plate seems like a bit too much of a bargain for me, I admit.

You wouldn't happen to have your calculations still somewhere, Thijs? You could post it here as a comparison?

I've got a personal email from Greg in which he states:
Costs:
Full Plate: 20
gothic Plate: 30


Well, taking the GPC price list as:
Chainmail (10): £2 (town price)
Reinforced Chainmail (12): £4
Partial Plate (14): £10
We can see that the first 2 points above Chainmail are £1 each, but moving to partial plate, it is £3 each.

Greg's suggested values of £20 and £30 would be £5 each for the additional protection, which seems reasonable enough, although I probably would make the full plate a bit cheaper (£18, £4 per increased point of armor), to have a bit of a diminishing returns. But that is just me. :) £14 for a Full Plate seems like a bit too much of a bargain for me, I admit.

You wouldn't happen to have your calculations still somewhere, Thijs? You could post it here as a comparison?


serie1: 2/4/10/16/22 (+2/+6+/+6/+6)
serie2: 2/4/10/20/34 (+2/+6+/+10/+14)
serie3: 2/4/10/20/30 (+2/+6/+10/+10, Greg)
Given that horses are 40L+ by that time... I would personally go with series 2..

Of course I got the final results of those calculations as I mailed them to Greg, but I lost the excel sheet that I used for it. Planning to rebuild that excel sheet anyway.
They were the costs of all the knights in BoKL, dont know why they didnt make it in.
Anyone interested PM/mail me.
However I remember drawing the conclusion it doesnt really make sense, as the differences in costs in certain periods between various levels of spending was either too large or too small..
Also I was wondering where the average knight got his 20L for Andulusian and 20L for Full plate (and some more for barding etc etc)...

Planning to update so that it makes sense...

fg,
Thijs

Hi Thijs. Sent you email.

As for the 'average' knight having an Andalusian and Full Plate, we came to the conclusion that this was not the usual 1-manor knight, but that at later phases, the 'average knight' would actually have been a Rich Knight in earlier phases. The knights with a £6 manor simply cannot keep up, and at least considering their equipment, they would be 'poor' in later phases. Or at least 'outdated'. Of course, they might occasionally win a better armor in tournaments or on the battlefield, but they'd start off with poorer equipment.

Hi Thijs. Sent you email.

As for the 'average' knight having an Andalusian and Full Plate, we came to the conclusion that this was not the usual 1-manor knight, but that at later phases, the 'average knight' would actually have been a Rich Knight in earlier phases. The knights with a £6 manor simply cannot keep up, and at least considering their equipment, they would be 'poor' in later phases. Or at least 'outdated'. Of course, they might occasionally win a better armor in tournaments or on the battlefield, but they'd start off with poorer equipment.


While I fully agree, according to 5.1 the ordinary 6L manor knight has ordinary equipment when he starts (to be paid by his poor peasants coughing up 50L).
The ordinary knight is the most common encountered knight...
(For me the ordinary knight is the 6L manor knight, the poor knight likely a household knight, and richer knights baronets and up...)
I'd agree that in later phases it should be much much harder to be rich... but ordinary will always be ordinary..
Of course a knight surviving a period will have outdated equipment, but his son will have 'updated/expensive' equipment paid by poor peasants (according 5.1)

fg,
Thijs