I've always been a fan of buying stats, not rolling. Primarily because its 1) fair and 2) gives players control/freedom, two Good Things.

Now I'm having a change of heart.

The problems with the point-buy system is that it creates too many PKs that look alike. This may have to do with my GM-style - that is, I run a game with open die rolls and a "high" level of character death. Evidence is collecting the last 20 years that this is an optimum starting build in high lethality campaigns:

SIZ: 16-18
DEX: 8-10
STR: 8-10 (make sure you have 5D6-damage!)
CON: 16-18
APP: 7-9

This gives you a good HP, make you hard to knock down, a solid damage, and no really low stat which could make you bedridden due to wounds/failed passions/early unfortunate aging. (You could depress APP and DEX more, and CON some, for a 6D6 damage starting PK, but I still think the "basic build" is better).

I'm getting pretty bored with seeing this build. I would like to see some quirky stats. The excellent fighter with poor health. The mediocre fighter who has a great DEX. One or two handsome knights. You get the idea ...

Also, the point-buy system is the reason APP is a dump-stat (see here: http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1302.0). Is packs very little whump in the rules - the only thing I can remember is a bonus on Flirting and a higher Amor passions.

Of course, if you roll stats, these problem disappears, at least at character creation.

But. The problem with rolling is that it can make life very unfair for new PKs. Also, rolling 3D6 or 3D6+1 creates too many unplayable PKs. I wound say that you would need SIZ 12 or so, at least 25 HP and 4D6 damage to have a PK with reasonable survivability and playability.

So what you (well I, at least) want is a system to roll stats that is somewhat fair and guarantees basic survivability and playability and where you wont have to re-roll stats endlessly.

Also, PKs should be as good as or somewhat better than standard knights of their age. "Young Knights" in the rules have SIZ 14, DEX 11, STR 11, CON 14, APP 11, thats 61 points (compared with 63 for a point-buy starting PK), 28 HP and 4D6 damage, pretty close to my definition of "survivability and playability".

Here is one such system:

SIZ: roll 1D6+12; all other stats roll are 3D6.

Any stat below 5 is increased to 5 (after cultural modifiers).

If you have 60 or few points on your stats, you may re-roll the whole line up.
If you have over 70 points, you must re-roll the whole line up. (This keeps all new PKs in the 61-70 bracket, i.e. good an fair starting stats).

I did a dry run of the system, rolling 14 stat lines. Half had 60 points of fewer (and a few of those could be played, I think), none had over 70.

Any comments?

Should I roll 2D6+6 instead? Or have a minimum stat of 6 or 8 instead?

If you have 60 or few points on your stats, you may re-roll the whole line up.
[…]
I did a dry run of the system, rolling 14 stat lines. Half had 60 points of fewer […]


I suspect that, perhaps, this might prove a bit tedious, in the long run.

Have you considered 4d6, pick best three? That’s an average of 12.24, so with 1D6+12 for size you can expect an average of 67.75 points for a randomly rolled character. Might be a good start to tinker with.

Still, I prefer the point buy system. After all, what really makes characters different is less their stats than their Traits and Passions, once those have developed a bit.

I use a rolling point buy system

you roll the scores then if they are to high for the point buy, the player must lower the scores, evenly but in a order of his/her choosing. If the rolls are to low, either a reroll is in order the scores are to low or the player may raise his scores again, in an even fashion but can not raise scores that are already notable (at 16).

This result in a more organic distribution of attributes while ensuring the spread is still fair between players.

We use 'divide 50 points to SIZ, DEX, STR and CON and roll 3d6 for APP, with rerolls to APP if it is 5 or below'. This prevents APP from being used as a dump stat, although I do see similarities between the PKs: starting characters invariably had 6d6, SIZ 17-18 (+1 from knighting glory might push it to 19) and STR 15-17. CON tends to be around 13-15 (including +3 Cymric bonus) and DEX 8 - 10. 6d6 is a HUGE advantage in combat. You are pretty much guaranteed to trigger a knockdown check against any human opponent on a hit, and be able to harm even more heavily armored opponents. Once my PKs tasted the power of 6d6, all new PKs have that as their 'must have'. Previously, 5d6 was the norm.

We have also used the variant suggested by Leodegrance, although we didn't make people to lower their stats. Which on hindsight would have addressed one grief that I have with a rolling system: its randomness can create huge disparities between starting PKs. Granted, since Pendragon is a generational game, huge disparities appear. For instance, in our campaign we have just recently knighted 21 years old knight in the same group as a 31 years old Round Table Knight with 15 000 Glory. And naturally there is a disparity there, but it is earned disparity, and what goes around comes around. When that RTK knight dies and that player brings on his wet-behind the ears heir, then the other PK will be the one who is more famous and experienced. I kinda like that mechanism, as it also ensures a sort of cyclical leadership role, giving each knight time to mature before he is pushed to the limelight as the chief spokesperson of the PKs due to his high Glory. I seem to be veering away from the topic, though. :)

My point is that rolling for stats (without any corrective mechanism) tends to create 'my character is crap' reaction, especially if you are playing a char with 50 attribute points and 4d6 damage, and the other guy is playing a RTK shoo-in with 70 attribute points and 6d6 damage. Granted, it depends a bit on what kind of adventures you have. If it is mostly courtly intrigue, stats matter less than skills (APP might be surprisingly important). Even in mostly jousting combat, stats are important: our SIZ 12 weenie knight will almost certainly be knocked from saddle, possibly even automatically with 2xSIZ damage, while our SIZ 18 Paragon will stay in the saddle much more likely. (Since APP plays a relatively minor role in our campaign and is somewhat compensated by high Glory, it is not a HUGE disadvantage to have APP 8 vs APP 14. Sure, the ladies will be more interested in flirting with the higher APP guy, but it still takes heroics to win a heiress, and high Flirting Skill will compensate, too.)

Hmm. Have you considered a system where stats become increasingly expensive after some point? I mean, if you start the characters off from 10 in all stats (= 50 points) and give them 10 points to share to the stats, but everything above 15 costs double points? And you can sell down a stat to 8, but you get only +1 point in return? Granted, you might see SIZ 16, DEX 8, STR 12, CON 13+3, APP 8 clones after that... (My players generally aim for 28 or 34 in SIZ+STR, to have a 'buffer' against that one major wound that wrecks their damage stat during mid-year.)

I suspect that, perhaps, this might prove a bit tedious, in the long run.

Well, I wont say that thats wrong. The problem is, you want a system that don't requires too many re-rolled stat-lines, but also one that don't create ûber-knights (thats what I'm after, at least). It hard to find a balance.


Have you considered 4d6, pick best three? That’s an average of 12.24, so with 1D6+12 for size you can expect an average of 67.75 points for a randomly rolled character. Might be a good start to tinker with.

It's an intriguing idea, one that didn't occur to me. I am afraid, that just as 2D6+6, it will drive up the stats towards high-power PKs. But it a lower average, and doesn't eliminate the mediocre rolls. I do want the system to have the ability to give PKs a mediocre to low stat to struggle with.

I use a rolling point buy system.

This is an interesting system, I think. Thanks for your input, I'll really consider it.

We use 'divide 50 points to SIZ, DEX, STR and CON and roll 3d6 for APP, with rerolls to APP if it is 5 or below'.

I think I have read this system before ...


This prevents APP from being used as a dump stat, although I do see similarities between the PKs: starting characters invariably had 6d6, SIZ 17-18 (+1 from knighting glory might push it to 19) and STR 15-17. CON tends to be around 13-15 (including +3 Cymric bonus) and DEX 8 - 10. 6d6 is a HUGE advantage in combat. You are pretty much guaranteed to trigger a knockdown check against any human opponent on a hit, and be able to harm even more heavily armored opponents. Once my PKs tasted the power of 6d6, all new PKs have that as their 'must have'. Previously, 5d6 was the norm.

So that brings us back to square one.

I did see that drive towards 6D6 as the standard damage in the second and third generation characters in my PGC. Since the characters started out with good Traits and Passions, they went for high stats, including 6D6 damage.



My point is that rolling for stats (without any corrective mechanism) tends to create 'my character is crap' reaction, especially if you are playing a char with 50 attribute points and 4d6 damage, and the other guy is playing a RTK shoo-in with 70 attribute points and 6d6 damage.

Yep, thats why I want some corrective mechanism, that stops PKs from starting to poor or "too good", and keep them all in the 60-70 range. Leondegrance seems to agree with me on this ...


Hmm. Have you considered a system where stats become increasingly expensive after some point? I mean, if you start the characters off from 10 in all stats (= 50 points) and give them 10 points to share to the stats, but everything above 15 costs double points? And you can sell down a stat to 8, but you get only +1 point in return? Granted, you might see SIZ 16, DEX 8, STR 12, CON 13+3, APP 8 clones after that... (My players generally aim for 28 or 34 in SIZ+STR, to have a 'buffer' against that one major wound that wrecks their damage stat during mid-year.)


Its a perfectly viable system, but it brings us back to square one; the group will find the "prefect starting stat line" and most PKs will look the same.

I recognize the "buffer syndrome". Its easy to become cynical, running RPGs.

Here is a simple system:
SIZ: 10+2d3 (14)
DEX: 6+2d3 (10)
STR: 9+2d3 (13)
CON: 9+2d3 (13+3 Cymric=16)
APP: 6+2d3 (10)

For a total Average of 60+3 Cymric. Absolute minimum 50+3, absolute maximum 70+3, with 97% of the values between 55 - 65 (excluding +3 CON Cymric). If you want to shift the average to a bit higher (and I certainly would agree that it is better to aim a bit high, given that the players can't 'tweak' the stats to get the maximum oomph out of them), just add +1 to all stats (or to a subset, like SIZ, STR & CON, to make it more likely that they start with 5d6 from the get go). I'd also add, if the number of points is below 60, more points probably to the lowest stats to bring the total to at least 60.

I think I would like it to be a bit more random.

Well, turns out I'm going to start a new campaign, so now I really have to make up my mind.

Little more random: (min - mean - max)

SIZ: 8+3d3 (11 - 14 - 17)
DEX: 4+3d3 (7 - 10 - 13)
STR: 7+3d3 (10 - 13 - 16)
CON: 7+3d3 (10 - 13 - 16 + 3 Cymric)
APP: 4+3d3 (7 - 10 - 13)

30 + (15 - 45 random points) + 3 Cymric.

The system I used in my latest game I got off here a while back:

For each of DEX, STR, CON, and APP, roll 1d6+10. That's your score.
For SIZ, you have a base score of 14.
Add +1 SIZ for each of the 4 stats you have at 11-12, and -1 for each at 15-16.

This system generates wildly varying characters, but makes it hard to have a really good all-round character who is also really big. Characters tend to be evenly spread between 4d6 and 5d6; but those who are good alround tend to have 4d6, and those who are more variable (some low) tend to have 5d6. You cant roll a stat of 17 or 18 (SIZ might be that high if you roll badly everywhere else), though players can of course still improve stats in the final part of character design, as normal. You also cant roll a stat below 10, so that works out.

If you have terrible rolls, you'll get a high size to make up for it. As it notes, no one is going to be exceptional (but they can change that with squire training), but there's also no dump stats.

Another variation:
SIZ: 11+2d3 (13 - 15 - 17)
DEX: 4+2d6 (6 - 11 - 16)
STR: 6+2d6 (8 - 13 - 18)
CON: 6+2d6 (8 - 13 - 18) + 3 Cymric
APP: 4+2d6 (6 - 11 - 16)

Min: 41 + 3 Cymric
Mean: 63 + 3 Cymric, with a reasonable stat-line giving 5d6 and 31 hit points.
Max: 75 + 3 Cymric

About 90% will have stats between 55 and 71, +3 Cymric.

Thanks Shrall, I do recognize that system.

@Morien, now I have seen so many systems, that I can't decide which to use ...

Depends what you want, Skarpskytten. If you wish only for some variety, use the 2d3 method. If you want some more variety, but wish to keep a rather tight distribution still, 3d3 will give you that. the final 2d6 method is if you wish to have almost 3d6 stats but wish the characters to be mostly playable, still.

The 2d6 method (SIZ 11+2d3) will give you the following damage statistic probabilities:
4d6 (SIZ + STR < 27): 30%. But remember that the players get those 4 miscellaneous picks too in chargen, so the actual probability of ready characters being without 5d6 is very small, 1.5% if all 4 picks are for stats.
5d6 (27 - 32): 65% from rolling.
6d6 (33+): ~5% from rolling. But again, if someone wishes to have 6d6 and isn't afraid to use misc picks for it, 43% -could- have 6d6 by expending all 4 picks.

I think I personally might use the 2d6 system, although I might give some extra stat points for people who roll really poorly.

Another variation:
SIZ: 11+2d3 (13 - 15 - 17)
DEX: 4+2d6 (6 - 11 - 16)
STR: 6+2d6 (8 - 13 - 18)
CON: 6+2d6 (8 - 13 - 18) + 3 Cymric
APP: 4+2d6 (6 - 11 - 16)

Min: 41 + 3 Cymric
Mean: 63 + 3 Cymric, with a reasonable stat-line giving 5d6 and 31 hit points.
Max: 75 + 3 Cymric

About 90% will have stats between 55 and 71, +3 Cymric.

In 4th edition there is a random stats system (2d6+6 for SIZ and 3d6 for the others). But I like this system Morien suggest. Although I would use the 6+2d6 for SIZ.

You could also just use a 2d6+6 for all stats. you could assume that a person who becomes a knight has a healthy live and so his stats should have a minimum of 8.

Although I would use the 6+2d6 for SIZ.


The problem with using 6+2d6 for SIZ is that SIZ 8 screws you up much much more than DEX 8 or even STR 8. You are constantly getting knocked over. We had one SIZ 12 knight amongst SIZ 17 - 18 knights, and the difference in battle was huge.

Although I would use the 6+2d6 for SIZ.


The problem with using 6+2d6 for SIZ is that SIZ 8 screws you up much much more than DEX 8 or even STR 8. You are constantly getting knocked over. We had one SIZ 12 knight amongst SIZ 17 - 18 knights, and the difference in battle was huge.


Agreed. I'm quite happy with the 1d6+12 system. 13 is about the minimum for a PK to have a fair chance to survive in KAP combat.

This is the system I will try:


Special cop-out clause: If you manage to roll a stat-line that you would hate to play or that you think is unplayable, take with the GM.

A. Roll you Statistics:
SIZ: 1d6+12
DEX: 3d6
STR: 3d6
CON: 3d6
APP: 3d6

B. Add your cultural modifiers:
Cymric: +3 CON
Pick: -3 SIZ, +6 DEX, +3 CON, -3 APP

C. If any value is below 8, raise it to 8.

D. Add together all your points. If you have between 61 and 70 points, you are done. Otherwise, proceed to step E1 or E2.

E1. If you have 60 points or less, add one point to all statistics that are not at the cultural maximum. (Thus, you will add five points if no stat is at cultural max). Repeat until you have 61-65 points.

E2. If you have 71 points or more, deduct one point from all statistics that are nine or higher. (Thus, you will subtract five points if all statistics are more than eight). Repeat until you have 66-70 points left.


Thanks for Leondegrance, for the add-subtract-system.